"I always had a really hard time getting into Superman as a kid," Joe Russo admitted...

>"I always had a really hard time getting into Superman as a kid," Joe Russo admitted. "There just wasn’t a lot of vulnerability there for me. I loved Batman. He’s the one DC character I really loved. I found that Martian Manhunter was the Martian Superman. Wonder Woman was the female Superman. There was repetitiveness in their characters."

uproxx.com/movies/russo-brothers-captain-america-civil-war/

Not even the Russo Bros. care for DC heroes, outside of Batman. Which begs the question: Is the odd assortment of alien/god-like heroes in DC Comics the reason why it's so hard to translate them from comics to films? Is that why Batman so easy to make films of?

DC characters are much more interesting.

I don't know what this Marlel shill is talking about.

It's a matter of effort.

They made Clark flawed, vulnerable, relatable in MOS and people got violently asshurt.

this

It's really weird though. Superman was only flawed and vulnerable because of Pa Kent's meddling. If Clark had done what he wanted, he would have ended up the Superman we all know.

>MCU is made by batfags

Take it up with Ayn Rand, satan.

This honestly makes me respect him less. Everyone just wants to repeat and perpetuate the same tired bullshit, it's so annoying.

because they are right

Flash, GL and Batman all have that human component that people like and can relate. They are like Spiderman.

Superman is supposed to be ispirational but all heroes are ispirational so he isn't that unique other than the fact that he is the GOLD STANDARD and thus people should care for some reason.

Well so is the DCEU so I don't see what the problem is.

not sure how I feel about this

as opposed to genius scientist iron man/reed richards/spider-man/dr strange/black panther/antman 1/hulk/etc.

I give up. No one will ever make a good Superman movie or game or anything. Morrison and Eco were the last ones to do so. I just... give up. Do as you wish, Batfgas. Fill the medium with darkness and cynicism. Fill it to the brim with edginess.

You win.

Genius scientist with an alcohol problem. Genius scientist with a family. Genius scientist with a shitty job living with his aunt.

Meanwhile at DC half the characters are "I'm super powerful and here's my alter ego that nobody knows what to do with"

They're not wrong.

so what about Vision?
When i meet vision immediately Martian Man Hunter came to my mind...

>that human component that people like and can relate.

Superman is human in all but physique, thought. That's, like, one of the basics of the characters. GL and Flash are roughly as powerful as superman. And Batman is less human than either of the other 3.

>They are like Spiderman.

I'm guessing you are trying to express what the general audiences think?

let's also not forget that Superman in most iteration is loved by everyone, the city loves him, has a nice girlfriend and friends

Tony has very few friends, a lot of problems and gets shit on constantly

let's not even begin with Spider-Man, with JJJ turning the city against him, Spidey not being able to protect the people he loves very often, trying his best and still getting shit on

This is actually a good point, b/c half of the protagonists in the MCU are the same. Half of them are the same rogue-ish, witty, smartass who use their sense of humor to cover up their insecurities. Like Tony Stark, Peter Quill, Scott Lang, and in the future, Spider-Man.

>muh OP Superman
>Wonderwoman is a female Superman
>Martain Manhunter is a martian Superman
Why don't normies read before judging.
>mfw this is what my friends believe

>le alien that is more human than humans
>he is here to show how humans should act and be because he is so much better than us flawed humans!

>>he is here to show how humans should act and be because he is so much better than us flawed humans!
Considering how shitty most people are, and how Superman is a genuinely nice, kind, moral person, that's not that far from the truth.

>The only two choices are between Superman and Batman
Jesus talk about tunnel vision. Why don't you watch a little Ant-man, user? He loves his daughter and doesn't afraid of anything.

I think it's because of a failure in the balancing act between cynicism and idealism.

>Batman
>darkness and cynicism

What, the underline theme of Batman is hope against all odds. A set of characters trying their hardest to bring hope in a city like Gotham. He is been like that in the comics and movies for years.

yet he is right about Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman

Invulnerability doesn't mean a thing in comics. Even the characters who are "vulnerable" to dying will never die, because they are the main characters of their stories. Even if they DO "die", they eventually return due to some contrived plot.

So anyone who uses an argument like "Superman is lame because he can never get hurt" simply doesn't undsrstand the character.

And this bullshit about "character repetitiveness" is commonplace in Marvel too.

it's easier to just blame everything on Batman and ignore all the other heroes people like

then don't get surprised if people don't care about the patronizing alien coming here to tell us how to live while not having to face any of the common problems people have

>We will never get a good Superman movie because literally everyone are Batfags

WW REALLY shouldn't be just a female Superman. I mean, by nature of her being a FEMALE Superman at all, she should inherently be quite different from Superman, just because the male and female experiences and consciousnesses are quite different from one another.

No one would be saying this shit if more people had a grasp on the character. She should be non-violent and more overtly sexual like in Earth One.

>Tony has very few friends, a lot of problems and gets shit on constantly
It's because Tony is and always has been a fucking asshole and Clark/Superman is a decent human being. Yes, human being.

So, they didnt read Supes. Good, now they can work for DC also.

This. You can tell who doesn't read comic books by who says shit like this. You can bet that 99% of the time, the good guys in Marvel will win and save the day as well. It's all just repackaged bullshit.

>then don't get surprised if people don't care about the patronizing alien coming here to tell us how to live while not having to face any of the common problems people have
Superman probably has a shitton of problems himself. His problems are just on a grander scale.

yes, Tony acts like a real human with his high and lows
meanwhile Superman is the perfect nice guy out of some generic novel

> I found that Martian Manhunter was the Martian Superman. Wonder Woman was the female Superman. There was repetitiveness in their characters.


As opposed to the completely original marvel characters Hyperion, Gladiator, the sentry, thor, Black Bolt, Blue Marvel, the other Hyperion, etc, right?

People got massively assblasted when they tried to make superman a controversial figure and possible threat. Also superman's responsabilities make spiderman's look like a grain of salt. (And he would probably be the first one to tell him that what he does is just as important)

Well, yeah. He's a farmboy at heart. Raised by a nice couple from Kansas. He's also an extremely humble journalist who struggles to get the girl in the original incarnations.

>then don't get surprised if people don't care about the patronizing alien coming here to tell us how to live while not having to face any of the common problems people have

You sound like a fucking pussy, user

It's so much easier to be a piece of shit than a good person.

The problem was they failed to make him likeable

the only people that got mad are the superman fanboys
if you talk about MoS the majority didn't like it because it's a Snyder's movie

superfags bitched so hard they are now bringing back the pre-52 superman to please the fans

>(And he would probably be the first one to tell him that what he does is just as important)

Snyderman would probably topple a bulding while learning on it to brood about the evil men do, then cry and fly away to Arctic to talk to ghosts for few days.

suspension of disbelief user.
Yes anyone reading knows Cap. America/Bat-man isn't dead when the Nazi Dinosaur try's to swallows him but we all wonder how is he gonna get out of this one because he is limited to solutions.

Super-man getting eaten by a Dino? Not as exciting because not only is he near invulnerable to it but his power set leads to such a ridiculous amount of solutions(Eye beams, frost breath, flight) the fight it's over before it started
Even with the Hulk there is some level of excitement because he has to at least hit it or smash something.


>"character repetitiveness" is commonplace in Marvel too
That is very true
I will say that's very true but always give DC props that they at least work with that and try and get you on board with the repetitiveness rather than most of Marvel where unless it's in the family (Spiderverse, Hulk family etc) they pretty much write on off as a joke or just throw them away only to dig them out when they need someone dead

Read some comics please.

that's not an argument
but that's the only answer you Superman fanboys can use

>Generic novel

Nah, it's pretty rare a generic novel with a character like superman. It's cool to bring good people down nowadays. People don't like moral standards becuae they feel like it's patronizing, even thought

Wonder Woman's origin is completely different. She's also a warrior and crosses lines that superman wouldn't. I just mentioned like 10 marvel characters that are more like superman than wonder woman.

This is why you give Superman threats that only HE could deal with. Morrison does it all the time with no problem. Why is everyone else so unimaginative?

Disappointing to hear, but hey just because some one knows fuck all about DC doesn't mean they don't know about Marvel. Russos have done good by Cap

He's right, thought. If you talk shit about a character you haven't read about, why should anyone take your argument seriously?

>suspension of disbelief user.
No. Don't give me that bullshit. This is comic books. Where a human dressed as a bat can get his back broken, and not only still lives, but recovers and continues to fight gods with his own supertechnology.

Just stop.

>Superman is the only good person in comics!

you guys are so delusional

maybe you should stop assuming that people that disagree with you haven't read comics

Clark's struggle isn't against his own flaws, though. Clark's struggle is much more about knowing how to save the world (putting it in a bottle), having the power to do it, and choosing not to.

Just because you're a degenerate doesn't mean everyone is.

he says while attacking people on the internet over fictional characters

Superman wouldn't like you doing that :^)

>superheroes have to be vulnerable

Because that's why Achilles and Perseus or the first Mary Sue, Odysseus were, right?

>maybe you should stop assuming that people that disagree with you haven't read comics
It's not assumption when it's true. What's the last comic you read? Can you even remember?

>No one ever said it, If you need to put words in other people's mouths in order to counter their arguments then you are doing it wrong

>maybe you should stop assuming that people that disagree with you haven't read comics

If someone comes and says "Superman isn't relatable because he's not human" then I would assume that he has probably only watched the animated series or the donner movies because his humanity is one of the basics of the chatacter.

Shit wrong scan, but still kind of fits, nevertheless

Agreed that's why I was fearful of BvS film. We needed Super-man to fight a few more gods before taking on Bats.
It's not bullshit you just don't understand the word that well.
Suspension of disbelief doesn't root it in reality, it's the bar in which people stop enjoying the ride.
We know sound doesn't travel in space but most people don't get upset that space battles have sound. Yes they know it shouldn't happen but the ride is fun enough that they can get around it. But let's say in those battles humans get blasted out of their ship with torn open space suits doing just fine in blackness of space bar skin exposed? Well now you will lose them because it's to ridiculous to handle because it seems unnecessary for entertainment.

Joe Russo also said he didn’t care for Cap while growing up, also I am sure he never touched a Superman or Wonder Woman comic, as for Batman all casuals love him.

Well, at least the positive comments about Batman, Flash and Wolverine tell it's not a company wars thing...

But anyway, i'm sure half the people that say stuff like that just never had the fortune to read the good stories. I was one of them for years myself, as a kid i used to see the cartoon on TV occasionally and it just wasn't compelling to me, as opposed to Batman or Spiderman. Then as a teen i started rationalizing my stance, "he's too powerful! A stereotype! Boring!"
Then i got caught into the MoS hype. It made me curious about the character, started reading recommended stories like ASS or Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, saw the old Donner movies and eventually i fell in love. The semplicity from a bug became a feature to me

What can i say, i just hope people stumble on the right story that can trigger a bit of real appreciation. I can kinda see what he means about WW and MM tho

All those characters are flawed and vulnerable though. Maybe, like, read for a change.

>Odysseus
>mary sue
>spent 20 years to get home and lost his entire crew
>needed constant help from gods and other people

>only watched the animated series
Dude that series really humanized him. It wasn't till late season 2 of JL and Unlimited that he went full dick mode.

>starkfag normie

>Martian Manhunter was the martian Superman
>Wonder Woman was the female Superman

I mean, that's about where the similarities end. You don't hear people saying, "Man, Firestorm is just Superman but with nuclear power instead of solar"

flawed isn't vulnerable you fucking mong

and if Achilles mourning and raging over death of his lover is sign of being vulnerable Superman is twice as vulnerable

Also name one time Perseus was hurt in any way, I'll wait. Not that it matters, the invulnerability argument is 1. stupid 2.incorrect

They made him a flawed autist who was out of touch, uncertain, and bounced around like the plot device he was doing just as he was told down to killing Zod. I found Man of Murder much less relateable than Superman.

except that's not true at all
at the end of they day the message is that a real human would have broken and that Superman is so much better and humans will never come closer no matter how they try

>single-handedly brought down Troy
>invented ways to bypass most of the perils of the journey
>the only one besides Menelaus to actually prosper after the war

horrible, horrible

Good thing the Russos didnt decide to do the fucking Superman movie then. You can not like a character. Snyder has every right to not be a fan of Superman or his surrounding cast.

So he shouldnt be in charge of the damn movies.

This, Batman has taken down motherfucking Darkseid in several ocassions and no one bats an eye.

Superman and Orion struggle with Darkseid, fuck that Batgod shit.

Calm down, Lex.

>no one bats an eye

Nice lie. Also that never happened. He punched him once and then ran away.

so every hero is a mary sue because they win at the end, let's ignore all the fuck ups, the time they needed help and the fact that their plans barely worked and wasted 20 years for a trip that should have taken a month

Invulnerability argument has some merit it's just no one uses it correctly.
The flaw with invulnerability is you have to sell the idea twice as hard because people are first drawn to that strength/flaw.
And I think with Sups they say "invulnerability" when they really mean "over power"
Wolverine is hard to kill but people have always enjoy him every generation because that's all he has is he's hard to kill.
To the masses: Super-man is hard to kill, can fly, survive/breath in space/underwater, shoot heat beams that can melt near anything, freeze anything with his breath, cause a hurricane with his breath, moves faster than light can lift tons on top of tons in weight. I'll stop there but that should paint my point why Super-man is always a tough sell.

This, every director is just a "fan" of the character they get lucky to work with. Snyder, the Russos, etc they're al lfull of shit.

>mary sue

We talking about Rey?

All that did was make Superman sound a hundred times more exciting to me than Wolverine, and this is coming from a guy who used to like Wolverine more until I actually read comics.

you must be one of those people that only care abou power levels

>Only superman can possibly be this strong willed, human's don't come close

Except for Batman or Spiderman. Wait, still too out there? What about Daredevil? He wears a costume so it doesn't count? Then what about Jim Gordon. He's as strong willed as the rest of them and they are completely made of flesh and blood. Comic books are filled with strong willed characters with different power levels, several of them are humans. Stop trying to justify yourself

As I was saying, the message is that his character was molded by humans, he is human, no matter how hard Luthor wants him not to be. At that point Luthor is so powerful that any power difference that there might be between a human and a krytonian wouldn't matter against him.

Also

>Superman is too strong willed, humans don't come close.

>Superman doesn't know the human struggle, he can't tell us how to live because he cannot know suffering.

Every. time.

Final Crisis, the stuff with Supergirl, him going after Damian's corpse.

It has him one upping Darkseid not necessarily in a fist fight but it's too fucking much, the stuff with Supergirl being even more ridiculous because he actually fights him there and survives being punches by him because of bullshit armor.

>focusing on his sheer power instead of the character itself
what are you a gokufag?

Batman, Spiderman and even Gordon have had their will broken multiple times.

Outside of Red Son I can't remember something similar happening to Superman.

Gokufags are worse because Goku is more OP than Superman and he has the most boring personality with none of the responsibility.

He does raises quite a valid point. It's more believable to see superman struggle with moving the earth or thor ravaging planets than Batman defeating gods and Spiderman fighting firelord.

Also, you don't need to hurt superman physically in order to hurt him. He's a man who saves people. You just have to make him fail. Make people fear him. Question the very idea of him. Make him break his code. Otherwise how do you think that people like the freaking toyman can get a place in his rogues gallery?

There's value to be had there. Most hardcore fans like the characters to be flawless, though. They value them BECAUSE they are gods, not in spite of the fact. Obviously we've learned this because when Snyder gave Superman flaws, people lost their shit.

>Spiderman

This guy sold his marriage to the devil because he couln't stand the fact that his ancient old aunt was going to die. Even fucking God told him to let it go; that his life would go badly if he didn't.

Then boom... Gwen fucked Osborn and had his kids. MJ hates him. His body was taken by Octavius. A shitload of stupid crap happened all because ONE man did not had the willpower to go on with his life.

Its just a matter of effort.

Gods can be flawed. The greek myth is constructed on the flaws of ira deities.

A lot of people just see the extremes of the DC characters.

>Goku is more OP than Superman
Oh boy, here we go again...

flawed, yeah
vulnerable, eeeh, not so much. not immortal, but if you consider anyone who's not immortal as vulnerable you have a very narrow sight

You know that was an editorial mandate

Neil Gaimam story where he and Hal go to hell, Supes just fucking broke there.

Yeah. But it still reflects on the story. Like it or not.

>Final Crisis
He shot the mortal vessel of Darkseid with a gun, literally something anyone could do. You are also forgetting that at the same time it was a team effort with all the heroes doing something to bring Darkseid down.
>the stuff with Supergirl
Being beaten you mean?
>Damian's corpse
Which is the one I said. Let's forget it was a lesser manifestation of Darksed and he was weaker, let's also forget the paraistic suit that was literally killing Batman and let's forget that he just stalled him long enough to harvest some energy.

Like I said he never took him down.

Supertards are by far and away the easiest people to trigger on this board.

>There just wasn’t a lot of vulnerability there for me
>a piece of green rock can take him out
I have given up defending Superman at this point because people just don't want to like him.
I have my conjectures about why people don't want to like Superman, but whatever I say, people will just find another fault with him and use that as an excuse. Too often they just go "He's boring" or "He's flawless"

Fuck off.

He's op in the sense that he's one of the most powerful beings in his universe, while superman doesn't even come close to DC's cosmic deities. He's OP in the sense that pretty much every other Z warrior is useless when he's around, except for vegeta (Even Gohan has been surpassed since after the buu saga ended). He's op in the sense that every saga ends up with him being so much more powerful than before in some sort of endless, repetitive cycle.

I find this only to be true post MoS. Ever since then, the "MUH SUPERMAN" factor has been fucking turned to eleven. They've surpassed Batfags as the most fun people to fuck with.

anybody knows which story was that? I'd very much like to read it

correct

You are not the masses
congrats you are an autistic snowflake but most people don't want their heroes to be a Swiss Army Knife that can solve anything with little effort or rather be scaled against giants and gods which usually further detaches readers.
Spider-man has a slew of powers but is usually more accepted than Super-man. Why do you think that is? Both came from poor backgrounds, both had to deal with being the "that kid" in school both got jobs with the paper, both have the same color coordination with their suit. Both fight crime. But Spidey is more well received. Why? Because his power set is just low enough to put him with everyday street people and villains, it's just low enough that he can be put in jeopardy on a human level. That he has to pick who he saves and who gets away. That all his problems arise from limitations most of which are outside of his control. Super-man doesn't have that excuse, his problems are limited because he set the bar a true "good guys finish last" motto which on paper sounds neat but in practice is either boring or contrite because we as the readers know at anytime he can say "fuck it Im done" and become Emperor of earth, hell that story has been done 4+ times every generation, super-man takes over the earth #2567. That's the flaw, when you are reading about a near god doing near god things it gets to detach for most readers but to read a near god clean up the city it lose it's charm because the threat isn't there.