Stark wants The Avengers to follow the Sokovia Accords, which allows countries to dictate the actions of The Avengers.
But if those 117 countries that signed the Accords included North Korea, Eritrea and other countries with horrible human rights records,
That pretty much means that The Avengers are doing work approved by Third World dictatorships.
That's kind of scary.
This means that if North Korea has its own supervillain threatening the country, The Avengers (an American-based team) has to respond to that in accordance with the accords, which means that The Avengers are helping to ensure the existence of a dictatorship for the next few decades.
I don't want superheroes doing dirty work for dictatorships. The reason why The Sokovia Accords happened was because it allows countries to force superheroes to do dirty work for them.
Last month, The UN held a meeting about the problems with the War on Drugs and while countries like the USA, Mexico, Canada and Colombia said that the current laws do not work, in the end the UN still pushes for the same drug laws because countries like China and Russia managed to veto any discussion on reforming drug laws. Why should we trust China and Russia with superheroes when we can't even trust them in reforming drug laws?
It blows my mind that Tony Stark is willing to allow countries like Saudi Arabia and China to rule over The Avengers. That's the problem. Yes, superheroes can be dangerous on their own, but superheroes whose acts are sanctioned by dictatorships are WORSE.
Is Tony Stark a fucking idiot? He's basically selling Captain America to North Korea with The Sokovia Accords.
Cooper Bennett
Tony let's his emotions and issues control him too much.
It's almost like he enjoys feeling responsible for bad things and feeling guilty
He needs a fucking therapist.
Doc Samson or even Dr.Bong
Gavin Phillips
No two people can be this stupid.
Benjamin Bailey
So tell me why countries like Saudi Arabia dictating the actions of The Avengers is a good thing.
Jason Robinson
It is strange they didn't make more of a point of that. I understand not mentioning China by name to not interfere with the box office and not mentioning North Korea by name because of The Interview, but Cap is still really vague about his actual objections.
Josiah Bailey
Stark's entire superhero career has always been driven by guilt.
Imagine if he was raised by Jewish relatives
Henry Young
Looking at Stark's HUD just reminds me of a question; is JARVIS ever coming back or are we going to be listening to FRIDAY from now on?
Michael Watson
The movie states that the sanctions had to be a approved by the UN before the Avengers actually engage not one single country you fucking idiot. The Avengers can't be biased on who or what they should save in times of crisis so whether they have to dispatched on North Korea doesn't change the fact that they're an entirely neutral party. Cap doesn't want to be told whether or not its okay to save someone that's why OP is a fucking retard. The argument he makes is that bad shit is going to happen regardless and they should take responsibility not leave it to the government to be their lapdogs as penitence.
Brayden Robinson
"OY VEY CAP THAT'S ANTISEMITIC REMEMBER THE 6 GOYRILLION"
Adam Sanchez
JARVIS is Vision
Ethan Phillips
Because Saudi Arabia wouldn't be able to do so on their own. They would need the support of other countries. And the point wasn't to make it so that any and all problems any nation has, the Avengers get sent in.
Also, just because they are dictatorships, it doesn't mean that every single decision they could possibly make politically is evil. Saddam Hussain did wonders for tackling illiteracy for example.
The point of the Sokovia Accords wasn't to give the UN its own superhuman taskforce, it was to give accountability to an independent, lets face it, military organisation.
The point was so that when this group of superpowered people just ups and decides to intervene in something, like they did in Lagos, that they have permission from an international body so that when your loved ones are killed as a result of their Avenging, you're not just expected to suck it up, deal with it and move on.
It's to stop the Avengers from doing whatever the fuck they want with no consequences when it all goes tits up.
Despite this, I'm still pro Cap
Christ you're dumb
Jonathan Cox
We don't know what the Sokovia Accord says exactly. It's a large book with all kinds of info. The only thing that we know is that 117 signed the Accord and that the Avenger ought to be controlled, but we don't know under which condition.
Jason Young
>Stark wants The Avengers to follow the Sokovia Accords, which allows countries to dictate the actions of The Avengers.
>But if those 117 countries that signed the Accords included North Korea, Eritrea and other countries with horrible human rights records,
>That pretty much means that The Avengers are doing work approved by Third World dictatorships.
Are you fucking stupid?
William Jenkins
>That pretty much means that The Avengers are doing work approved by Third World dictatorships. >That's kind of scary.
I don't see how it's scarier than superheroes doing work approved by non-dictatorships. Unless we're talking about a fantasy version of the US that actually cares about democracy and world peace.
Cooper Howard
Also: the UN is actually the only institution that decides whether or not the Avengers should intervene in crisis....es... or not.
Joshua Adams
>The movie states that the sanctions had to be a approved by the UN before the Avengers actually engage not one single country you fucking idiot. The Avengers can't be biased on who or what they should save in times of crisis so whether they have to dispatched on North Korea doesn't change the fact that they're an entirely neutral party.
The problem though is that "The UN" is comprised of 200 nations and all have dumb shitty agendas.
Imagine if The Avengers have to find a Hydra cell in Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia can just call in a "no vote" and convince every other Sunni nation to call in "no" and then lobby the US congress and the British Parliament to vote "no" in dispatching the Avengers which results in a veto.
That's pretty much what The Sokovia Accords will do. It's a bureaucratic red tape that will the Avengers' work much more useless.
I used to work for UNICEF, and every single call for UN peacekeepers to Darfur gets shot down by the US under the lobbying of Saudi Arabia and other Sunni nations. The Sokovia Accords will be exactly that.
Well, the US does not starve its citizens nor arrests journalists into work camps
>Also, just because they are dictatorships, it doesn't mean that every single decision they could possibly make politically is evil. Saddam Hussain did wonders for tackling illiteracy for example.
But North Korea and Eritrea does not have Saddam.
And besides, there's China. China can VETO the Avengers into doing anything that China wants. That's the fear surrounding the Sokovia Accords.
Bentley Johnson
BEST KOREA doesn't even have a seat on the UN security council you dumb fuck. It never has.
Owen Jenkins
But Best Korea has CHINA as an ally, and a lot of issues with the Nuclear talks came from China supporting North Korea.
If Kim Jong Un wants Black Widow to be his personal sex slave, he can just bribe Xi Jingping to veto that shit in The Security Council. That's how they got DHL to operate in North Korea.
Nolan Cruz
I don't think the MCU does too much real world political shenanigans, they already had enough goofiness with everyone is fucking Hydra. The movies aren't the only things that go on in the universe, they have other-worldly threats on Agents of Shield and stuff so I would guess they would ignore the real life political bickering mostly.
Landon Gomez
My point was that not every single possible decision made by a dictatorship is inherently evil, just like every decision made by a democracy is inherently good. Way to miss it user.
Cooper Lopez
>Ultron is going to destroy humanity and turn the world into his playground >Okay I'll call a meeting of the member states to discuss the Avengers intervening in the Sovokian situation. We should have this resolved and approved in the next two weeks.
Isaiah Hernandez
>If Kim Jong wants Black Widow to be his personal sex slave
Right, now I know you're a fucking moron.
Also, China aren't as pally pally with NK as you might think. Yes they are allies, and yes China publicly supports them, but that doesn't mean they bend over backwards to help them every time they ask for something.
China doesn't need Best Korea, but Best Korea certainly needs them.
Learn to international politics user.
Michael Barnes
>government lets one dude infiltrate their facility and get a damn interview with their most high profile prisoner >tony says the avengers need to be overseen by these people
Ian Cox
No JARVIS is never coming back, he's part of Vision now.
Angel Gutierrez
>As you all know the entirety of our world peacekeeping force was recently co-opted by a sinister Nazi organisation in an attempt to set up a fascistic world regime >That's behind us now and I'll glad, Tony, that you're in agreement with us there is no way any of them could possibly still compromise us or that ever happen again. It's with great pleasure that I put all of the people who stopped that happening directly under the control of a new government organisation
Tyler Smith
>China can VETO the Avengers into doing anything that China wants
I don't think you understand what "veto" means.
Evan Kelly
>If Kim Jong Un wants Black Widow to be his personal sex slave, he can just bribe Xi Jingping to veto that shit in The Security Council. >Whelp Natasha, I know this goes against the universal declaration of human rights, but China have spoken
This is quite possibly the stupidest statement I've read on here in regards to how international political relations work, and I occasionally browse Sup Forums
Well done.
Cooper Edwards
Dude, i do learn intpol. I WORKED IN ONE!
And no, the NK-China hostility is just smoke and mirror. Behind the scenes, China-NK relationship is still special like US-Israel relationship.
China does not want NK refugees and the USFK near the Yalu River.
Camden Butler
>Implying China cares about the universal declaration of human rights
Evan Reyes
No, but the rest of the UN do you mad fuck.
Then why do you not seem to understand what a veto is?
Christian Richardson
>Tony, Ross here recently created an uncontrollable metahuman thread in direct opposition to a member of the Avengers. I think you'll understand why he's the right choice to be the Avengers' contact under the Accords.
Cooper Kelly
I've seen vetoes being used for dumb shit by SC members on behalf of other countries.
The UN Security Council is basically as stupid as The US Congress.
Grayson Moore
Race to the bottom with some of their shit like getting pissy at online bullies, video games, or anmie or whatever that shit was. I would guess MCU UN aren't the complete mouth-breathers that real life UN is, still occasionally corrupt of course but not fucking Saudi Arabia is head of human rights watch retarded.
Nicholas Edwards
>I would guess MCU UN aren't the complete mouth-breathers that real life UN is That's an assumption I'm not about to make.
Cooper Jones
Do you want the plots to get even dumber or more convoluted?
Joshua Thomas
No. But I assume they will anyway
Ayden Lewis
I thought it was the UN Security Council who could approve Avenger action, not the whole General Assembly?
Wyatt Allen
This could be solved if the Avengers had become a NATO organization instead of a UN one. This keeps Russia and China from having a say while still making them accountable to oversight.
Alexander Jenkins
The whole concept of the Accords was iffy and vaguely described to begin with, and should probably not be taken at face value (for instance, do any of the world governments have any actual leverage on the Avengers to begin with? Aren't the Avengers more like a company now than a government organization? Hell, I don't think Vision even has a nationality...)
Like the technobabble in all Marvel movies, think of it more as a tool to show Tony's growing persecution complex, and try not to look to hard at the whole deal.
Eli Ortiz
>WE NEED TO BE PUT IN CHECK >but before that let me do several unchecked things
tony is pretty complex
Jaxson Price
Why the fuck do you keep using the word veto if you're gonna use it wrong?
Matthew Morris
Tony just wanted a situation where someone else could be blame for his fuckups. That's what the Accords were for
Joshua Gutierrez
Also Tony was saying they'd iron out the details afterwards too or something. If an incident occurs that is far worse that the Avengers would clearly have been able to contain better they'd obviously have a lot of leverage in making the UN or whatever control group is assigned to grant them some flexibility, which I imagine is going to be the case before Infinity War, they have 5 movies I think before then or something.
Jaxson Morris
He wants to put power in the hands of people who were going nuke New York
He wants to put power in the hands of people, a bunch of whom are probably Hydra or have links to Hydra
Cap mentions neither of these things.
Josiah Garcia
>He wants to put power in the hands of people who were going nuke New York that one really bothered me like what the hell tony
Ethan Butler
The way he says that "agendas change" makes me think he was referring to wishy-washy Western powers anyway. Besides, it's places like America that are provably prone to Hydra infiltration, not North Korea.
Isaac Murphy
>Hell, I don't think Vision even has a nationality...
Birthright American citizen! Suck it, Trumpies.
Ayden Jackson
I would think most of those people were dealt with after Winter Soldier.
Noah King
Either way, he's still handing power over to Ross of all people. A fairly obvious villain.
James Murphy
But he was made in South Korea, America is just where he was turned on.
Levi Brown
>a bunch of whom are probably Hydra The release of the Hydra files left only a few people like the covert Russian agent out there, and he was hardly active, he was a paranoid guy in a shitty house jumping at shadows.
With 117 nations signing, that means that at LEAST 79 nations weren't involved, as Marvel has several more nations than the real world.
The Avengers would end up answering to the UN Security Council, the same body that has tried to control them from the start, except now Fury isn't active to run interference for them.
This thread is terrible, the OP is dumb as fuck, and someone needs to make a better thread with a less idiotic OP.
Gavin Carter
Life doesn't start at conception in New York, user. It fits.
Birthright citizen as fuck.
Jordan Moore
Having the UN in charge of you to do anything is code for"we don't want you to do anything"
Lincoln Moore
The World Security Council isn't the UN Security Council.
Evan Kelly
The World Security Council is a made up thing that allows the Marvel Universe to use the member nations of the Security Council but "lol not really".
Levi Allen
but you're alright with them doing dirty work for the american dictatorships?
Listen to me, just because you have a nice car and an ipod doesn't mean it's not a dictatorship.
Jason Parker
>"Guys, the super heroes will clearly do what is right every time" >"Guys, just trust us, okay?"
We don't even allow people to carry pea-shooters and have rudimentary authority over other people without burring them in red-tape. Why the fuck should we let people will super powers and WMD weapons waltz around doing whatever the fuck they want.
We might as well just let people maintain private armies and let them decide for themselves when and where to use it.
Luke Bennett
>"North Korea can just bribe China"
Are you 12 years old?
You do know that NK gets basically all their shit FROM China, right? They basically don't produce anything.
Evan Hall
>We don't even allow people to carry pea-shooters ... without burring them in red-tape.
Sounds like someone isn't living the American Lifestyle
Tyler Ortiz
My point wasn't really about CARRYING them more about how they're allowed to actually use them.
That is, a police officer has far greater leniency to shoot a nig than Schmoe Average.
Luis Ward
The fact that he seemed to think that China could make someone Kim Jongs sex slave is far more solid proof that they are 12 years old. NK bribing China is just the icing on that shit cake
Logan Campbell
Jeez. It's like this movie was just begging to invite Sup Forums to Sup Forums.
Luis Barnes
Why do people who save the planet need to be regulated by the UN? There a shitload of countries in the UN and a lot of them are run by corrupt governments. Doesn't it make more sense to let them do their own thing instead?
Aaron Gomez
The Avengers independently doing cool shit makes the nations of the world feel smaller in the pants, so they gotta try to be all assertive and shit and chimp out with the Accords.
Easton Smith
>UN security council
They explicitly state that it isn't the security council making the decisions about when to call in the Avengers.
Did no one party attention to the fucking movie? Or are you being retarded on purpose?
Justin Phillips
i wonder if any of those countries are Latveria, Stark...
Aaron Sullivan
you know there isnt
makes me wonder with all the shit the universe is lacking who do they even have in the raft prison
Nicholas Butler
But the security council members have veto power over any action the UN takes, unless the Accord is a specific exception. Which makes no sense.
Brody Reed
Abomination probably.
Xavier Gray
This whole ordeal is dealt with wayy more smoothly in Daredevil S2 (basically same storyline, just replace stark with DD and Cap America with Punisher; DD wants the justice system to have the last word, while Punisher is a vigilante).
and also, in NO UNIVERSE is Cap. America right in the argument. he basically wants all supers to be unregulated and only dealt with when the time comes. That is the kind of shit that gets millions of people killed >wah wah muh Bucky >wah wah muh friendz
btw can I just say, that that scene in the prison was completely unecessary. Why the fuck would Disney go out of their way to antagonize Stark when EVERYONE that was imprisoned was imprisoned due to their own stupidity?
Aaron Gomez
>The movie states that the sanctions had to be a approved by the UN
Remind me, user, which two authoritarian governments have permanent seats on the UN security council which would, presumably, need to authorize any Avengers mission?
Blake Anderson
>I know they've saved humanity from destruction several times but can we really trust them to do the right thing? The UN is much more trustworthy
Joshua Mitchell
but isnt he a gamma vilain and dont they go to the cube? though i guess the other prison dont exist like the big house and the other one
so like is the raft even that big a deal in the absence of all the other prisons?
Cameron Watson
>But the security council members have veto power over any action the UN takes
Then why would Ross mention it at all?
Isaac Adams
>Tony nearly ends the world with artificial intelligence >nobody else does anything bad aside from Wanda >WE NEED TO BE PUT IN CHECK
Why didn't Tony just submit himself to government oversight on his projects, since he was clearly the only problem?
Jaxon Nguyen
>It's a "The general populace can see into the Avengers' minds" episode >It's a "If people do a good thing then we should give them unlimited authority to do whatever they want forever" episode >It's a "If people mean well then they could surely NEVER do anything harmful" episode >It's a "I'm a literal fucking toddler" episode
Hudson Stewart
Swallow a dick. Cap is right, Cap is always fucking right. Cap is never in a situation where he is wrong.
Ethan Young
Reminder that Tony was literally the only one with the problem, and projected his internal demons onto everyone else.
>abloo bloo bloo Hulk killed two people with rubble while saving the world from aliens, someone stop this madman!
AoU was literally all Tony's fault, and if he's so concerned about his actions he should have just submitted himself to government oversight. Banner and Thor have done literally nothing wrong.
Wyatt Foster
is the daredevil's activity supervised by a governing body?
... and im pretty sure that argument in DD was about justifying killing bad guys. Zemo appeared to be alive to me. Loki is still alive as well.
Connor Phillips
In the comics he'd go to the cube but until they introduce any of the other prisons I just assume they all go to the Raft...well the ones that survive anyway. How many MCU villains are actually still alive?
Adrian Young
They saved the world from Aliens.
They saved the world from Ultron. Or are you going to assume that everyone knew Tony made Ultron straight away?
One of them is literally a national hero, probably above the Level that Sir Winston Churchill is to the British.
>Implying that the US army doesn't do some shady as fuck shit sometimes, and yet people still support our troops to the point that criticising the military openly could get your ass kicked >Implying that after saving the world twice, they wouldn't be viewed in the same way
Angel Hernandez
They are the heroes of the entire planet. If you can't trust the people who have saved the human race multiple times, can you trust the UN?
Josiah Brooks
>It's a "The government and general populace should act on information they haven't been given" Episode >It's a "The government and general populace should unquestioning accept information they have no way to verify" Episode >It's a "They haven't done anything bad or abusive yet so that means they never ever could" Episode >It's a "I think this is only about collateral damage" Episode >It's a "I'm still a literal toddler goo goo ga ga where's that nipple?" Episode
Asher Ward
Red Skull isn't dead, just.....Somewhere thanks to the Cube
The real Mandarin is out there somewhere, so is Trevor
Loki is still about
Thanos
Zemo
The Collector could be seen as something of a villain.
Claw is still alive
James Price
> not able to admit he made any wrong decisions so how's Pepper doin', Tony?
Chase Bell
Banner is at fault for being a limpwristed pussy who went with Tony's ideas just because he said so. Banner knew it was a bad idea, but he helped Tony make Ultron anyways.
Wyatt Morgan
Who said anything about the government's knowledge? I'm saying that if Tony was so concerned, he should have submitted himself to oversight and not forced everyone else to as well.
I'm sure Russia and China will be very eager to vote yea on allowing the Avengers to intervene in humanitarian crises in their client states.
Jonathan Long
but who is in the raft besides abomination?
zemo isnt even at the fucking cube. they have him in a box at berlin chilling with the hobbit
Caleb Ward
If some supervillain was threatening the North Korean people I'm sure the Avengers will want to help anyway, even though it extends the dictatorship. Lesser of two evils and all that.
Matthew Wright
And Abomination, Nebula and several others.
I don't understand this meme, it's Batmanslaughter who kills most of his enemies.
Ryan James
zemo isnt at the raft i meant
Daniel Peterson
To be fair, Best Korea would probably have supermen of their own. Vastly inferior supermen, but supermen none the less
Mason Cox
Downey Jr has said recently that he's bringing back Gweneth Paltrow into the MCU.
Thomas Foster
What have the avengers done that warrants oversight like this, Wanda fucked with the Avengers and they forgave her but I'm struggling to think of her as anything but an accomplice.Sure she should be held accountable though. The only other Avenger that's fucked up is Tony and now he's saying that the team fucked up, He's the only one to causes the problems they fight. New York was an alien invasion and without the Avengers the city would have been nuked which still wouldn't stop it. Washington was secret Nazis which clearly wasn't cap's Falcon's or Black Widow's fault. Sokovia was all on Stark and Banner and even then mostly Stark because he bullied his reluctant toadie into it.
Isaac Ross
And the Leader
And Justin Hammer
Blake Scott
More than I thought then I still wish we had more though, it feels a little hollow without more vilains.
Lucas Hill
Zemo is just a guy with superior internet skills. Why would he be at the raft? The human Avengers are at the raft not because they can't be held otherwise, but because they have friends like The Hulk and Thor.
Jose Hall
Rescue when?
Sebastian Baker
Zola could potentially come back, if they made a copy of his brain or something
Asher Diaz
With Zola taunting them with the whole "cut of a head" thing, he's certainly got himself a backup.