Is told that all these fights are creating too much collatoral damages

>is told that all these fights are creating too much collatoral damages
>keeps getting into more fights and causing more collateral damage
>too busy being all "MUH BUCKY" to realize he keeps making things worse, jeopardizing innocents and making himself look bad
>every character in the movie is trying to solve things by saying "dude, Cap. Just listen to us, man. Please." Even Tony is trying to be diplomatic, and he was all "NAH IT'S MY SUIT. SUCK MY DICK, CONGRESS LOL"
>chooses to solve all of his problems with punches
>ends up getting his friends locked up in a prison in the middle of the ocean, separating at least two from their families and kids
Remind me again why I'm supposed to root for him? "NO U MOVE"? That just sounds childish, especially when it's being spoken out loud.

Even in that final shot, he looks more like a villain. I sided with him in the comics, but his side of the argument was so bare.

He was literally being naruto/sasgay tier with this shit, Tony was right

>Remind me again why I'm supposed to root for him?
They're entirely reactionary and never start the fights that would destroy the world, they're the ones that stop it. Unless you prefer the alternative of Thanos-overrun Earth, HYDRA controlling the world, and/or total annihilation via So-long-Earth-kovia.

Tony was right in the comics too, it was just his execution that was flawed and turned evil so that Cap would appear to be right

> implying he wasn't trying to leave the airport peacefully
> implying tony didn't start the confrontation
> implying muh bucky wasn't a frame job
> implying he didn't bust his friends out of jail
> OP wants to see an innocent man assassinated by special forces for a crime he did not commit
> OP doesn't realize that the price of freedom is high and a price he is unwilling to pay

Cap did nothing wrong

>Remind me again why I'm supposed to root for him? "NO U MOVE"? That just sounds childish, especially when it's being spoken out loud.
have you never stood for anything in your life?
jesus man, give a fuck about SOMETHING.

Because it was Tony's side ignoring investigation and due process.

Captin America is like Superman.
It doesn't matter what they actually say the have the moral superiority by default

Cap is tied with Loki as the best Marvel movie villain

I believe in what Tonyand the others were trying to do, though.

Steve really couldn't rationalize anything beyond the first argument. Things kept escalating and escalating and he just didn't care or show remorse.

You guys act like the UN on Marvel Earth is the UN here. They mobilized and would have taken Bucky, I believe, had not Cap interfered. They did that shit in minutes.

They found Bucky. Steve used their information to track him down. Working for the UN makes sense. They have the resources, they're not afraid to use them. The situation, had they not decided to go all libertarian on it, would have had them access to more information and some much needed grown up decision making.

More planning can't be a bad thing for them considering that their on the fly shit while apparently saves the day also gets a lot of innocent people flattened by buildings.

The dumbest fucking thing about this movie is how many issues Cap caused and in the end, Bucky ends up frozen again anyway what the fuck was the point of this movie

NEITHER SIDE IS 100% RIGHT OR WRONG

THAT'S THE FUCKING POINT. THAT UNREASONABLE ARGUMENT CREATING A RIFT THAT IS IMPASSIBLE BY ANY MEANS.

So then any unresolved animosity between these characters can be forced into the light and drama can happen.

Zemo's plan was to make Steve think the Winter Soldier thing was too urgent to sit down and talk it out. If Steve had cooperated peacefully literally none of the problems would have happened.

They were literally shown investigating Bucky and processing him as criminally insane.

If Tony hadn't been such an ass and taken a half a second to listen it wouldn't have happened.

They sent a fucking death squad after him.

Only because Cap forced their hand and got to him first.

this

>the mess in Nigeria
>the mess trying to save Bucky
>the mess in the airport
>the mess in the prison at the end
Literally everyone is going "Cap don't make things worse" and he's all "I'LL SHOW YOU WORSE"

Maybe I'd care a little if Bucky was at all likable and worth endangering all of those people and jeopardizing the Avengers.

You guys do remember that Steve was just about to agree with Tony when Tony mentioned he put Wanda under house arrest.

"God dammit Tony that's my EXACT grievance you played into."

>the mess in Nigeria
If only Cap had let the bad guys attack that building and get away with the biological weapon in the first place literally none of this shit would have gone down.

>They sent a fucking death squad after him.
He was an armed and dangerous killer with known mental problems. It was a totally reasonable call.

How did you watch the movie and not understand they were both right, that's the point.
there needs to be some sort of responsibility.
Mass global politics ISN'T it.

>hey cap
>what
>Bucky
>NOT COOL THAT'S MY TRIGGER WORD
>heh, messing with you sure is a blast

these threads are proof that the russos are the true rusemasters

both sides have their valid points, both sides are flawed. both have their ideological arguments but both were affected by emotion. you aren't supposed to root for one side exclusively.

He doesn't even say it in the movie. Peggy's niece or whoever delivers it in the eulogy

2/10 movie marvels finished

If all the governments in the world working together isn't the proper authorities, who is?

>"NO U MOVE"? That just sounds childish, especially when it's being spoken out loud.

That's actually a quote from a famous writer

I pretty distinctly remember Steve trying to talk first before he did ANYTHING.

The airport fight shouldn't have happened because Tony should've been able to take Steve at his word there and said "Well he gave me 36 hours, so lets press that as hard as we can"

And then still try to beat the shit out of Bucky and Cap because watching anyone kill your mom will fucking send you into a rage tornado.

>Nations of the World all agree that a guy from 1940's Brooklyn who had learning about what the Cold War was on his to-do list last time we saw him probably can't be trusted to know what's best for every nation in the world, so they ask that they be involved in the decision making process before he and his buddies start running in

>"NO TONI, U MUV"

MCU Cap was pretty unreasonable in this

Nigga they were breaching that shit with heavy weapons drawned and they started shooting the moment they breached the room.

Good, because it's a dumb speech.

governments are controlled by people with interests and those interests can get in the way of making the "right" decision.

2 people working together can get more done than 1000

I don't know, probably yo mama.

>I pretty distinctly remember Steve trying to talk first before he did ANYTHING.


"Hey, should we try telling Tony, Natasha, and the rest of them about the conspiracy we just discovered?"

"Nah, they probably won't buy it, so let's not even try to explain it as we steal their airplane."

People who aren't fooled by a scooby-doo mask.

>The airport fight shouldn't have happened because Tony should've been able to take Steve at his word there and said "Well he gave me 36 hours, so lets press that as hard as we can"
This assumes Tony should believe that Cap's judgement is right. Because if Cap is wrong about Zemo using the super soldiers (which he was), then the 36 hours would be used up for nothing and all of the Avengers would have the military ramming their asses.

he literally told tony about the super soldiers and the fake doctor

>so let's not even try to explain it as we steal their airplane."
He specifically did try that.

This. The whole thing could have been avoided if Tony just said "Fine we'll take all 12 of us to your secret compond you claim is in Siberia and see what's up. And if nothing's there you're coming back with us."

Instead he adamantly refuses to believe anything even though 4 other people are backing Cap's story and switches to attack mode.

>Being a vigilante is OK as long as you're really fucking strong

Captain America sure is ignorant of the laws of the country he claims to fight for

The super soldiers thing is a distraction from the fact that he did identify the source of the problem. Going there resolves the issue regardless of the status of some evil communists.

That's the logic behind dictatorships.

Checks and balances intentionally make it harder for anyone to enforce their will.

>If all the governments in the world working together isn't the proper authorities, who is?

117 governments in the MCU is closer to half the world governments. And it's nearly impossible to get a significant number of world governments to agree on ANYTHING other than "I guess we won't do that thing that would make the world better".

All the Sokovia Accord amounted to was a Cease and Desist order.

Does saying "There's a guy trying to do wake up a bunch of fucked up super soldiers" really fall under "judgement"?

I distinctly remember Team Cap (specifically ANTS) throwing the first punch to be fair.

>being a vigilante is OK as long as you're a good person

everything checks out

and if this were reality i would be inclined to agree but this is the MCU where Hydra is running around influencing god knows how many governments, subcommittees, and special interest groups

>All the Sokovia Accord amounted to was a Cease and Desist order.
Hey you never know, they might be allowed to go to conflict zones but just not allowed to fire their weapons.

It's an assumption Cap is making that turns out to be wrong.

That wasn't even...

"I want to help these people but North Korea said no" is what he's against.

Which is, again, a pretty valid thing when you want to help a whole world. He doesn't want the biggest guns for goods to be in the pockets of a bunch of politicians who DON'T have everyone's best interests in mind.

tony made the first "move" by telling spidey to web up cap.

>"Hey, should we try telling Tony, Natasha, and the rest of them about the conspiracy we just discovered?"
That's exactly what he did

The fact still remains they'd be tracking down the guy responsible for all the murders to begin with.

>all these fights are causing too much collateral damage
There was a giant space worm tearing down New York City streets while an army of flying aliens were buzzing around kill civilians.
A city was literally lifted from the ground and was going to drop onto the Earth's surface killing all life on Earth
A guy in a mask was going to steal a biological weapon to sell to god knows who and then set off a suicide bomb that would have killed people regardless of where it was targeted.

The world was lucky that there was a team of super humans there to take care of each of these situations. How the fuck is there supposed to not be collateral damage. How the fuck is would regulating the Avengers stop collateral damage. That scene with the mother pissed me off. Sorry your son died but literally the entire world would have died if that city had crashed into the Earth

The only situation I could understand would be Hulk rampaging in the city but half of that is Tony's fault for fighting the giant monster within a city. Most of everything is Tony's fault and Vision even says it in the movie
>reveals he's Iron Man because of his massive ego
>draws super heroes out of the woodwork
>creates an AI that tries to destroy the world
>tries to lump everyone in to share the responsibilities for shit that was his fault
>Cap tells him to fuck off
>Y-YOU JUST STARTED A WAR PAL
>MUH DEAD PARENTS
>MUH PEPPER
Stop posting Tony and go to bed

>but this is the MCU where Hydra is running around influencing god knows how many governments, subcommittees, and special interest groups

This is Post-Winter Soldier, where their organization got exposed to the world. Zemo found a Hydra agent hiding in some safehouse shitting his pants every time he heard a car backfire.

And it doesn't matter because it's the same villain regardless of what he's doing in his bunker.

Oh please the only difference was that the super soldiers were dead and no one saw that coming. That's a bullshit statement.

I want to fug May

>and if this were reality i would be inclined to agree but this is the MCU where Hydra is running around influencing god knows how many governments, subcommittees, and special interest groups
If you can't trust anyone, then it's better to have decisions made by as wide a group as possible, and to not let anyone have absolute authority.

This includes the Avengers. We only know that they're all 100% trustworthy because we see things from their perspective.

>What essentially amounts to disarming and handcuffing

Or

>Backflip kicking a teenager in the face

That makes all the difference, because it means that they could go back with Tony and deal with things at the UN's pace. There was no reason to resist, because Zemo isn't a threat unless the Avengers fight each other.

All Tony was doing was trying to neutralize the criminal. If Steve had just said "you got me man" and peacefully discussed shit something different may have happened. Instead he got himself free, triggering the battle

There are many different first moves team Iron Man could have done if they actually wanted to fight when they got there

but we do see everything from their perspective and they are all 100% trustworthy.

if we're working with privileged knowledge then why not use it. the avengers are infallible so just let them operate.

>he doesn't remember Tony literally saying word for word "lets get you out of the city"

The invasion wasn't Tony's fault for happening in NYC it was Loki's ego. Ultron was definitely his fault, but he admitted it. I'm not saying his position is perfect but at least he can admit he's flawed in some ways aside from Steve "Perfect Judgment" Rogers

Someone who DIDN'T try to nuke New York City in Avengers 1, preferably.

>A city was literally lifted from the ground and was going to drop onto the Earth's surface killing all life on Earth
Literally 100% caused by two Avengers. So was the mess in South Africa.

And some other HYDRA cell was going to buy the blueprints for the Yellowjacket, and walked off with Cross' particle.

Zemo infiltrated the secure counter terrorist offices and triggered Bucky under the noses of all the people pushing the Accords.

In an ideal world, yes, acountability to the UN would be the answer.

This is the fucking MCU, where a new bad guy or evil organization is being created every week.

That was the World Security Council, which is gone now. Those 5 jackoffs were the most corrupt of all of them, and they're out, as is SHIELD.

Because that's asking the world to treat them like they know that.

If the Avengers get to be an exception to the law because they "do the right thing", what's stopping other vigilantes from claiming the same thing?

Dude got his hands on and deployed a huge electromagnetic pinch device, and also blew up a UN meeting killing A FUCKING KING. Tell me how he's not a threat when he's a one man terrorism machine.

That plays right into Vision's point though. He stated outright that the unlimited power the Avengers have draws competition, like HYDRA, like Cross, like Zemo. You're literally proving Vision's point.

>>being a vigilante is OK as long as you're a good person
>Thousands of retards who think they're "Good People" begin running around and enforcing their own brand of the law because the Avengers are doing it

Cap is trying to operate within the borders of a country while simultaneously ignoring its laws.

You mean 3 avengers? You can't possibly separate SW from responsibility here.

this. Tony should've been the one in prison. I'm really surpised no one calls him out about Ultron or Iron Man 3 events.

Especially since the comic avengers give Pym so much shit for Ultron he has a mental breakdown

just double checking here, but are the shadowy figures (great job whedon) the same council in winter soldier?

those guys seemed alright

SW and Tony were the ones I was referring to.

SW and Hulk for the second scenario.

You sure? I don't remember them getting their comeuppance. It's been a long time and I could've forgotten, though.

Wasn't he? I need to rewatch, but I'm pretty sure that he killed all of the super soldiers. They weren't shot when we first saw them in their pods.

>I'm really surprised no one calls him out about Ultron

He calls himself out for it and owns up to being a goddamn moron. Is that not enough?

>is so un-involved with his own company he doesn't even know his company manufactures weapons
>reveals his secret identity because of his ego
>puts himself and his girlfriend in mortal danger by revealing his address to a terrorist
>fights a giant green monster in the middle of a populated city and makes no attempt to lure him out of it
>creates an AI that tries to destroy all human life
>neglects Pepper so badly she leaves him
>tries to make his whole team share responsibility for stuff that was his fault
>brings a 16 year old kid to a warzone of super humans
>causes his best friend to be crippled
>destroys his own team by being a government stooge
Is it even possible to fuck up more than Tony has?

>I'm really surpised no one calls him out about Ultron
There's an entire scene dedicated to muh dead son, and it's the villain's whole motivation.

Laws that are barely adjusting to the fact there's aliens and mad science fucking shit up, mind you.

HYDRA predates the Avengers.

So do the otherwordly threats the MCU faces.

Chitauri, Frost Giants, those extists and can come at any moment if they please (Frost Giants battled on Earth in the past for gods sake).

>>Thousands of retards who think they're "Good People" begin running around and enforcing their own brand of the law because the Avengers are doing it


Are you dissing Batman?

But in either situation all 3 are responsible. Bruce helps Tony with Ultron and Tony fights Bruce in the city. Both of which are results of SW. All 3 are responsible in both situations

Rhodey very specifically says in the movie that the UN guys they're be working under are NOT the World Security Council.

Pretty much literally how you get new superheroes anywhere nowadays.

Cap was only partially wrong. He was correct that Bucky was framed and Zemo did it and was heading to the site. He was just wrong that Zemo's endgame was using the soldiers.

I guess. Which just supports my point even more.

The Avengers are not infallible and their decisions should not always be trusted.

You can't be serious. The dude bombed a UN meeting, killed a king, deployed a EMP, triggered Bucky.

One man, all by himself.

The Accords couldn't and wouldn't do shit to stop him.

So what if he never inteded to wake up the Winter Soldiers?

The dude was a serious threat, and the only people doing ANYTHING to stop him was the people on Cap's side.

why did zemo kill the 5 sleeping winter soldiers?

>putting a team of super heroes under a system of bureaucratic red tape
Giant lizard destroying the city? Hold on guys we have to get approval first

He hated Superhumans.

No. He tries to fault the whole team like they are out of control when he's the only person OUT OF CONTROL.

No one made Bruce and Tony build a super robot with the capability to commit mass destruction. And no one made Tony taunt some terrorists.

Every other event was collateral damage, Tony's destruction was caused by pure arrogance.

Same council, not the same people.

>If Tony hadn't been such an ass and taken a half a second to listen it wouldn't have happened.

You can't listen to someone who isn't talking to you. Steve's problem is that he only trusts one person and that dude's a brainwashed super assassin.

>people forgetting the UN's response to the Rwandan Genocide

This is not the group that should be protecting us from Thanos

He didn't like superpeople. His plan wasn't to use them, but to use them to create false urgency/tension.

I meant the avengers telling Tony to shut up. Not the villain

thats it? why didnt he try and use them the same way he used winter soldier? did he think that activating them would unite the avengers (in order to defeat them?)

>No one made Bruce and Tony build a super robot with the capability to commit mass destruction
One of the current Avengers literally did just that. She also intentionally made the Hulk go on a rampage in a populated area,

Because they are HYDRA tools of destruction, and he dislikes HYDRA and the threat those five soldiers represent.