>people actually debating sides of Tony and Cap
>Zemo wasn't what I wanted, but he helped fuel the dispute
>Panther and Spidey done justice
>Made Falcon actually cool
Where was you when the Based Russo's not only saved cape shit, but took the source material and made it better? Isn't this how happy everyone was when Avengers 1 came out?
>Deadpool was pretty good
>XMen has been consistently great (minus 3) throughout
>Daredevil, Punisher, Jessica Jones are all great
>Iron Fist soon
>Black Panther soon
>maybe a good Thor movie with the What we do in the Shadows guy directing
What else are you guys hype for?
It wasnt too hard to make something better than Civil War but they did the Tony-Steve conflict justice
You could have given the Civil War comic to a mouse and he would have made it better, making a better adaption of that drivel is hardly an achievement worth bragging about. You movie-only fucks have got it lucky with how ignorant you are.
This was the best God damned scene in the movie. Captain & friends road-trip movie when?
>I'm a comic book specialist.
The reasons for the accord itself was stupid, Tony/Steve conflict was good and reasonable up until the movie's Martha moment, Zemo sucked and was mostly just a plot tool instead of an actual character, Spiderman and Falcon were cool, BP was boring, had no personality and was essentially a dude in cat suit who scratched people.
Looking back Avengers one had the appeal of it being one of a kind, now that all this other shit is out it really isn't that special especially since Whedon is such a poor director.
My only wish is that Fox would just give up and hand Marvel the Fantastic Four rights back. Or maybe if they want to reboot X-Men they can make a deal like Sony did with Marvel Studios.
>Captain & friends road-trip movie when?
I would pay to see this.
>The reasons for the accord itself was stupid
Not really. What happened at the beginning of the movie was just the straw that broke the camel's back. But this isn't the first time that someone's saying the Avengers should be responsible for what they do, and remember that they were originally brought together as a government-sponsored organization.
Besides that, what Ross said about "misplacing" Thor or the Hulk is true; they're powerful fucking people, and someone should at least keep an eye on them. That's not to say that Steve "For fuck's sake I just took down Hydra trying to do basically the same fucking thing last movie" Rogers is wrong, either. But the Sokovia Accords had their merits.
>Tony/Steve conflict was good and reasonable up until the movie's Martha moment,
"Are you fucking kidding me? You fucking knew all along that your best friend, who you've been trying to hide and protect from me, fucking MURDERED MY PARENTS, and you never even bothered to fucking tell me?"
>Zemo sucked and was mostly just a plot tool instead of an actual character
I can't really argue that, though at least he was an effective plot tool. he wasn't Lex Luthor. Zemo managed to actually accomplish his goals. Besides, how much do you really want them to focus on him, in an already crowded movie?
Civil War is legit garbage though
come on man, what's the point of contrarian'ing this hard
i know this is Sup Forums, but jesus
The comic is pretty bad.
My favorite part is when Vision attempted to murder Falcon but ended up crippling Rhodey instead
I was talking about the comic faggot, If I was being contrarian I would day it was decent
my mistake, then
Rhodes asked Vision to turn "His thruster into a glider." Vision was aiming to shut off the engines so that Falcon could still glide to the ground on the wings, but he'd be grounded because he couldn't get any lift and so he couldn't pursue.
Well that sure backfired on him
Vision turned Rhodes into a brick.
I was more surprised that they actually managed to make Vision interesting at all. That character is such a bronze age clusterfuck of goofy design and bad parenting by Tony, I'm astonished he was actually likeable.
I still wish they just killed him there.
>What happened at the beginning of the movie was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
Except there WERE no previous straws. The issue of the Avengers needing to be kept in check or answering to a higher power was hardly ever brought up, if at all, and none of the team ever showed remorse for their actions because there was no need. The perfect chance to do this would have been at the end of AoU, but Whedon shit that bed.
>people actually debating sides of Tony and Cap
Retarded. There is no debate. Tony is wrong. The movie never delves any deeper into the issue because it becomes more retarded the longer you look at it. The Avengers don't need to be kept in check Every death toll would have been exponentially higher had they not acted. They are not at fault for anything. And explain to me, how exactly, the Avengers being contracted by the UN would do ANYTHING to prevent collateral deaths or damage. It wouldn't. The greatest evidence for the Avengers actually needed to be kept in check (Tony creating Ultron, and Hulk rampaging and Tony having to take him down) were totally ignored, because casting a light on Tony's actions would ultimately make him look so bad that kids might not want him on their lunchboxes anymore, and they couldn't bring the Hulk into it because Ruffalo wasn't in this movie. It's pathetic, shallow, transparent and the Sokovia Accords are pants-on-head stupid. The fact that anyone thinks they can "debate" them proves how stupid cape movie audiences are.
The truly sad thing is that the Civil War plot was only shoehorned in because the Russos felt the need to compete with BvS. The ironic thing is that the Civil War plot ended up being the worst thing in the movie.
Every other bit of praise this movie gets is memes. I feel like if Spidey and Ant-Man hadn't been jammed in, this movie might have flopped as hard as it deserved to.
Man, for someone who professes to be so "smart", you have no fucking clue about how politiicans operate. This movie was spot on.
>Incredible Hulk
>Avengers
>Thor 2
>Captain America 2
>Avengers 2
>lol why you tho, governments of the world
>What point is this supposed to make?
>"real life politicians are retarded and disjointed, so that makes this movie okay!"
Yikes. And I thought the people doing mental gymnastics to make BvS look good were insane...
>Made Falcon actually cool
Cute.
I don't think Bucky would've been nodding then if he knew who Sharon actually was. Specifically, who her great aunt was.
I think he still would. Mostly because of the fact that his homie is making out with a girl; that's the only reason he really needs
>Mommy, I don't know what a scapegoat is
As for the other guy, the point he's making is you selectively ignore how the MCU governments respond towards people with superpowers. They're already hostile. Sokovia is simply a welcome excuse to deal with people who challenge their power and souvereignity.
Traditionally I see myself as a DC fanboy and honestly the fact Cap 3 was so damn good made me despair further for DC movies.
It did everything right. After avengers 2 I was done with marvel. The quippage had gone too far and everything just felt tired. Cap 3 brought consequences, some humor and juggled a massive cast without feeling undeveloped.
The fact this movie introduced both Panther and Spiderman in a satisfactory way amazes me.
WB have no hope of replicating this because they are pursing the JL idea for cash and disdain of DC material
Civil War was a reactionary movie that never needed to happen. Not only does it not accomplish anything (the team is split, except not really? It's vague as fuck), but it forces the Avengers into a Cap movie where they don't belong.
The Cap trilogy no longer stands on its own as a trilogy because of this. Iron Man had his own trilogy for the most part, aside from minor references to Avengers 1. The films could be watched on their own and nothing would be confusing.
If one were to watch the Cap movies as a series of their own, the disparity between the ending of Winter Soldier and Civil War is jarring as fuck. It absolutely requires watching that shitty Age of Ultron movie in order to make sense of what's going on.
>Who is this Wanda? Who is Vision? Why are they here?
>Why haven't Steve and Sam found Bucky by now? The stinger at the end of Ant-Man showed that they caught him already. What's going on?
>Oh ok so the stinger actually takes place in the middle of Civil War. Weird. Why did they do that?
>Why did Tony take time out of the Sokovia Accords business to track down Peter Parker? Why would he endanger this kid by putting him in a conflict between far more experienced fighters?
>Why is all this even happening now? A draft similar to the Sokovia Accords should have been made directly after Avengers 1.
Somebody make a petition.
Ironically, while I was in the theater I kept thinking
"wow I bet BvS did the heroes' conflict better," and I hated like two-thirds of civil war.
But without all the other heroes, we wouldn't have gotten the Spider-Man, Ant-Man, and Hawkeye, who were the best parts of the movie.
The fucking amount of shit you have to make up in your own head to support anything that goes on in the MCU is staggering. Who are we saying is a scapegoat?
>you selectively ignore how the MCU governments respond towards people with superpowers
Oh my god. You imply the movies EVER made it seem important how the governments reacted to people with superpowers! It was never important, because Marvel Studios NEVER wanted to make something as controversial as Civil War or "heroes vs. government" a part of their safe, formulaic movie universe. The Russos even admitted this. The only way they got them to change their mind was because WB gave BvS the greenlight.
The idea of the Avengers as a dangerous entity that the world should fear was NEVER brought up, outside of a throw-away line of a random citizen (not the government) mentioning they didn't feel safe at the end of Avengers. And Avengers 2 pretty much tiptoed around the entire hornets nest so that they could have a happy, Whedon-approved ending. The closest they came to making it seem important was when they mentioned that 117 countries had signed the accords, but seeing as how that was only in Civil War, I don't think it counts as any kind of meaningful set-up.
>there is no debate
there have been a shit load of threads filled with debates and people thinking both sides are obviously right.
In the end, there needs to be SOME oversight and people knowing what the fuck they're doing but the UN is pants on head retarded and should be trusted with nothing.
None of this shit would've happened if Fury was there, he's pretty much essential for the team to stay together.
Watch the movies that other guy listed.
>"wow I bet BvS did the heroes' conflict better,"
It did and it didn't. The thing was, Superman didn't really have a conflict. He never WANTED to fight Batman at all. Meanwhile, Batman's motivation to fight Superman was driven by fear and xenophobia, and I think the movie did a great job justifying that. And I think it spoke a lot to Superman's character that, as a hero, he never saw a reason to get physical with Batman, and not once did he personally WANT any hard to come of the Batman, but what finally got him to fight was a dirty bit of manipulation on Luthor's part that preyed on Superman's human psyche.
There's a lot of cool and interesting stuff in it, but I still think the movie has severe problems in terms of story.
It was overstuffed and after Age of Ultron I'm beginning to fear this is just what Marvel is now.
If you're looking at comics, there's three basic types of cape books: solos where they really dive into one character and their supporting cast, team books where a lot of minor characters get a time to shine alongside other characters and events where they just throw everything they have at the wall.
But with the sole exception of Guardians of the Galaxy and arguably the first Avengers movie, the MCU doesn't do any "team movies".
They just do solo and event movies now and I can't help but feel it's getting a bit tireing. They keep trying to have these huge conflicts with intricate stories and so much going on, but then they also remember that they have to use like 6 different B-list Avengers in these movies because no other movies are going to and then on top of that they also always introduce new characters.
They are moving really fucking fast now.
A "New Avengers" movie with a smaller scope would've been dope. Just use Cap's new team for a while, before you dive into the next huge thing. We barely even know half these characters we have in these movies right now, but Marvel is too busy assembeling the next event movie and making even more solo movies.
>there have been a shit load of threads filled with debates
>implying people on Sup Forums won't debate the most retarded shit
I did. In fact, I noted how most of those movies not only didn't SHOW the government responding to the actions of the Avengers, but more often than not they specifically tip-toed around it. The best foothold the Accords could get would be in mentioning the Hulk, but since the MCU seems to be shoving him on the back burner and can't make any more solo movies, they seem to not want to feature him at all.
Are you seriously just saying "look, big bad things happen in those movies, so the governments were clearly grumpy about it, even though they didn't show it or discuss it or anything at all!"
>But without all the other heroes, we wouldn't have gotten the Spider-Man, Ant-Man, and Hawkeye, who were the best parts of the movie.
I'd be lying if I said Spidey wasn't the best part of the movie. But it's so painfully obvious that he was forced in at the last minute. It's just so out of place. Peter has no business being there.
So, you're just ignoring Hulk, Thor, a nuclear strike, trying to seize Stark's technology, Hydra's political cronies never being arrested or pulled out of play and thus still active.
Kay. Sure, you've seen the movies. I'm totally going to believe you there. You're not just pasta-ing shit from other threads by people who never bothered to watch the films either. Nope, not you! You've seen them all!
Stark needed someone that could take down Cap's team without hurting them. Look at Starks line up vs Caps. It's mostly fire power.
Err, I meant to say without killing them.
What does ANY of that have to do with showing that the governments feel that the Avengers need to be kept in check? Yes, a number of those things are certainly REASONS that the Avengers should be scrutinized, but the movies never fucking addressed it. You're worse than the people who jam tons of subtext into Snyder movies to try and make them seem like kino.
And additionally, the nuclear strike has nothing to do with anything. In fact, it proves the government was willing to have more casualties in one confrontation that the Avengers ever allowed. The government trying to get Stark's suits had NOTHING to do with them feeling the Avengers needed to be kept in check, they just wanted the fucking technology for war mongering.
>lists multiple attempts to put Avengers under government control
>What does ANY of that have to do with showing that the governments feel that the Avengers need to be kept in check?
So, double digit IQ, gotcha.
Never, but we are getting a Thor and Hulk roadtrip film! :D
An intergalactic road trip at that. Get hyped. At least they can end the shitty Thor trilogy going balls out.
Or then Vision just shut him up because he was distracting him from muh wanda and feigned innocent afterwards
>Since when did you fall under the illusion Vision was good?
>lists multiple attempts to put Avengers under government control
Except I explicitly refuted how ANY of those were "attempts to put the Avengers under government control"! None of them were! How were they? Explain! Use examples! This is fucking sad, I'm pretty sure you're just trolling at this point, but the notion that there is any human being out there who might actually fall for this line of "reasoning" kind of upsets me. Here, let me specifically refute that original "list":
>Incredible Hulk
Government was actively attempting to subdue the Hulk because he was the antagonist of that film. Had nothing to do with keeping Avengers in check. The fact that he was only referenced in a throw-away line in CW was pathetic, because he was the best leverage the movie had against the Avengers operating freely.
>Avengers
Government never once mentioned trepidation over the Avengers. Random citizen says they didn't feel "safe" at the end. The Government was willing to nuke NY, which would have been multiple thousands more casualties than the Avengers could ever be held accountable for
>Thor 2
Government had nothing to do with this movie. Not sure why you mentioned it. Unless you're trying to make it seem like somehow a couple of jets being dispatched during Malekith's attack is them "trying to keep the Avengers in check", god you're not smart.
>Captain America 2
Government NEVER enters the equation. It's all SHIELD, and SHIELD was proven to be a bigger liability than the Avengers here.
>Avengers 2
The most hilarious entry. Tony nearly causes Armageddon, and walks away without any repercussions.
You understand that showing the cause is not the same as showing the reaction? If there is no reaction shown, you cannot just assume that it occurred. Where are the scenes of government lobbying for Avenger subsidization, or even showing they were concerned about the Avengers not being held in check? I'll give you a hint: There weren't any
Eh, I'd still prefer a version of the actual ragnarok story line from the comics.
Way I see it the Sokovia Accords were just an attempt to get the Avengers under government control, because they want to use them to their own ends. Like they've got humanitarian concerns in mind when, as you've said, they wanted to nuke NY to kill the Chitauri.
The timing was just right because of Tony's guilt over Ultron and the rest of the fuckups he's had, and Wanda's guilt over the events with Crossbone.
>having to inject your headcanon into a movie so that it makes any sense
Jesus.
You're not getting a response beyond "watch the fucking movies" from me, because you're either trolling or sperging out. The entire plot of the Incredible Hulk was about government oversight and control over a superpowered person.
I'm also not sure you realise that Shield isn't an "independant agency". SHIELD = the government, you fucking putz.
Nick Fury's whole reason for making the Avengers was to have a team to fight the foes no single super hero could withstand and go around the political bullshit to just save the world.
Headcanon, what the fuck? I drew conclusions based on what I saw in the movie, it's not like I'm claiming Tony's pissed at Steve because they're secretly homoerotic lovers or some shit.
I don't see any sinister motivations like that behind this. Avengers 2 was a huge fuck up by the Avengers in every sense of the word
>Hulk going nuts
>Building ultron
>Letting Hydra super humans join their team
Frankly they didn't even need Scarlet Witch blowing up twenty people to start the Accords, they could have just opened with it in Civil War.
My biggest fault with the plot is why Zemo revealed he was pretending to be Bucky. Seems to me he could have destroyed the evidence and kept the world hating Bucky and by extension Cap forever.
You could argue it was to get Iron Man on their side so that he could have the big reveal, but I feel he could have kept Bucky vilified while still having Iron Man believe Cap's story.
And then it turned out that Nick Fury was running Hydra.
No, you didn't draw conclusions. You made up a plot point that doesn't exist and was never even hinted at. There's a big difference.
>your best friend,
He wasnt his best friend, Rhodey is
And I agree Tony was somewhat justified in going after Bucky. What else was he supposed to do? Weep like a bitch?
I think he meant Bucky as Cap's best friend there.
Right misread it
give a reveal time, wheels within wheels
>And I agree Tony was somewhat justified in going after Bucky. What else was he supposed to do? Weep like a bitch?
Understand that Hydra ordered the death of his family and go after what's left of Hydra rather than essentially trying to destroy the gun that they used to kill his parents?
I understand that Stark has always been self centered so his reaction makes perfect sense, but I don't agree with his course of action.
I did love the twist though. I'm sure some people might have seen it coming but I sure as hell didn't.
Sure, because SHIELD dissolving and losing control over the Avengers, and then the team proceeds to do doesn't give the impression that the governments of the world don't want a repeat of Sokovia, and would rather have the Avengers under their thumb. Or when Ross makes that remark in the film about how he wouldn't let "two 30 megaton bombs like Thor and Hulk run free"
Of course, the meeting in the beginning of the film where Ross brings all the Avengers in just to show them clips of the deaths that happened on their watch WASN'T him guilt-tripping the team into compliance. But alright.
>Ross makes that remark in the film about how he wouldn't let "two 30 megaton bombs like Thor and Hulk run free"
I would have preferred an additional Hulk reference or two from him. I'm guessing most people didn't realize that he was the Hulk-hating Ross.
I think Tony was trying to beat Bucky as revenge on Cap for hiding the truth.
>but I don't agree with his course of action.
You dont have to agree with what he did but it was unimagineable for him to do anything else
I'm still wondering how Cap knew. Did he read some SHIELD file? Did Peggy tell him?
>Did he read some SHIELD file?
Yes, at the end of TWS. A lot of people tend forget that part.
SURGEON WEIRD
I feel like the people taking Tony's side have to be literally retarded or just fucking around.
I mean I have sympathy for the guy and understand his guilt, but none of that changes that his backing Ross is just another in a long string of terrible, terrible decisions.
That sort of goes against what he said about "I didn't know it was him."
Unless when Bucky told him about the Winter Soldiers he immediately thought "oh good it might not have been him!"
He learned from Zola in the bunker during The Winter Soldier.
He didn't come right out and say "Bucky murdered Howard Stark," but he heavily implied that Stark was assassinated by Hydra and Bucky was their top assassin.
I've stood by Stark being right ever since "What If: Civil War" where they showed that if the heroes hadn't fallen in line then the USA would have just sent Sentinels after them.
That made me realize that there was no "winning" for Cap's side. The best you can hope for in a situation like that is to change the system from within, because you're not going to be able to shout down the law by just punching it.
And that was Tony's plan here as well.
I think Bendydick Cucumberpatch was a good choice.
Imagine Thor, who is the god-prince of a sovereign nation far advanced beyond anything on Earth, being told he had to abide by this treaty his people weren't even involved in drafting.
He'd laugh in their faces.
yeah. cap lied. hes human. he clearly learns from Zola and the shield file what Bucky did and he kept it from Tony for a while. Then when Tony asks Steve, steve lies and first says "i didnt know it was him". steves a liar.
I don't know, I would think Thor might respect the government of the world not wanting him to interfere without their permission.
At least until he gets shit faced at an Asgard party one night and decides he's had enough of North Korea.
I think so too, but we'll see.
Plausible deniability. Cap really didn't know for sure until he saw the tape. And he didn't want to know the answer so he never dug any deeper or asked Bucky directly.
>Where was you when the Based Russo's not only saved cape shit, but took the source material and made it better?
I was at the cinema, watching the movie for the third time on opening day
why didn't he just fly there and take down tha quinjet instead?
Vision isn't as fast as Iron Man.
*the
yeah, that really bothered me for some reason
we've only seen him float and when he flies, he does it off-screen (like hunting down the last ultron)
we don't know his actual top speed
>I've stood by Stark being right ever since "What If: Civil War" where they showed that if the heroes hadn't fallen in line then the USA would have just sent Sentinels after them.
That just mean Americans in the Marvel comics are evil and needed to be destroyed. The fact that the Sentinels are sent doesn't prove Cap wrong, it proves him right instead that he picked the moral side.
I like Rhodey and I think he should have died. It would have given the story a lot more weight.
And I am not joking about that; Marvel had blew up entire planets for less. Destroying America is not a big deal when it comes to saving Earth from being destroyed by Sentinels.
>Oh ok so the stinger actually takes place in the middle of Civil War. Weird. Why did they do that?
The fuck are you talking about? Both stingers take place after the events of the film. Mid-credits scene is obviously showing Cap in Wakanda with Bucky. End-credits scene is Parker after he returned to Queens following the fight (i.e. got hit by a guy named STEVE, his friend was a BIG guy, etc.)
>Why did Tony take time out of the Sokovia Accords business to track down Peter Parker? Why would he endanger this kid by putting him in a conflict between far more experienced fighters?
He wanted a secret weapon going into the battle, and he knew from two Youtube clips shown in the film that Spider-Man (1) had strong webs which could detain people non-violently, and (2) was ridiculously strong and durable.
>Why is all this even happening now? A draft similar to the Sokovia Accords should have been made directly after Avengers 1.
After the events of Avengers 1 there was no reason to believe that anything like it was ever going to happen again, besides which, they were all (well, except Thor) American nationals responding to a crisis situation on American soil while working in conjunction with an active government agency (SHIELD).
The bigger question is why it didn't happen immediately after the Sokovia incident, for which the Accords are named.
They wanted to end it with Tony still being on the good guys' side.
There's no way he'd ever forgive Cap if in addition to finding out Bucky had killed his parents, he lost pretty much his only close friend. Tony would go full supervillain.
It's different when you're blowing up planets of Skrulls versus countries that you call home.
plus Tony would really be all alone at the end, him helping Rhodey recuperate gives him something worthwhile to do.
I know there's Spidey too but still.
>The bigger question is why it didn't happen immediately after the Sokovia incident, for which the Accords are named.
What happened in between? Ant-Man? It was a direct response to AoU.
>I like Rhodey and I think he should have died. It would have given the story a lot more weight.
The writers completely disagree. There is no weight to killing him at all, it would just end up with everything stopping and everyone attending the funeral. The film would then end, just like BvS.
Speaking of Sokovia, does anyone else think that they made Zemo from there just in case they were planning to do a Thunderbolts movie? That way a main character wouldn't be a nazi.
>would have given the story a lot more weight.
Does anyone actually even care about the guy? He's not particularly relevant like, ever.
I like Rhodey and I like Cheadle, and the few bits of screentime he and Tony have together they have good chemistry. He's just underutilized.
They denazified Zemo because no one gives a fuck about nazis anymore.
>I like Rhodey and I like Cheadle, and the few bits of screentime he and Tony have together they have good chemistry. He's just underutilized.
And your decision to utilise him is to bury him six feet under?
The writers had a better idea; they gave him a disability, which parallels Tony's old chest wound. They are giving him room to be his own man now. This is far more useful than giving him a tombstone.
Avengers also happened on American soil and 4 out of the 6 avengers were American. BW is porbably a US citizen now, and Fury knows not to fuck with Thor.
Sokovia Accords after the avengers have been running around the world trying to stop Hydra.
Fair enough, though him not being part of hydra makes his line about having "practice" decoding things a little weird.