He was wrong, Sup Forums

He was wrong, Sup Forums

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Both sides were wrong since they were both the extremes of their political side.

True, but Stark was wrong on more points than Cap.

Not really.

Caps whole point about how regulations come from people with agendas and biases was crazy hypocritical and basically implies he, a guy from a different time, is perfect.

Everyone was equally retarded you just see the ones that are more on your side as less retarded.

Cap was wrong for not telling Tony.

But I'd be against the accords, despite being pro gun control. The movie is a huge analog for gun control

Bucky did kill his parents. Can't argue that.

No, Hydra killed Stark's parents using Bucky's body (completely out of his control, no-less) as a vessel in which to do it

Right about accords, wrong about bucky, right to be pissed at cap for not telling him about his parents

I didn't think so at all.
More like nukes.
Guns are already everywhere in the hands of 12 year old farm kids, gang members, police, survivalists, sport shooters, Detroit, the military, and Dick Cheney

Hell they use about 100 different guns in this movie and no one says a peep about "guns r bad"

>right about the accords

He had the right issues to be brought up, the problem is the accords solve literally none of them and only make it harder to save lives. As demonstrated by Stark having to go behind Ross's back when he was going to stop Zemo.

he dragged a kid into an armed conflict. of course he was wrong.

So you wouldn't want to kill the guy?

After seeing that video you would just go "well he was brainwashed"

God I am happy I am not related to you.

I dunno to me this seems to be more about accountability.

Like we expect soldiers and police officers to follow rules and if they fuck up they are held accountable.

Of course he was, the only person who was right in the comics was Reed Richards, but he wasn't in the movie.

Come to think of it, Reed Richards is literally always right about everything.

I will say this, in THEORY, the accords are a great idea. But it adds a lot of red tape that can easily stop the Avengers from doing what needs to be done. And the angles in which the accords were made were completely out of tune

>Look at all these damages in Avenger related events! Like that time the Avengers saved tens of millions of lives in an alien invasion, or when some Avengers saved millions of lives and saved the world from Hydra rule, or when the Avengers saved the world from human extinction at the hands of a genocidal AI!

The accords had the right ideas at heart, but there's just no way it could work in execution, when you have miles of bureaucratic red tape and dozens of agendas that will clash and conflict all the time.

I didn't say Cap was right in not telling him, or Stark was wrong in not wanting to beat the pulp out of Bucky. I said that Bucky himself didn't kill Mr. and Mrs. Stark.

RIIIICHAAARDS!!! Remove your petty existence from this thread!

But the accords don't even address that, when they run and are eventually brought in the heroes aren't treated as felons. They're thrown in the rift to rot. Or put under house arrest for defending themselves.

Say a shoot out was happening between the police and some other people and a grenade is thrown to one of the cops who's surrounded by civilians. On instinct he throws it away from everyone but it still blows up and kills people.

A cop in the same instance wouldn't face any sort of trial, he would probably just be put on leave for a bit. No chance of house arrest. Hell, a regular civilian probably wouldn't face charges at that stage.

>if they fuck up they are held accountable

Not to the same standard as the populace.

>A cop in the same instance wouldn't face any sort of trial,
Are you insane?
A cop that throws a life granade into a building and kills a few people to safe maybe more people on the street wouldn't face any sort of trial?
You mean he wouldn't face any sort of trial since they would just fire him without letting him even defend himself, right?

>he throws it away from everyone but it still blows up and kills people
This means he murdered those people.

the Nuremberg trial concluded that given the choice between obeying the rules that say to do bad things, or breaking the rules to do good things, the former is morally abhorrent.

when the rules said 'obey the man issuing the order to kill an innocent man' Cap was right to break the rules to protect that innocent man and do everything he could to keep him alive.

Even if Bucky was guilty for the death of T'chaka, it still would have right for Cap to keep Bucky alive that he could receive a fair trial, and do everything he could that Bucky's punishment was not disproportionate for the crime.

>the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

That is the definition of murder. The case of Bucky Barnes killing the Starks is a muddy one because of the brainwashed mind control. A cop throwing a grenade away from civilians he sees and inadvertently killing civilians he doesn't is not murder.

UN in real life is a joke. Tony was wrong.

Yeah murder involves intend.

Manslaughter/Homicide is also against the law.

>killing civilians he doesn't
You're telling me that if I throw a grenade inside building then I'm not a murderer because I didn't see the people that were inside?

Never trust a Stark.

Murder = Intent

Manslaughter = Accidental

Who the hell are you?

and you can make the case that his intent to save lives far outweighs his accidental killing of others. See: Justifiable homicide

Two questions.
1. Are you throwing the grenade away from people, and it happens to land in an occupied building, or are you intentionally aiming the grenade into a known populated building?
2. Are you also suggesting that Wanda intended to throw crossbones into the building?

>A cop in the same instance wouldn't face any sort of trial, he would probably just be put on leave for a bit. No chance of house arrest. Hell, a regular civilian probably wouldn't face charges at that stage.
What shithole of a country do you live in?

He was wrong about being wrong

>and you can make the case that his intent to save lives far outweighs his accidental killing of others.
You could.

you could also make the case that the cop wouldn't be good pr for race relations.
>remember this shit happenend in a different country
It wouldn't be good for international relations.
>one of them is literally wearing an american flag costume.

It is fucking insane that you think america should let these people run around unsupervised.

1. Let's say that I didn't know the building was populated I just felt like throwing the grenade inside.
Technically I didn't intent to murder anyone.

2. Wanda saved those people in the marker (and Cap) but she's also responsible for killing Wakandians inside that building.

This is getting a little more complicated because there is no reason wanda couldn't have just held him up even higher or just contained the explosion in a bubble. We saw her do more impressive shit later.

There are technical situations, any deaths during the commission of a felony put the suspect in line for a murder charge, even if they weren't the one that killed the person.
Dunno how technical this conversation should get though, we don't really know much about the accords either, and Tony was kind of suggesting they could still mess with it to some degree, but they had to at least sign it and shit.

You're telling me that you would be ok if a superpowered entity in real life could just roam around to where ever they want to do what ever they want without needing to at least check in with some governing body?

What happens if Hulk suddenly decides to wipe Hong Kong or Madrid from the face of the planet? They don't know where Bruce Banner is. The Avengers don't even have finding Banner on their to-do list apparently because Cap just shrugs Ross off.

It's ridiculous to just trust in some group of people, a group that can't even agree within itself, that has no obligation to even listen to the very people they protect

>No, Hydra killed Stark's parents using Bucky's body (completely out of his control, no-less) as a vessel in which to do it
Eh, I'm not sure that's valid. HYDRA turned Bucky into a guy who killed Tony's parents. It wasn't even mind-control cosmic energy like Loki's staff. It was electric shocks and implanting of trigger words, and such, to make him compliant with their orders. So "it wasn't him" isn't quite valid. It was a version of him, and it was who he became, and it was clear in Civil War that that guy is still there.

In your hypothetical situation you're a danger to the well-being of others, and committing acts of terror. In the cop hypothetical He's taking a grenade thrown by another, and throwing it away from people in his immediate area in an attempt to save them. Though it should be stated that it's more likely someone would jump on it than throw it.

As for your second part, you are correct. But in a fair court of law, would she be imprisoned, given all the surrounding circumstances?

America? Maybe. 117(177?) squabbling nations? No way.

>It's clear the guy is still there
Trapped inside a body being commanded by Zemo. It was established in Winter Soldier that they had to freeze him, or reset his brain after a certain time because Bucky would come back to.

>What happens if Hulk suddenly decides to wipe Hong Kong or Madrid from the face of the planet?
That's a pretty glaring reason that they need responsible, trustworthy superheroes who can respond quickly, not unreliable ones who are just fine to keep operating as long as they do what a governing body says.

Aw come on.

>America? Maybe. 117(177?) squabbling nations? No way.
Okay and what should america do to appease the now pissed United Nations and that african country and probably most of its own populace after the guy dressed in their flag killed some black people in afrika?

Maybe some almost meaningless rules set up by the united nations for example.
Nah we can't have that. That would be literally hitler.

>responsible, trustworthy superheroes
how do we know they are?

The Avengers weren't elected. They were hired as a taskforce by SHIELD, a government agency. Now that SHIELD is down, the Avengers don't exist.

So our cops really aren't that great and we should have free working cops removed from the goverment?
Also PMCs would be better than standing armies for the same reason.

>we should just believe in the Avengers to do the right thing
>The Avengers with Wanda on it
>Wanda "X the X-Gene" Maximoff

>But in a fair court of law, would she be imprisoned, given all the surrounding circumstances?
Fair to whom?
I'm pretty sure people would want her to be imprisoned for killing their kin.

Now, is your definition of "responsible, trustworthy superheroes" the same as mine? How about the hundreds of political ideals of the nations of the accord?

>meaningless rules
meaningless rules are a big deal in the global political landscape

>or reset his brain after a certain time because Bucky would come back to
They had to keep wiping him to make sure the old memories didn't resurface, but old Bucky is kind of gone dude. He can reminisce with Steve about the good old days now, and maybe even rebuild a life for himself, but his fight in Bucharest shows the way he's changed.

>meaningless rules are a big deal in the global political landscape
So is killing people in a different country.

If the powered individual is avoiding arrest and trial for whatever reason, he is a menace to the public, you cant just "hope" he is a good guy, especially now that everyone in the government is aware that mind control is possible in so many ways
>lokis staff (mind stone)
>killgrave experiment
>inhumans like Hive

>how do we know they are?
By past experience.

You know what's bigger than inadvertently killing people in a foreign land? a terrorist cell creating and using a biological weapon on population centers.

>How about the hundreds of political ideals of the nations of the accord?
do any of those ideals include "Let the Hulk rampage through my country?" If not, than you can shut up, because that's what I was talking about.

The Avengers don't exactly have a clean record. Tony CREATED the Sokovia incident

Read

This is not a "bigger than" situation. It is not a zero-sum game.

Just like murder being worse than manslaughter does not mean that manslaughter is okay the reasons for something being done don't excuse the execution.

That was on tony, and he should have faced trial for that, the rest however were on shield and shield is gone (to the public at least)

So what would make you believe I meant Tony when I said "responsible heroes" then?

Is Tony not on the Avengers?

You can't make your case of a situation, but leave out crucial details. And there are more terms in one person killing another than murder and manslaughter.

Tony does his best to cooperate with the government and make the masses trust him, because he is aware of how the world works, and having no military hunt him will give him freedome to do his best to help people

>shield is gone
yeah, so who do the Avengers answer to now?

No one. And that is dangerous.

Point is that SOMETHING would happen. At least a court case of some kind. People died. That usually comes with it.

You making the defense for it or justifying it does not mean it would just fly over and have no consequences.
That is retarded.

Nobody is saying they are necessary guilty. But something would have to change.

I agree, they should be hired directly by interpol as a peace keeping agency

I don't answer to the government, but I can still be tried and held responsible for any crimes I commit. What's preventing the UN from holding them accountable after they screw up on a case by case basis?

>If the powered individual is avoiding arrest and trial for whatever reason, he is a menace to the public, you cant just "hope" he is a good guy, especially now that everyone in the government is aware that mind control is possible in so many ways
What are you arguing? This is EXACTLY why you need to put situations like Bucky in the hands of superheroes, and not send human kill-squads after them, to deal with the incident by saying "shoot on sight". It's a dangerous precedent to set, just killing a suspect because they're a superhuman. Another powered person, or at the very least, assisted by advanced technology like War Machine can diffuse the situation without loss of life, because hey're less likely to fear for theirs. That's why they needed a middle ground the Sokovia accords didn't provide.

Why not just reform SHIELD

Arguably with government oversight, they would remove Hulk from the Avengers and put him in protective custody or at least relocate him.

Hulk did that by himself, but that's not the same. What if Hulk didn't leave? The person responsible for death, DIRECTLY responsible (or Wanda if you want to make it like that) would still be walking around free.

see
>That's a pretty glaring reason that they need responsible, trustworthy superheroes who can respond quickly
Never said "everyone on the Avengers team"

Wanda basically got the same immunities that various high ranking Nazis got after WWII. She is considered a valuable enough asset to offset the bad she did

They were allowed to kill Bucky on sight because he was on the run for murdering hundreds of people throughout history, surely if he gives in and surrenders noone is gonna shoot him, just like normal criminals, but the problem here was the arrest resist

They have, its called ATCU and secretly answers to SHIELD by presidents decision

Do you also go on missions?

Tony had already proven the risks of granting him that kind of power already. I mean, I guess it's fine to have him if you're not actually going to let the capes DO anything of their own volition, but that doesn't solve problems. It's not flexible enough. You need to have people you can trust, and trust people that you have. If someone can't show they have enough judgement a superhero NEEDS TO HAVE to make the kind of decisions a superhero needs to make, and needs to be allowed to make, then they should not be enfolded into an overly restrictive system that gives their power to some governing body, they should be dismissed.

If they don't follow the law then they are virtually indistinguishable from the super villains.

As long as they think they are right.

So what would he and the world do once Thor refused to sign the treaty?

shrug their shoulders because there's literally nothing they can do.

>but the problem here was the arrest resist
That's exactly why you need to trust that to people who are more capable than an officer with a gun. The problem is that the world was starting to react with knee-jerk fear to powerful people, and restrict their power.

Falcon could try to seduce thor.

They are a couple in the comics right?

Cap was the Confederates in the War of Northern Aggression

Wouldnt he be treated like an immigrant?

They weren't really extreme, they were just both flawed. There is no clean solution for the issue they tried to solve.

Wrong about the accords being compulsory. There was no reason they couldn't all decide to sign or not sign individually, which is I guess where the movie ended up anyway, basically.

Right about the need for oversight, but wrong in the sense that oversight would have changed the events of the movie's opening OR AoU in any meaningful way, assuming he'll allow the UN administration to oversee his personal projects or those of Stark Industries.

Also wrong in the sense that the events of TWS should have demonstrated that the worlds' governments are perfectly capable of creating possibly world-ending catastrophes on their own.

Wrong about killing Bucky, right that he needed to be pursued and captured.

>But the accords don't even address that, when they run and are eventually brought in the heroes aren't treated as felons.

People under investigation are often told that they can't leave the state/country. Wanda was under investigation cause dozens died.

They didn't get thrown in the raft for breaking the accords alone. They aided and abetted a wanted international fugitive and blew up an airport doing so. That's illegal as fuck.

>UN in real life is a joke. Tony was wrong.

The UN in the marvel universe can get troops to Berlin and ready to breech a room as fast as Captain America can get there. That's no joke.

I've heard people say Berlin for Vienna, and Berlin for Bucharest. Berlin was the airport.

>You know what's bigger than inadvertently killing people in a foreign land? a terrorist cell creating and using a biological weapon on population centers.

And the avengers damn near deployed the biological agent themselves. This was after the took on armed mercenaries in one of those population centers.

>It's a dangerous precedent to set, just killing a suspect because they're a superhuman.

He's not only superhuman he has a body count in about the triple digits. 6 seconds in. Bucky killed cops.

youtube.com/watch?v=qXPOl6EjbWg

He's a dangerous felon, damn near unstoppable by mere humans. He can outrun cars. His hand can rend steel. He's a real deal menace to society. The precedent is that a man who brazenly kills people in the middle of the street and can't even be handcuffed pretty much deserves to be shot. Yeah, he might have been brainwashed. But once he came to his senses he refused to turn himself in.

Rogers a shit , fucker should start appreciating the friends he made in the present time and move on from his past.
His life is a joke.

>So what would he and the world do once Thor refused to sign the treaty?

People act like Earth can't do anything to people of Thor's caliber. I willing to bet that isn't so.

>6 seconds in. Bucky killed cops.

Those cops don't matter more than anyone else who died. Just say he killed people. Who cares if they were cops or not?

>refuses to sign treaty
>instantly nuked

Eh, I'd believe it

He only lost Buck for two years in his life because he was frozen. And he was childhood friends with Buckster. It's pretty reasonable.

Like tony, you're wrong.

I believe he would have been more reasonable, had Peggy not just died as well.

>I believe he would have been more reasonable

You mean let them kill Bucky? That's what you mean by reasonable?

So you're trying to tell me if we were brothers and a guy was literally mind controlled to murder you with a gun you'd DEMAND that I go up to the clearly repentant guy who hates that he was FORCED into doing it and fucking blow his brains out?

How fucked up of a person can you be? Like honestly. It's one thing for you to go "Tony was very emotional and I can see why he attempted to harm Bucky even knowing the truth of his mind control" but to go "God I am happy I am not related to you seeing as you wouldn't want to kill the person being forced into killing me so you can AVENGE me".

Like honestly what the fuck?

>"Do it user murder that pregnant woman who killed me after having a gun to her head she's 100% at fault here" says the psychopath ghost of brother user

>Those cops don't matter more than anyone else who died. Just say he killed people. Who cares if they were cops or not?

In a thread where everyone's arguing that it's awfully mean of the government to give "shoot on sight" orders, it bears mentioning that he has killed cops.

>Eh, I'd believe it

He might be bullet resistant but the Ultrons gave him a decent fight. That's basically Stark-tech. I bet there's a gun on Earth that'll put a hole in him large enough to store that hammer of his.

>In a thread where everyone's arguing that it's awfully mean of the government to give "shoot on sight" orders, it bears mentioning that he has killed cops

No it doesn't. It means they'd be more likely to give a kill on sight order, sure, but does nothing to justify it.

I think Steve Rogers should be the governing body other superheroes answer to

The kind of things you're saying are the kind of things that sound reasonable at first, until people decide to simply apply them to slightly wider and wider circumstances. The precedent of "This person is a superhuman we think committed crimes, so we should take them out immediately" is knee-jerk and unnecessary when you have superhumans on your side who could be easily trusted to subdue the person. But I'd already mentioned that

It's like I'm saying things, and you're not listening at all. "He's dangerous. He's dangerous. He's dangerous" So what? So now we're just going to abandon the justice system for "dangerous" people? They don't need the protection of the laws anymore because they make governments scared? They have an out, they only used it as a last resort when Rhodey came in. Their first response was to kill him immediately.

>I think Steve Rogers should be the governing body other superheroes answer to

That shit goes immediately to his head then he's all AvX and taking advice from Murderine.

>They don't know where Bruce Banner is. The Avengers don't even have finding Banner on their to-do list apparently because Cap just shrugs Ross off.

Ross is the one who lost the Hulk in the first place. If anyone should be held accountable for keeping tabs on it, it's him. His "well, if I lost a nuke" bullshit is a total joke and just proves that "accountability" doesn't really mean anything to these people.

>The precedent of "This person is a superhuman we think committed crimes, so we should take them out immediately

If the precedent is just murdered people in old blood on the street in broad daylight and plenty of witnesses I'm sure other superheroes would survive.

>"He's dangerous. He's dangerous. He's dangerous" So what?

Laffo.