Freemasonry

I'm considering joining Freemasonry. I've visited two lodges near my area and spoke to several wonderful people, but three of my friends have been consistently discouraging me from joining. One says Freemasonry involves selling your soul to the devil, another says their secrets don't go as deep as I might like and I'll just be disappointing and wasting time and money, and the other just says they're the scum of the Earth but can't really give me a sufficient reason why when I press him; he basically chalks it up to instinct.

I enjoy learning about Freemasonry and the idea of improving myself by seeking deeper virtues than are commonly sought, but some things do make me a bit queasy. Are there any Masons or anyone else who can answer some of my questions?

Other urls found in this thread:

namb.net/apologetics-results?query=freemasonry&filter[0]=225&Submit=Search
youtube.com/watch?v=0s_kJ0PtoDs
mrm.org/christopher-nemelka
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

You might be a faggot if...

It's a cult

Okay pleb, ask away... Ill wait... 9+FRC here waiting... Free masonry is a joke.

1. Just to set the frame of discussion, what kinds of questions are Freemasons forbidden from answering? I'm trying to see how specific I can get with my inquiries both now and in the future.

2. Does Freemasonry promote a particular philosophy that can be named and traced to other philosophies? Is there a highly developed doctrine or is it more open-ended?

3. Who are the oldest heroes of Freemasonry?

I'll just start with these three and see how it goes.

2.

1. who are the members
2. amalgamation of ancient gnostic philosophical systems that date back to Solomon's temple (as they say).
3. some Jew fuckers I don't remember the names. Hiram and solomon, methinks

Wow. Sourced and everything.

nice drawing

any specific reason for choosing a pomegranate?

>who are the members

What?

>amalgamation of ancient gnostic philosophical systems that date back to Solomon's temple (as they say).

That's not a name.

>some Jew fuckers I don't remember the names. Hiram and solomon, methinks

So I'm the pleb, huh? Thanks for contributing but you've provided me with no new information at all.

It's for apologetics, there's more if you're interested
namb.net/apologetics-results?query=freemasonry&filter[0]=225&Submit=Search

Didn't we just have this thread?

>9+FRC
How long did that take in the States? Did you go through each grade or were they conferred?

1. What are the explicit secrets, and anything about "outing" another brother who isn't already.
2. Not one in particular, no. It encourages the study and application of as many as possible to find the correct tool for the job (as it were).
3. Oldest heroes? Anderson, Desaguliers, Newton, and Ashmole, i guess.

You will join a collective with dogmas. It does not matter if I know doctrines and dogmas with you. You are going to be part of a collective which negates individual thought.

BTW, the tree of life in Kabbalah is stolen from the viking.

Persephone from Greek myth. I believe the pomegranate represents the forbidden fruit in their mysteries. I've also heard of a dark flower being used.

Apparently, Persephone represents the human soul and her descent into the underworld represents our fall from grace in so many words.

youtube.com/watch?v=0s_kJ0PtoDs

confirmed in 6 years for me. Temple initiation

1 and 2 are correct.

idiot

typical mason, ARROGANT

>Temple initiation
Not sure what that means. Anglia here, only ever visited CF once and it wasn't a proper meeting.
But nice, what topic got you the FRC? Sad state of affairs here that most of the recent recipients were just for long membership (long service sounds too generous).

Are you a Freemason?

>What are the explicit secrets

Is this you telling me that Masons can't tell me what they're allowed to tell me or not? I'm afraid I don't follow. Forgive me if I seem dense.

>Oldest heroes? Anderson, Desaguliers, Newton, and Ashmole, i guess.

Are those the oldest heroes since Freemasonry was formally established or are they they oldest heroes revered by Freemasons at any time?

>BTW, the tree of life in Kabbalah is stolen from the viking.

Source?

FRC is Fraternitatis Rosae Crucis

>1 and 2 are correct.

Those answers don't even make enough sense to be incorrect. Neither answered my questions.

1. You cannot tell about membership of others, meathead!
2. GNOSTIC is a religious tradition that is also philosophical, that is, living and evolving. Free Masons are Gnostic.

WTF?

3. What relationship does Freemasonry have with the Jesters?

4. Do you believe in something like Atlantis? Some prehistoric developed civilization?

5. What is your endgame? What are your common efforts directed towards?

Now you've officially answered my questions. I'd like to congratulate you for coming all this way. Where most people would have answered my questions with such precision in their first reply, you carried me along with you on a journey to discover the meaning of English. Well done, my friend.

>Are you a Freemason?
Ayup.
>Is this you telling me that Masons can't tell me what they're allowed to tell me or not?
My bad, should have been clearer. The secrets are the passwords, grips (like a handshake), and salutes. They're the only things we would consider a breach of obligation to divulge or even use outside of conferring them in lodge.
Anything else is fine to talk about, but i tend to shy away from the few contextual things surrounding the secrets (as in, the lectures in which they're given).
>Are those the oldest heroes since Freemasonry was formally established or are they they oldest heroes revered by Freemasons at any time?
Both? Or do you mean general people who are considered heroes but weren't Freemasons? Because that's where you'd include peeps like Solomon, Pythagoras, Thomas Aquinas, and plenty others.

...Ah. My bad. I thought you meant Masonic SRICF and that you were a recipient of the FRC, which is one of our highest awards.

3. Jesters are an appendent degree to an appendant degree (Shrine). Both are found only in the USA, and since they're scandals, a number of states (which are all entirely sovereign) have banned them.

4. In Masonry? No, nothing like that is mentioned, so no. Me personally? I like the idea of Lyonesse, and it was probably a Doggerland type thing.

5. General betterment. The goal is really just to give men the tools to help their society by helping improve themselves.

God, thank you for actually discussing this with me. I run into so many people who give me dog shit answers.

>My bad, should have been clearer. The secrets are the passwords, grips (like a handshake), and salutes. They're the only things we would consider a breach of obligation to divulge or even use outside of conferring them in lodge.
Anything else is fine to talk about, but i tend to shy away from the few contextual things surrounding the secrets (as in, the lectures in which they're given).

Okay, cool. Those things are interesting but not the focus of my concerns so no worries there. So you don't have a common religion, political affiliation, or philosophical framework. So what is common to you? Other than the signs and all that, what binds you together as brothers? if it is the goal of "general betterment" (I assume this means not just moral betterment or betterment of humanity, but betterment of everything possible), then how is that goal achieved? What are the methods? Alchemy?

>Both? Or do you mean general people who are considered heroes but weren't Freemasons? Because that's where you'd include peeps like Solomon, Pythagoras, Thomas Aquinas, and plenty others.

My turn to clarify. Some Masons have told me they trace the root history of Freemasonry back to the time of Solomon "or perhaps earlier". So I get that Freemasonry was established in Europe much later than that, but I'm asking who are the people most revered by Freemasons from before, say, the time of Christ? Are there any? Egypt is important to you, no?

That's another question: why the reverence of Egyptian, Greek, and Jewish culture? I understand many Masons study Hebrew and Greek and hieroglyphics, but why?

Also, Why are there Masonic Bibles and how do they differ from the Holy Bibles?

No, don't you fucking die on me!

>So you don't have a common religion, political affiliation, or philosophical framework.
Nope. In fact, religion and politics are forbidden to be discussed in lodge.
>So what is common to you?
The philosophy and desire to learn. The shared initiatory experience helps too. That's actually a bit hard to answer, because everyone would have different reasons. The most common one would be a desire to be better.
Sorry about that being so vague.
>(I assume this means not just moral betterment or betterment of humanity, but betterment of everything possible),
Essentially, yes. It's all broken down in to what you can accomplish.
>What are the methods? Alchemy?
Heh, sometimes, but alchemy proper (both chemistry and psychology are largely left to the Societas Rosicruciana). So the methods are the moral lessons and symbols in all the degrees (lessons), which are then combined with the team atmosphere/brotherhood.
Kind of like a study group.

>Some Masons have told me they trace the root history of Freemasonry back to the time of Solomon "or perhaps earlier". So I get that Freemasonry was established in Europe much later than that, but I'm asking who are the people most revered by Freemasons from before, say, the time of Christ? Are there any?
Ah yea. Solomon, Nimrod (with the caveat that people can accomplish great things, even if they are the wrong things), and virtually all Greek and Roman philosophers. As well as pioneers of the Trivium and Quadrivium (ie. Cicero for Rhetoric, and Galileo for Astronomy).
But just to be clear, it really doesn't date earlier than the middle ages. That myth came from when it was first organised, and they were spouting shit like the group was as old as time, or even that Christopher Wren was a member since he had recently died and couldn't say otherwise.
1/2

>Egypt is important to you, no?
Not really, which is weird. Like, it's mentioned in the Ancient & Accepted Rite for the 31st degree, but really only as a study of Kemeticism. Some lodges are styled with Egyptian motifs, but there's no reason for it within the institution.
>That's another question: why the reverence of Egyptian, Greek, and Jewish culture? I understand many Masons study Hebrew and Greek and hieroglyphics, but why?
We don't so much, but should. Hebrew because of the Bible, and because the stories now are focused around the Temple of Solomon. So things like our tracing boards (lecture pieces) have Hebrew lettering on it because it's appropriate. Greek and Roman are revered because of the architecture and the scientist/philosophers.
>Also, Why are there Masonic Bibles and how do they differ from the Holy Bibles?
They don't. They're just KJVs with maps and stuff in the front. Some might have poems by Kipling or Burns, though.
Always felt they should be different, personally. And different in each degree they're used.
I'm not really sure if there are Masonic versions of the Qu'ran, Gitas, Vedas, or Tanakh for the members to whom they apply, though.

Do you like sucking jewish dick?

>Entry level nigger forever
Kek

>The philosophy and desire to learn. The shared initiatory experience helps too. That's actually a bit hard to answer, because everyone would have different reasons. The most common one would be a desire to be better.
Sorry about that being so vague.

Do no other groups share those things in common? What, other than the signs and handshakes, is unique to Freemasonry? Is it your mythology? Your rituals alone?

>Heh, sometimes, but alchemy proper (both chemistry and psychology are largely left to the Societas Rosicruciana). So the methods are the moral lessons and symbols in all the degrees (lessons), which are then combined with the team atmosphere/brotherhood.
Kind of like a study group.

What is Freemasonry's affiliation (if any) with the Rosicrucians?

>Ah yea. Solomon, Nimrod (with the caveat that people can accomplish great things, even if they are the wrong things), and virtually all Greek and Roman philosophers. As well as pioneers of the Trivium and Quadrivium (ie. Cicero for Rhetoric, and Galileo for Astronomy).

Why do you revere Solomon and Nimrod? The Greek philosophers are self-explanatory, really.

Do Freemasons study astrology? Do you order your lives around certain numbers or anything like that? I see numbers like 13, 33, 42, 72, 111, 144, etc. quite frequently in Masonic influences.

...

>this combining the names of the Hebrew, Phoenician and Hindu Deities, to indicate that they are in reality the same
I'm sorry mate, but that's kind of beautiful

What about all the obelisks and references to Isis and Osiris in Masonic architecture? What about the Masonic use of the Egyptian royal mile? I hope I'm not mislead about these things.

>Always felt they should be different, personally. And different in each degree they're used.

Different like how? What is your religion, if I may ask?

Why do you visit Sup Forums? Actually, I think we may have spoken in another thread months ago. What lodge are you from?

And that book, The Builders (which I strangely can't find an image of on Google. Didn't it have a pyramid being built on the cover? Maybe it's obscure, so I'm not certain I should expect you to know about it.

>In fact, religion and politics are forbidden to be discussed in lodge.
If you don't mind me asking, how is that possible? Didn't you just say you were given lectures about doctrine, or moral lessons with context relating to religion? Do you not then discuss this with your teacher?

I guess you are saying you keep the discussion in a philosophical framework without bringing your own religious doctrine or political leanings into the mix?

What other Masons have told me is that they can't be discussed in formal activities, but can be discussed in the lodge in informal settings.

Look to the East brother.

>Do no other groups share those things in common? What, other than the signs and handshakes, is unique to Freemasonry? Is it your mythology? Your rituals alone?
Damn good question. I want to say constancy, but even that's a bit hard given how many lodges have swung towards being charities.
Certainly a question we need to ask ourselves more. But it also seems to be that Masonry is a better jack-of-all-trades, covering all the subjects it's peers might.
>What is Freemasonry's affiliation (if any) with the Rosicrucians?
Ancestry, kinda. Rosicrucians turned Masonry more speculative and esoteric like it is today, but it's not a line of descent.
>Why do you revere Solomon and Nimrod?
Solomon for the Temple, and being a kind of prophet (or however you phrase it). He actually replaced Noah as the focus. As you might tell, it used to be a lot more religious. And Nimrod just for the Tower of Babel, architecturally.
>Do Freemasons study astrology? Do you order your lives around certain numbers or anything like that?
Not really. Gematria is studied in some side degrees, but nothing major. The zodiac is mentioned in a few, like the Holy Royal Arch but astrology isn't much of a thing because we study astronomy instead.

>What about all the obelisks and references to Isis and Osiris in Masonic architecture?
We don't really have any, actually. There are lots of columns, but no obelisks (Outside of styling on some buildings, that is). Isis and Osiris are again, mentioned in the A&AR 31st degree, because it's about the Kemetic heart weighing ceremony.
>What about the Masonic use of the Egyptian royal mile?
Isn't used. Cubits and inches are mentioned, but we don't use measurements for anything.

Can you tell me what that means or does that count as a "sign"?

>If you don't mind me asking, how is that possible?
It's easier than you'd think. It's punished with censure, but that's rarely needed. Politics are simple to avoid, but religion is just dealt with in non-sectarian terms. When we have prayer, a placeholder is used (Great Architect/Grand Geometrician/Grand Overseer/etc), and there's just nothing mentioned in a denominational sense.
Except in Scandinavia, where the Craft is for Baptised Christians only.
>Didn't you just say you were given lectures about doctrine, or moral lessons with context relating to religion? Do you not then discuss this with your teacher?
It does sound contradictory, but in practice isn't. Most of the stuff relating to religion is just "be true to your faith" or "how can you apply this to your beliefs?", and nothing definite is mentioned, just left to the individual.
>I guess you are saying you keep the discussion in a philosophical framework without bringing your own religious doctrine or political leanings into the mix?
Yea, basically. You can of course discuss it outside of lodge, but the whole point is to keep any arguments from arising and thus upset the harmony of the group.

Yea, i know what you mean. Lots of books and 3rd party stuff have pyramids or other Egyptian stuff for some reason.
I guess because it's just a basic recognisable symbol? I really can't find a ceremonial reason for it.

Okay?

My paternal grandfather was a 32nd degree Freemason. He died when my dad was like 13, so I never got to meet him, but my dad has a bunch of his Masonry stuff like books, hats and rings and shit. He died of a "heart attack" which has always sounded fishy to me. I'm pretty sure the Masons had him killed.

I've considered trying to join, there's a lodge near me.

Do you need to subscribe to a religion to join. I know you have to believe in a higher power, which I do, but I couldn't consider myself a Christian.

>Damn good question. I want to say constancy, but even that's a bit hard given how many lodges have swung towards being charities.
Certainly a question we need to ask ourselves more. But it also seems to be that Masonry is a better jack-of-all-trades, covering all the subjects it's peers might.

I hate to come off as rude, sincerely, but how can a Freemason not be able to answer the question of what Freemason is that's different from every other group. Again, this is just what occurred to me.

>Ancestry, kinda. Rosicrucians turned Masonry more speculative and esoteric like it is today, but it's not a line of descent.

Oh, that's cool. Rosicrucianism is heavily influenced by Christianity, right? So was Christian symbolism a lot less prominent in Masonry prior to it's eloping with Rosicruciansim?

>Solomon for the Temple, and being a kind of prophet (or however you phrase it). He actually replaced Noah as the focus. As you might tell, it used to be a lot more religious. And Nimrod just for the Tower of Babel, architecturally.

>And Nimrod just for the Tower of Babel, architecturally.

Surely greater structures have been built? Do you know the measurements of the tower and the proportions? How it was constructed? What do you like about the Tower of Babel, architecturally?

>We don't really have any, actually. There are lots of columns, but no obelisks (Outside of styling on some buildings, that is). Isis and Osiris are again, mentioned in the A&AR 31st degree, because it's about the Kemetic heart weighing ceremony.

>Yea, i know what you mean. Lots of books and 3rd party stuff have pyramids or other Egyptian stuff for some reason.
I guess because it's just a basic recognisable symbol? I really can't find a ceremonial reason for it.

George Washington was a Freemason, right? Why is the Washington monument an obelisk situated inside of a vesica pisces? That's not for literally no reason, right? And he had a major say in its design and erection, right?

>When we have prayer, a placeholder is used (Great Architect/Grand Geometrician/Grand Overseer/etc), and there's just nothing mentioned in a denominational sense.

Freemasonry is secular in nature? Then why can't atheists join?

You don't have to join a club and do pseudo religious ceremonies to hate black people.

Sweet. Thanks for clarifying that.

Masonry sounds pretty chill desu. I think its highly misunderstood.

I'm sorry, my bad. I misunderstood "sectarian" for "secular".

Nope. You need faith in a supreme being, but you don't need to be religious.
Most of the appendant degrees are Trinitarian Christian, though, but in the USA, that's not much of a restriction.

>I hate to come off as rude, sincerely, but how can a Freemason not be able to answer the question of what Freemason is that's different from every other group.
Not rude at all. Valid.
It's just such an unwieldy beast, and I'm sorry to not be able to answer that better. Members have written rather large books on just that question.
>Rosicrucianism is heavily influenced by Christianity, right?
Yea, it was philanthropic Christian scientists. They'd go out into the world, healing the sick for free, and studying whatever they could to take back to a meeting and share it with the rest to make of it what they could.
>So was Christian symbolism a lot less prominent in Masonry prior to it's eloping with Rosicruciansim?
Well no, other way around, but it wasn't a cause. It was a lot more Christian until 1813, when overt references were removed, and all faiths could join.
>Surely greater structures have been built?
Fo' shizzle. But that was just an impressive structure from the Bible. The Ark was a big player too. Personally i'd throw in specific cathedrals, maybe the Colosseum and Pantheon. Stuff like that.
Do you know the measurements of the tower and the proportions? How it was constructed? What do you like about the Tower of Babel, architecturally?
No idea. Just saying what the earliest Book of Constitutions said. Can't remember the explanation it gives (it's since been removed).
>And he had a major say in its design and erection, right?
Well no, he was long dead at the time.

>George Washington was a Freemason, right? Why is the Washington monument an obelisk situated inside of a vesica pisces? That's not for literally no reason, right?
You'd have to ask the builders. What i've heard is that it was originally meant to have been a giant Greek column (which would have been way more Masonic), but it was too expensive, so they went with a cheaper option.

>Freemasonry is secular in nature?
No no, it's non-sectarian.
>Then why can't atheists join?
Because a belief in God is paramount to membership. The idea is that it makes your word binding, and you have more reason to want to do better.

>Well no, he was long dead at the time.

I should have done my research.

So I guess my final question is: if Freemasonry seeks general betterment, then what is Freemasonry doing to help humanity in particular (humanity being a part of the "general")? Do you have a specific plan you are all following, or do you all mostly make your own plans towards a common objective? If the latter, what is that objective in the most concrete terms you can express?

>Do you have a specific plan you are all following,
Naw, because that could interfere with free will/sovereignty.
>or do you all mostly make your own plans towards a common objective? If the latter, what is that objective in the most concrete terms you can express?
Tough to put in concrete terms, but things like improving the quality of life for your society. So one member might take that to mean he should be a doctor. Another might take it to mean he should find ways to increase average prosperity. Maybe a method helping ensure food yield and delivery to those in need.

It's all deliberately vague.

Okay, well thank you. You've contributed a significant amount of time insight in this discussion. I'm off the bed, Godspeed, user.

Hope you got something out of it, bro.
Checkout Freemasons for Dummies if you want more (the book and the blog are great).

It was you. You're very consistent.

I will surely take much from this conversation.
You bastard.

Que?

...

So confused right now. And that nigga doesn't have blue eyes.

...

What is even happening? Why are you posting your licenses?

You know what it is, bitch. You fuckin fraud. Quit fuckin with gullible teenagers.

Is this some meme i've missed?

Original Washington Monument design

Way cooler. Don't think it would have made any difference with the penis jokes, though.

The only interesting thing about freemasonry is going there and meeting interesting people and discussing things with them.

You may not need to join for that.

It's about what you can get out of them, not what they can get out of you.

If you go there with a blank mind with no aspirations or interests you are going to be raped hard in many ways.

Never join cults.

It is also a meeting place.

Masonry is the less secret secret society in the world.

It is an error to think all masons share the same interests and intentions and that they all aim for the same thing.

There are many, many different colors to it, including people that may be complete opposites or that are members of more serious and secret societies.

That's why both a communist and a jesuit and a jew and a knight of Malta and a guy like George Washington can be masons.

The cult must be some different thing for the dummies.

Freemasonry is a mortal sin.

*lethal

Only to Catholics who don't research it and just take the Vatican propaganda.

They're against religious institutions, as your degree rises, your faith in a creator will slowly diminish

Many christians interpret the teachings in a terrible way imo.

They're more afraid than anything, and thus are always cucked by their supposed restrictions, when christianity is precisely the contrary.

Excuse me while I pass on Satan's propaganda.

What does a creator have to do with religion?

Why must you take the creator thing literally?

Why must you have been created above all things?

It's also a mystic / platonic thing, that of the demiurge. It's not a christian concept.

Jesus spoke in metaphors, there is probably no old bearded man that created you and me.

If you're open, you're supposed to have faith that your belief cannot be overtaken by any propaganda, and thus take all in.

If you're not, you're weak and don't really believe what you claim.

>They're against religious institutions
Not at all. Lodges often support their parishes.

>Many christians interpret the teachings in a terrible way
Not just Christians. Zealots of all kinds. They're very devout to their religion, even though they might twist and bend them to their own prejudices.

Masonry was originally the first trade union for skilled workers

Modern masonry is used as a vehicle of Oligarchs to compartmentalise the Managerial Class

Is freemasonry just a club for autists?

No, that's Sup Forums.

They believe jesus is lucifer. They worship the self generating principle of god and nature, that G. They believe man one day himself will become god, their great work. The rituals I imagine, get fucking goofier and weirder as you rise through the degree's.

Also the weird fraternal, pegging of dudes; would be a deal breaker for me. But to each his own. Allegedly, the shit doesn't get real until the 33rd degree, more obsession with the G; 33%= 33.3(recursive).

Mandatory

You may as well join a rotary club. You don't decide to join the real masons that are powerful. You're chosen

Founded on and by Freemasonry, its the American way.

>three of my friends have been consistently discouraging me from joining.

Yeah, that's how it works, you're friends might be masons.

When a neophyte approaches the temple he is consistently turned away until he has demonstrated a devotion to joining.

It's like that seen in Fight Club where they have to stand in the porch for 3 days.

>They believe jesus is lucifer.
Only the Christian ones who have read the Bible do.
The rest of your post is wrong. Except for the goofier ceremonies bit in some cases.

mrm.org/christopher-nemelka

Why would you want to join a kike cult who is behind revolutions and wars over the globe?

Why would i care about some Mormon whackjob?

Shame it isn't that strict. Probably get better members that way.

Yeah I gotta say, that headstone might be one of the most batshit insane things I've ever read in my life.

>wew lad
You asked who that was in the licenses...

I appreciate that, but why post them to begin with?