Well?

Well?

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Absolutely, just look at the credit scott snyder is receiving for greg capullo's batman run

They get the same amount of credit. It's always refer to as Snyder and Capullo's run.

>They get the same amount of credit. It's always refer to as Snyder and Capullo's run

>same amount of credit
>Snyder gets top billing

By billing the writer first, you are admitting that he gets more credit than the artist. That is how billing works. The most valued participant is listed first.

At least try not to contradict yourself, user.

When talking about artists people like, they tend to praise them to hell and back. But when people think of definitive runs, landmark stories, a popular series, etc. writers tend to be referenced the most, sometimes as the sole creator. And I don't read interviews too much, but it seems writers are put in the limelight much more often.

5 hours of work for a writer equates to 5 weeks of work for an artist.

Artists come before writers. Period.

On occasion an artist overshadows the writer.
I've seen Conner referenced more in the Palimotti Grey run more than the actual writers.

And giving artists top billing is what got us the 90s.

Agree. Comic artists do receive attention, but not as much as writers and surprisingly little considering how much they contribute to a comic.

>5 hours of work for a writer equates to 5 weeks of work for an artist.

This.

The "writer" can just say "X and X fight, pgs 13-22"

The artist has to actually draw that shit.

They do the lion's share of the work. Any writer/artist "partnership" is typically an 80/20 split in terms of work, with the artist doing the 80 or more.

Writers get way, WAY too much credit.

Is this the reason everyone is flipping their shit over?
screenrant.com/ta-nehisi-coates-black-panther-best-selling/
If so, it's justified.
It's justified even without it too.

I'll lean towards artists not getting enough credit, but what else are they suppose to receive? Who else is suppose to be screaming their names over the mountains?

A work for hire comic artist, as important as they are as the key visual storyteller, is still a penciler (or inker, colorist, the breakdown artist, etc.) and one part of the production. Think about how much work it takes to make movies, all the outsourcing for special effects and stunts, and CGI and all that. They get their names in the credits and go out about their way. Do those guys deserve more or less than the actors?

Not clicking that, what does it say?

Yeah, that's it. That article ripped off a Vulture article that did the exact same thing, btw (in fact, it was worse since they don't mention anyone but Coates at all)

Coates' BP is the best selling issue of the year so far and Coates gets pretty much all of the credit
And like said in some articles the artist and the rest of the creative team isn't even listed at all

To be fair it's probably as well selling BECAUSE Coates.
It might not be cool but it makes sense.

Yeah but most artists can't write for shit, like Tony Daniel or Bryan Hitch.

Also a comic with pretty art and awful writing tends to also be dogshit and even worse than the opposite.

It's rare to have a person that is both a good artist and a good writer.

>its a "I've never actually read a professional comic script not written by Stan Lee" episode

is that bottom middle panel for real?
how did her face break for one sentence?

I think Brian Steelfreeze is a good artist but yeah his art in Black Panther has been very subpar, not his best.

But what if you're Bryan Lee O'Malley or all the other webcomic artists out there?

Artists I hate get too much credit.
Artists I like get not enough credit.

>It's rare to have a person that is both a good artist and a good writer.
>tfw we just lost one of those rare talents
I-I'm OK... ;_;

It's more of a problem outside work-for-hire. When you publish creator-owned work you have to do all the marketing and hypebuilding yourself. Basically the job of a PR guy.

When some fucking cunt of a geek culture website reviews or mentions said work but only refers to the writer (or worse yet, makes no mention of the visuals whatsoever) you are completely losing out on all cred and it is insulting and demeaning.

Saying that, some writers are at fault for this too (KSD being one) so it's an attitude change that needs to adapt industry-wide

Conner's strength isn't faces, is all tits and butts

Writers can write in their heads wherever they are, no matter what they're doing. Hell, sometimes it helps to clear your mind and go for a walk or listen to music while you figure out narrative points or dialogue. 90% of the work is done in your head and you just have to type it out.

Artists can do the same when figuring out poses or say color choices, but when it comes down to actually drawing it the reverse is true. The ideas are only 10% of the work, they still have to get the actual drawings done. Which is way more work and takes an enormous amount of time.

I don't know, good art can transform a mediocre scene into something more through great facial expressions, dynamic paneling etc. Art can elevate so-so writing, and well-written comics can absolutely suffer from shit art. Not to say it makes or breaks it, but those two elements go together for a reason.

>90% of the work is done in your head and you just have to type it out.

Someone's never been chock full of ideas only to blank out when you open Word

I will pay for good art/bad writing but not the opposite.

look, im not gunna argue about this. Yes the artist does more actual labor, but they also get paid way more for their work than the writers do. As far as how much of a character and the actual story is determined by the writer or the artist, that depends on the duo. Stan Lee would just give the most basic of basic shit to Kirby and Ditko and they would make up most of what actually happens and stan would do the dialogue. In those cases I would say Kirby and Ditko are the primary creators, but who knows if they would ever have come up with Spider-Man or what have you on their own.


If you read something like an Alan Moore comic, I'd say about 70-90% of what you see on the page is written in explicit detail by Moore in the script. His scripts are sometimes novel length for a 23 page comic. So I would say the majority of the creative work was done by Moore.
I think it's impossible to make a blanket rule on who did what, and I think the artists and writers should be credited equally. I also think everyone who has helped refine a character over the years should get credit, and not just one old catchphrase spewing man, but I guess I'm just socialist like that.

She makes cute faces. Well a cute face.

Getting a bit more specific, I'd say colorists get the least credit.

I hate this mindset. While the artist does have the most work to do, I absolutely infuriating when people think writers don't do much.

Good Writers don't just sit down, slap a keyboard for a few hours and then hand it off to the artist to do. There is ALOT of research, world building, character developing, note taking, editing, writing and more editing that goes into making stuff.

Like I said: the artist does have the majority of the work to do, but completely dismissing the writing portion as something "easy" is wrong in every way.

Inkers get a raw deal too.
They also don't get enough shit when the art looks bad

This

To be fair, I wouldn't want my name on that run.

Since it's shit.

They're definetely bottom of the rung unfortunately. The fact that the big two don't feature colourists in their solicits illustrates that perfectly.
People are starting to follow colourists more and more now though so it's about time people started crediting appropriately.

Yeah, in like a Bendis comic I agree the artist should go first because he's a lazy hack and he works with amazing artists like Coipel and Pichelli, but when the writer does their work, they fucking do their work.

Agreed. It's definetely not 'ez modo'. Saying that they do have the least stressful part of the job. Once the editor approved script's in they're in the clear. Colourists and letterers are the guys that half to work right up to deadlines and are often at the mercy of writers and artists.

the art in the book is pretty bad

I get what you're saying, but I can understand the frustration some anons here have that the writer is kind of the defacto "leader" of a project. The one that gets the face time for interviews and conventions and getting to be a personality in the culture. Meanwhile the art and production team are nose deep penciling and proofs and everything and they'll get a few lines in a review while the bulk of it is mainly on the story. It all comes to touch points. A writer is also a talker, so you can reach them a lot easier than an inker cranking out pages for some third tier DC or Marvel book.

Inkers are just tracers.

Inkers are a dying trade as most artists go towards working digitally and doing it themselves. Very few people stick around as inking journeymen anyway which is why it doesn't probably get as much spotlight or respect these days.

Get out.

I'm the opposite. Good writing can overcome bad art. But not the opposite as Hitch or the various wannabe writer artists have demonstrate time and time again.

Great writers can carry a story despite bad art

Great art can't always carry a story despite bad writing

They are under credited anyways though

Actually kill yourself

Just throwing out an opinion, but I think that's because even though the art bears the brunt of the storytelling, it's still dependent on the writing for the story itself. So it's kind of like a foundation built on sand, so to speak

What you fail to understand is that comics are a VISUAL medium. If these were novels, then yeah, the writing would take priority. But they aren't. They're VISUAL.

The art is the most important thing. The artist is the storyteller, not the writer.

Saying you're a comics "writer" is laughable. Like saying you're a musician when you're just the lyricist and don't actually know how to read, write or play music.

Yeah man Cooke was a rare gem.

But the artist isn't telling their story, they're telling the writer's story

a shitty story with incredible art is still a shitty story

>But the artist isn't telling their story,

If you sincerely believe that then you are clueless.

It is the artist who designs the character from the ground up; age hair build posture weight ethnicity fashion and so on. You can tell more about a character from looking at them than from hearing their life story; the artist can tell more in a silent panel than a writer can in a whole comic (a picture is worth a thousand words).

A writer says "they fight" and collects a check for those two words. An artist spends a month or more putting the PERSONALITY into that fight, laying it out and adding all the touches that make it TELL a STORY.

And here, I'm just gonna drop the mic and shut you up right not.

An artist can write their own book if they feel like it. A writer CANNOT draw their own book. Writers need artists, not the other way around.

I dunno I can't buy a comic by say Kate Leth even if JH Williams was drawing it. In that case I'll just go and buy art straight from Williams.

Also Sara Pichelli is good but her being associated with Bendis kind of doesn’t make me want to pick anything because of him, I just hate that Bendi has good artists with him especially since his nodern shit sucks.

I don’t really like Dillon's Frankface but I did managed to go through it in Preacher and Punisher comics because the stores were entertaining.


What you fail to understand is that Comics besides being visual also illustrates a story and if the story is not good it fails too, it relies on both things.

Did a writer fuck you over? Lol you probably deserved it with that bitch attitude.

>What you fail to understand is that comics are a VISUAL medium. If these were novels, then yeah, the writing would take priority. But they aren't. They're VISUAL

A lot of visual arts mediums have been moving away from script writers, eliminating them completely from the creative process.

Shows like Adventure Time, Steven Universe and Regular Show aren't scripted, but the storyboarders (the artists) tell the story straight to the storyboard rather than bothering with a script. The artists "write" the story through their art.

Writers are unnecessary and often just get in the way. Chris Sanders produced a pretty great comic in the late 80s about how worthless writers are regarding the animation process and only do their level best to ruin things with their own self-importance and incompetence.

>It is the artist who designs the character from the ground up; age hair build posture weight ethnicity fashion and so on

Are you serious? I honestly can't tell as it's not like the artist does everything, this is a joint effort when designing and sometimes completely on the writer to describe just what the person/whatever looks like.

Who hurt you, user

And surprise, those shows are all shit

>An artist can write their own book if they feel like it
No, they can't. Most artists literally don't know how to write.

Comic artists have some more benefists.
They can sell the original work or sell sketches at cons, while writers can't.
Just a point of view.

You guys laugh at experienced animators like John K and have turned him into a meme, but everything he's said about writing in comics and animation is entirely true.

The best comics "writers" all doubled as artists (Kirby, Ditko, Jeff Smith, Stan Sakai) because that's where the storytelling is done: The Art.

Comics writers are more commonly parasites. If they were actually good at writing, they would be novelists or poets; they wouldn't need to leech off the hard work of artists in order to make themselves feel legitimate.

There are plenty of comics bought for the art alone. I know plenty of people will stick with a book that has shit art for a good story but at the end of the day, comics are a visual medium.

A artist can "write" their own book but if they don't know how to do proper storytelling the comic will tank.

Read anything from Jim Lee and Tony Daniels they draw better than they write, they have no business writing.

Also Manapul is writing Trinity and from some of his interviews for it it looks like he's dragging Batman back to his 90's paranoid persona but who knows how good of a writer he is, but we will see.

Few artists know how to tell a good story and be able to draw good.

>Ditko
>a good writer

And? Writers get paid less per page but they can take on a lot more.

On average an artist doing pencils and inks can do maximum two issues a month (at a push) and a lot of them struggle at even that. Just look at Ryan Kelly for instance. He's was drawing two titles (Survivor's Club and Cry Havoc) but recently had to get ink assistance. The most recent Cry Havoc ish was half-inked by three other people

And giving writers top billing is what got us today.

>A writer says "they fight" and collects a check for those two words

Too obvious, but for the amount of replies I'll give you a 9/10

>Writers need artists, not the other way around.

This is true.

>But user

You say

>lolol remember early 90s Image? Huh!?

Yeah, I remember. I remember all those comics that were written by the ARTISTS selling mad numbers that completely and utterly DWARF the current era of Superstar Writer driven comics.

Also, have you people ever heard of manga? The artist is the writer as a rule. And SUPPLIES! Those outsell Superstar Writer shit by the millions.

...

You'd take 90s over now?

No it isn't. Editorial is responsible for what's wrong with modern comics.

>The artist is the writer as a rule
>what is an assistant
Also, manga written by a person and drawn by another one exist.

>Comparing western comics to manga

People actually give a shit over there and it's made by near slave labor. That shit wouldn't work here.

>On average an artist doing pencils and inks can do maximum two issues a month (at a push)

That's a recent illness of the post-Image generation of artists.

Missed deadlines didn't become vogue until artists designated themselves as "celebrities" who don't have to meet deadlines.

I remember I had both Astonishing X-Men and Ultimates II in my pullbox back in the day and both titles were late by months (plural) because the artists felt they were "too big" to meet deadlines.

Writers may be hacks or whatever, but at least they don't miss deadlines because of their egos. Artists back in the day, the pre-Image celebrity era, actually treated their jobs like JOBS and understood accountability. Late issues were rare and always came with an apology from editorial.

Not anymore and we can thank the celebrity artists for that.

>Writers may be hacks or whatever, but at least they don't miss deadlines because of their egos
>What is Sandman Overture

>early 90s Image
Literally the exact same time as the British Invasion

And guess which one gets more critical acclaim

It almost like being a cartoonist is important.

Ditko and Kirby did good with Stan Lee but on their own? Ditko made some interesting characters but the stories were mostly shit and then he fell to obscurity while Kirby managed to produce New Gods but everything else he did on his own was mediocre.

Don't get me wrong Stan Lee was a weasel and his writing not that great but he also held things together and his decision making and plotting is what lead to some great characters, hell he is the one who put Ditko on Spider-Man and not Kirby, and if you think Ditko would come up with Spidey on his own then you're mistaken, but he contributed to him even if he recycled some Blue Beetle aspects for Peter but him being a down in luck teen and origin was Stan's idea.

And even then Ditko steered Peter into an unlikeable jerk and a mouthpiece, and then Romita Sr. came in and revitalized the comic with Stan.

You are fucking delusional if you think comic writers are "parasites".

Wasn't that Williams taking forever because he's Williams?

>Writers may be hacks or whatever, but at least they don't miss deadlines because of their egos.

Who is Warren Ellis

No, it was all Gaiman because he kept giving con attendances priority. He admitted as much.

In this particular case Gaiman also had a hand in it since he was touring or whatever during that time, so it was hard to coordinate.

But even the art needs to be storyboarded and planned and if the story is shit then it's shit, it doesn’t work, sequential art relies on both story and visuals.

Those people just want pretty pictures then and in that case why not just buy prints from the artists instea of enabling work for a shitty writer? This is how we get Bendis being popular when all he does is ride on popular characters and good artists but oh no it's pretty to look at! Barf.

twitter screencaps are not high quality images or informative, thought provoking posts.

No that's editors, giving Writers top billing is what got us 2000AD.

You seen Ellis? He looks like shit nowadays what happened to him?

And 90s Vertigo

I have not, but that reminds me...

>Writers may be hacks or whatever, but at least they don't miss deadlines because of their egos.
Who is Frank Miller

>editors

You see, THIS is what no one is bringing up.

The EDITOR is the one who steers the direction of the story and has all the narrative authority. Most often, the writer is just fleshing out notes and directives given to them by the editor.

So the "writer" doesn't come up with any of the ideas or plotting (the editor does that for him) nor any of the visual specifics or personality (the artist does that for him).

They serve no purpose. They're like bureaucracy; a middleman who collects a check and justifies their existence by saying they get paid so they must be important.

That whole *"Created by Bob Kane" with no mention of Bill Finger* thing tips the scales very heavily in favor of the artists because of how long it's been going on.
>The "writer" can just say "X and X fight, pgs 13-22"
That's a pretty shit writer. Read "The Maxx" and try to tell me that Bill Loebs was coasting while Sam Kieth did all the work.

>Who is Frank Miller

An artist who writes his own comics? Proving my point that script writers are superfluous in a visual medium?

Thanks for the help, chum.

Frank misses deadlines because he's battling Stan Lee for his life force, not ego

Ellis is not well atm. I don't know the details but it's what's causing delays in Karnak and other things.

He seems very down on Twitter the last while too

>Writers may be hacks or whatever, but at least they don't miss deadlines because of their egos

Didn't it take 5 years for this fat fuck to finish writing Spider-Man/Black Cat: The Evil That Men Do?

And who wrote Ultimate Hulk vs. Wolverine? I recall that one taking YEARS between issues because the writer was being a lazy shit.

Neither is your post, smartass.

Artist's don't get enough

(You)

Damon Lindelof. He figured since he was a big shot TV writer (LOST y'all) he could take his sweet time with his "fun" comic book gig, I mean, who the fuck even cares about comics, am I right?

Well most his best works do have him as an artist, to be fair