So what exactly is wrong with the Christ imagery in MoS and BvS? Why does this trigger people?

So what exactly is wrong with the Christ imagery in MoS and BvS? Why does this trigger people?

People don't read comics so they think it's new. He's been compared to God or a god more often though.

extremely cringey
true, but there it's more subtle
here snyder is literally shooting scenes that are copies of famous christ artworks, it's just so ham handed

Because it's easy.

Normal people don't like it because it's pretentious
Superfags hate it because it breaks the "he is just a normal guy" meme while at the same time they worship him as this symbol of hope for everyone in the planet and sing celebrations to his actions full of humanity and caring

Like all things Zack Snyder It is done poorly and hamfisted. The main difference between a fan of MoS and someone with taste is that most of us can't enjoy an impossibly sloppy execution just because we like superman.

>DC: Tee hee, we be god
Box office failure
>Marvel: Lets allude to cap revering God
Box Office success, every single time

Know your role, human.

Because it comes off as overly preachy and dramatic in Zack's mobies where as in the comics it's not forced up our asses

I love Superman and Peace On Earth, but there was this scene.

It "triggers" people because it has no substance and it's lazy and obvious.

It's babies first symbolism, yes we get it Superman is a christ-like figure who is "killed" by his government and returns after he was thought dead to save the world. That doesn't make the movie good or interesting. It adds a potential layer of depth but doesn't deliver since there is no real exploration of the christ themes beyond imagery and superficial similarities.

I think it's because of how blatant it is. Like I'm an atheist and even I can enjoy a good Biblical analogy in storytelling, but when it's done like your image where they forsake any kind of subtext or subtly and just beat you over the head it comes off as lazy and condescending.

It's lazy and shoved down your throat

People would ignore it if it were less frequent.

But the overabundance of it just makes people realize that Snyder and co. can't take these characters seriously as superheroes and JUST superheroes.

It doesn't come across as "heh, and when you think about it, isn't he like Jesus? :)". It's much more like

"God, I fucking hate these 'superheroes.' So unrealistic. And obviously, I know my audience perfectly well, better than anyone, including Marvel. So I'll play down the heroics and play up the stuff that audiences ACTUALLY care about: religion and Christ imagery. Man oh man, this is such a great idea, too, because to reiterate, I hate the concept of superheroes."

It's just dumb. It's on the level of Matrix Revolutions Christ imagery.

Sometimes, it's one of those benign things about western society that will always pop-up,

But when it's in MoS or BvS: it's just to make things easier to digest for plebs, because god forbid they get confused or offended, or it's just jerk-off material for autistic "classic studies" cocksuckers, such as BvS Lex.

Which is contrary to a lot of the DC material that I like: the comics are supposed to be able to produce halfway original imagery that, while certain things will always be recognizably classical, comics media should be able to avoid relying on old tropes as crutches.

>while at the same time they worship him as this symbol of hope for everyone in the planet and sing celebrations to his actions full of humanity and caring
I don't, I fucking hate that shit. Only Morrison did it right, and it really only worked because it was part of a short Elseworld story.

It's completely lacking subtlety and incredibly pretentious.

People don't read bible so they think it's just a bunch of faggy pretentiousness.

I think the main difference with that, is at least what I got out of Peace On Earth was that Supes isn't Christ, he isn't God, he isn't any holy figure and doesnt have the real power to save people.

Absolutely nothing but people like to over emphasize it because these plebs can only notice surface details.

What's wrong with using classical imagery? I'd argue it's good cinematography, those are some nicely composed shots.

>Making things easier to digest for American Evangelicals, ie the plebest American movie-going audience
>Pretentious

Yeah, what Peace on Earth was trying to convey is that no one man can solve the worlds problems. It has to be a group effort of everyone working together.

Christ imagery is one of the laziest ways to make it seem like you're "saying something".

Yeah, even Supes can't do it. I haven't seen BvS, but what I got from MoS with is christ like imagery was almost the reverse of that. PoE showed even Superman can't fix these issues, but MoS just compares him to God and its stupid

Because it's poorly done.

it triggers fedoracore neckbeards to the point that they rape themselves with bananas.

>compares him to God
But not really.

HEY
DID YOU KNOW
SUPERMAN IS KINDA LIKE JESUS?
HERE LOOK
LOOK, IT LOOKS LIKE THAT ONE PAINTING BY THAT GUY
RIGHT?
LOOKS LIKE JESUS RIGHT?
DOES JESUS THINGS
IT'S SO DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP

ham handed

Because it wasn't exactly subtle. At least in man of steel

It was shoved down the audiences throats.

We get it, he's a Jesus analogy

Because Sup Forums has the attention span of a 12 year old and didn't pick up that Superman hated being seen as a savior figure. Most of Sup Forums missed that throughout the films he hates being associated with a God, every scene has him frowning anytime these connections are made, and it's not until he makes a very human action (sacrificing himself for Lois and not for the world) at the end that he actually becomes "Superman".

Notice how he never has the S curl until the final scene. Notice how his real body is buried in a small funeral away from the monument telling people to remember him like Christ. Notice how at the end Wonder Woman makes a quip that the people of Metropolis never knew him as a man so they buried him as they would a demigod.

But I forgot where I am, so sorry, let me start over

Huuuuuurrrr Snyder a hack duuuuurrrrrr

>shoved down the audiences throats
There's the stain glass in the church and the pose from OP and they are on screen for a few seconds.

Sup Forums really does make mountains out of mole hills.

>Huuuuuurrrr Snyder a hack duuuuurrrrrr

Pretty much yeah, a few salient points doesn't erase the film being a clusterfuck.

All I'm getting from this thread is that it's pretentious, but that seems like a silly reason to hate on a Supermann movie

No one's sole complaint about MoS is the christ imagery, it's a single turd in a sea of piss.

a nugget in a jar full of piss would you say?

This. Sup Forums has completely overblown the imagery and has exaggerate it merely for the sake of argument.

Because it's really ''in your face'' kind of cinematography and Snyder goes overboard with it.

Snyder isn't a christian.

He doesn't believe that Jesus is a savior and by painting Superman as Jesus, he himself does not believe that Superman is a savior which is why he is so broody and incapable of showcasing love and care beyond saving people (out of duty)

>but you don't need to be religious to use religious imagery
Countless great Superman stories are able to write Superman as a great savior and an idol to look up to without needing biblical analogies, there is no reason to need to say Superman is Jesus who is a savior when you can just say Superman is a savior

Because those are the examples of christian imaginery.
You also have that shot of that woman reaching out into the air at Superman.

The fact that people praise this film student-tier cinematography is baffling.

Superman is the least pretentious superhero in the world. He's one hundred percent genuine. Playing up just that one aspect of him and doing so in such a shallow way just sort of underlines how little Snyder grasps the character outside of his very own narrow conceptions. Like how he's Moses and not Jesus.

>Because those are the examples of christian imaginery.
>You also have that shot of that woman reaching out into the air at Superman.
>The fact that people praise this film student-tier cinematography is baffling.
Well what else is she going to do in that scenario? Play dead until Supes grabs her?

Because it's entry level cinematography, and Snyder, who is at his 50's, is still doing this.
He goes completely out of his way to show these shots.

The fact that the woman is randomly reaching out with her hand to Superman is absolutely retarded and out of place.

It's like that moment in MoS when Superman drowns in skulls even though that scene comes out of nowhere.
Snyder has been always a music video director, he doesn't know how to make these shots happen fluidly, he always goes out of his way to show this because that's what he did throughout most of his career.

Superman stopped being Moses the moment the jews lost control of the character. You pander to western audiences you prop up the jew on a stick, not the fictional baby killer that should have drowned in the river.

1. It's blatant and not interesting beyond the surface level.
2. It doesn't really serve the movie properly. While the idea is to give Superman a sense of (generic) Godhood, it ends up feeling like they're trying to give him a sense of Christhood (because it uses stricly Christian imagery only), which isn't the same thing, or consistent with the way he acts.
3. It's sometimes so forced that it makes you scratch your head. Because of it Superman was 33 in MoS post spaceship. Which means:
>he spent fucking 14 years doing nothing of interest and not growing as a character
>he acts incredibly teenagey for a 30 year old
>it prevents any cool "young Superman" stories (like LOSH) from happening in this continuity
4. Some people don't like religion.

It's a lot easier to disguise a lack of characterization by just saying "Person A is like Person B who is kind" over and over again instead of saying "Person A is kind"

It's a common idea executed as if it's a genius one. Would be fine if it was just there but it seems like it's done because they think it's groundbreaking.

overdone, boring, lazy

Because he has spent 2 movies already hamfisting this idea.
The few people who noticed this got it half-way through MoS.

>It's like that moment in MoS when Superman drowns in skulls even though that scene comes out of nowhere.
The entire scene was about Zod recreating Krypton by killing the Earth and its people, did you watch the movie or just get your info from shit posts?

Done tastefully, it could actually be quite good. There's been Christ imagery in Superman comics before and I've never minded it. However, it's hamhanded and isn't so much imagery as it is Snyder grabbing you by the back of the head and shoving your face into the screen and yelling "LOOK HOW CLEVER I AM".

Because it's basic iconography when your country is mostly Christian. It's likely Snyder using his own ubringing or his own religion to bear on these characters. Which is fine, your upbringing affects your art, but Snyder uses it so heavyhandedly and so blatantly that it removes any subtlety from its inclusion and kills the epic theme that he's going for by using these images in the first place. He also often forgoes actual character development because he thinks he can get away with having recognizable characters be recognizable as other characters.

Plus, Jesus doesn't have too much to do with Superman at his earliest conception. He was Moses and Samson, with the Nietzchean Ubermensch as a canvas. Man of Steel, story wise, focuses more on Kal as an immigrant, and features a doomsday machine that splits an ocean, but there's next to fuck all Moses imagery in the film.

Like someone's said, it's pretentious, and it also seems kind of hollow because it's not really supported by the narrative in the movie, where Superman is not particularly Christ-like or spiritual at all.
Honestly, I always found it weird when people cast Superman as a Christ figure, he's not a messiah and he's (mostly) not a martyr, either. Some writers can make it work, but it's kind of a pointless analogy to me.

Literally everybody gets that, user.

Except this thread is proof they didn't.

But thanks for playing.

That scene was pure symbolism and came out of nowhere.
If he wanted to do something less subtle he would have to put Superman nailed in a cross.

>4. Some people don't like religion.
Retarded complaint. You're telling me people will through a bitch fit because some guy turned water into wine but a guy flying with no propulsion system and able to lift things a million times his own body weight is A-okay?

Synder was a Christian scientist.

>So what exactly is wrong with the Christ imagery in MoS and BvS?

It's tired in comics?

I wonder how it would be if Snyder spent all the effort put into symbolism into making a cohesive story.

>Snyder grew up in Greenwich, Conn. His mother was a painter and a photographer; his father was head of human resources at American Can and a sports fanatic like his son. The family belonged to the Christian Science Church, whose members believe that sin and illness are nothing but illusions. Snyder attended the Daycroft School, a Christian Science school in Greenwich, and a summer camp run by the church in Maine. “It was pretty hard-core,” he says.

>Snyder’s religious upbringing made him receptive to books and movies with sacred themes. He was overwhelmed by Star Wars when his mother took him to see it in 1977. The Force reminded him of the heavenly powers Christian Scientists believe in. The same year, his mother gave him a movie camera, and he started making short stop-action films.

Also
>Snyder spent a year studying painting at the Heatherley School of Fine Art in London and then transferred to the Art Center School of Design in Pasadena, where one classmate was Michael Bay, future purveyor of cinematic mayhem.
Huh.

Because he has been hamfisting the idea that people see Superman as a God for two movies already.
We get it, people think of him as Jesus, he doesn't seem to like it.
Move on.

I just hope the ''leaks'' about Justice League are true, because I can see that Snyder will revive Superman 3 days after his death.

>it's blatant
As opposed to being an esoteric reference? Yeah the use of messianic imagery is recognizable because Christianity is one the three major religion.

But that's wrong you retard.

I'm not going to say the Christ pose by Atom isn't intentional or anything, but the pose itself is just a generic pose that works when a hero is captive or hurt. How else is he supposed to be held down? An X pose? Arms above the head? One arm in, one arm out, one leg shaking all about?

>because I can see that Snyder will revive Superman 3 days after his death.
They literally moved the release date of the movie just so it would open on Good Friday.

It's not a complaint, I'm explaining to you that
>You're telling me people will through a bitch fit because some guy turned water into wine but a guy flying with no propulsion system and able to lift things a million times his own body weight is A-okay?
Yes.

>went out of his way
Have to call bullshit. None of those shots were particularly awkward as if Synder hard to latbor to include. All of them seem pretty natural.

>As opposed to being an esoteric reference?
No as opposed to being subtle.
It's not messianic imagery it's Christ imagery, exclusively, it doesn't show a savior it shows a guy making the cross with his arms.

>symbolism
You wish
"I just like skulls, I don't know why" - Zack Snyder.

Because as hard as he tried, he fucked it up. Christ like imagery is all well and good, but you've got to do more than male him brooding or put him in front of some painted glass. Jesus had friends. Jesus went to parties. Well, weddings. But he hooked them up with more wine, so I'm counting it. Most importantly, though, as he went around anoint people, Jesus went out of his eat to COMFORT AND REASSURE THE PEOPLE HE WAS FUCKING THERE TO HELP. Jesus Christ, how hard is it to show some compassion or even some goddamn interest in the people you're there to save.

Say what you want about Injustice. It had one perfect fucking scene.

>Supes saves a boy
>boy starts trying to thank him in (I think) Arabic
>"I'm sorry. I don't speak Arabic. I should learn."

Some desire to connect with people and try to communicate and comfort people even through language barriers. This superman just floats sons and broods. Louis and his mother are the only people he seems to actually give a damn about. Fuck. And here, because I know you're waiting for it, and I'm basically thinking it
>not muh Superman

I didn't mean to imply it was your complaint. I just think anyone who actually thinks that is dumb. Why wouldn't a fedorafag just rationalize it as a fictional work referencing another fictional work?

Yeah, ham-fisted handling is my problem. Plus, I'm sick of the comparison. Superman isn't Jesus. I think it's unoriginal and lazy. You don't need to associate the character with a popular religion to tell the audience they're the good guy.

Wait that doesn't make sense
>only Christians can use Christian symbolism
>if anyone else does it, it should be viewed as insincere and disingenuous.

>Sup Forums talking about subtle
Sup Forums wouldn't know what Subtle was if it bit them on the dick.

Because it's overdone and in your face. Plus super pretentious and try hard.

Superman Returns was just as bad with this, and so the originals 70's movies a bit.

Snyder is the Hideo Kojima of movies.

And neither would Snyder, but I'm not the one pretending people don't get what I say because I'm too deep.

Because militant atheists can be just as dumb as militant religious people.
And God knows they get triggered by fiction.

It's a few steps from just plain sticking a "HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE JESUS" text in the middle of the screen.

Alternatively, it's the movie equivalent to a guy nudging you in the ribs while saying "get it? GET IT?" in a theater.

Because it's shoved in our faces every 10 seconds.

>those typos
Fuck I need to calm down.

>so, Superman comes from like, really far away from, like, a really cool place, right?
>and so he comes to Earth which is like, super lame next to where he's from but he like, helps people here

That is as close as Superman gets to actually being a Jesus allegory, but Zack clearly thinks that is the most amazing discovery ever the way he bangs on about it.

> because god forbid they get confused or offended,

I'm getting real sick of how we, the fans of the original material that gets adapted, have to hold the hands and have things dumbed down for people don't care?

Aren't you? Fuck casuals. If they get confused it's their dumbass fault, don't make the rest of us, the people who made this market demand in the first place, suffer because of their stupidity.

It's just excessive. Snyder thinks it's super deep and cool, but it's an idea that's been around for ages, amd just cramming it down our throat is just too much. We get it, he's like Jesus, so fucking what? One Christ pose would be enough, but we get endless imagery, scenes replicating religious paintings, the movie releasing on Easter weekend with Superman dying and coming back to life just to really drive it home, people worshipping him, people in the movie straight up calling him a Christ figure, Lex giving a big speech about it, Batman litterally making a fucking spear to kill him with as opposed to bullets, batarangs, knives, or anything he's proficient in or that's relatively effective JUST so we can get another Christ reference in. Like for fuck sakes.

>Symbolism I understand
Ham fisted

>Symbolism I didn't understand
pretentious

It was a little less obvious in the 1978 movie, then again thats the best Cape film ever made so people aren't bound to nitpick every single thing in it.

>Symbolism that fails to be attached to a meaningful emotional moment in a character's story arc

poop

It's funny, OP asks a question that he probably never wanted a good answer to, people respond genuinely, and he just sticks his fingers in his ears when he hears something he doesn't like.

Eh. Welcome to Sup Forums.

Except it isn't.

This thread is just bitching at what is only the first half of a statement being made. It's akin to watching The Matrix trilogy and complaining about the Christ parallels with Neo. Sup Forums leaves it at "these things exist and I don't like it".

Completely missing that those things exist in the films to make a larger point. Superman isn't Jesus. Superman hates being compared to Jesus. Superman is just a man trying to do good.

I still think it's odd that you compare Superman to Jesus and you still have him kill somebody...

Are you trying to imply God never killed anyone?

Good lord who let this nobody speak

I didn't mind it. It was hardly that big of a deal.

say that to my face fagit

That's cool, different strokes and whatever.

it's simple, like so simple. And despite it being so easy to do they managed to make it hamfisted as fuck in both MoS and BvS.

>HE'S JESUS LOOK LOOK HE'S FALING IN A CROSS POSE BECAUSE HE'S JESUS.

>snyder I think you're missing the point of a super hero movie
>MUH MODER MYTHOLOGY snyder yells while jacking off to high qaulity ann rand porn