What the fuck, Clint?

What the fuck, Clint?

>Clint having beef with Tony
Well, they finally nailed his character

well, Rhodie's back getting broken was Tony's fault. And Visions. And Steve's...

He's in a maximum security prison separated from his wife and kids, with the knowledge his surrogate daughter/little sister is in equally terrible conditions. Plus Rhodey's injury is because Tony called the kill shot on the Quinjet instead of just hacking or tracking it though I guess like when Hulk disappeared it's hard to track but if anything Tony should have learned from that and made the others less troublesome to deal with if hijacked.

Tony lost his shit. I think Clint has the right to question his judgment.

But wasn't Clint the one who willingly choose to get out of retirement to join Cap knowing that he would be a wanted criminal and likely can't see his wife and kids again? What was he expecting after he helped Cap.

>He's in a maximum security prison separated from his wife and kids
He's the one who chose to abandon them.

>with the knowledge his surrogate daughter/little sister is in equally terrible conditions.
Because of him. He got her involved in the fight!

>Plus Rhodey's injury is because Tony called the kill shot on the Quinjet instead of just hacking or tracking it
It was none of those things.

It was Rhodey who made the call, not Tony.
Falcon was the target, not the Quinjet.
And it wasn't a killshot, but "He's got thrusters. Make him a glider.".

Clint accepting the consequences does not make them acceptable.

Thought that was the movie's version of not-Matt giving him a piece of silver.

>Not being pissed at the guy that messed with your daughteru

This feels like one of those situations where people are going to side with Clint just because he's "The snarky guy" and got the last word in. Regardless of whether he's even right or not.

>He got her involved in the fight!
Technically he got her OUT of Vision Prison.

Also Rhodey's fate is all the more deserving and ironic if that's the case.

Man that original
>"hurr have some more silver JUDAS"
scene was terrible and hamfisted, even for the civil war comic in general.

Clint accepted Cap's request for help against Zemo and the Winter Soldiers.

Tony and co. interfering with their mission was not on the cards for him.

Yeah, because his last encounter with Vision went so well.

>Not being willing to fight the impossible fight to free your daughteru
you are a terrible papa

Switch Clint with CIA and Tony with Bane.

This really drained all the sympathy I had for Clint. Way to ignore your own actions you jerk.

Bane?

>to be fair we didn't expect to get caught

>Regardless of whether he's even right or not.
They're in a super max prison, man. Come on.

Are you telling me you'd just shrug if the guy who could and should have just played ball to spare everyone showed up to take a look at the animals in the zoo, then dipped? Not so much as a
>I'll see if I can get you guys out of here or better accomodations
He doesn't even try. He spends the rest of his day beating up Bucky and Steve.

>join ISIS
>get arrested
>WOOOW! I DID NOTHING YOU FASCISTS PIGS!

Maybe he should have thought it before joining a fugitive criminal.

>Technically he got her OUT of Vision Prison.
>Abloobloo I keep killing a bunch of people every time I go to Africa and now I have to stay in a mansion with my boyfriend
If she didn't have friends in high places she'd be in a much harsher prison than the Raft from the very beginning.

He didn't expect his friends to betray him.

She didn't commit a crime, if she hadn't acted alot more people would have died

>who could and should have just played ball
VERY debatable.

Tony spells out to everyone that he has 12 hours to bring in Bucky or Ross will ram them all in the ass, and he's not unreasonable for thinking Cap might be too trusting of his butt buddy.

>He doesn't even try. He spends the rest of his day beating up Bucky and Steve.
Other shit kind of came up.

that entire scene was the movie telling everyone that Tony was wrong

even though he obviously wasn't

You forgetting about South Africa?

Except they're being held in an underwater prison without due process or a trial. I'm not even a libtard but this is Guantanamo-level dickery.

Remember how the CIA officer dismissed Bucky getting a lawyer? No shit Steve was wary of having his best friend who was brainwashed and conditioned into an assassin being handled by the authorities.

Ross and his ilk are not interested in keeping the Avengers accountable so much as retain them as assets for US foreign policy and black ops. The MCU is subtly addressing Ultimate Marvel's theme about a metahuman arms race between the world powers. And Tony fell for it because he was guilt-tripped from that dead kid's mom.

I do feel that the way presented CW in the movie is FAR more reasonable than the comics. But there's still a sinister motive behind everything. Especially Ross of all people since he unleashed the Abomination.

It's interesting how nobody brought up that SHIELD was corrupted by HYDRA and that a Senator and even the Vice-President of the USA were complicit with nefarious groups yet Tony and Ross demand the Avengers to comply with UN oversight; including nations with questionable and even downright violations of human rights?

>Other shit kind of came up.

Boohoo he killed my mom while under mind control

It's still his fault. He ditched his family to go commit crimes because he was bored. He's a selfish asshole and his family is paying for it.

Fuck Ross and his 12 hours. Zemo was 12 more steps ahead of them every time Steve had to humor this bureaucratic bullshit.

>Especially Ross of all people since he unleashed the Abomination.
>People are still repeating this falsehood in [current year]

>It's interesting how nobody brought up that SHIELD was corrupted by HYDRA and that a Senator and even the Vice-President of the USA were complicit with nefarious groups yet Tony and Ross demand the Avengers to comply with UN oversight; including nations with questionable and even downright violations of human rights?
It would be far easier and more likely for the Avengers themselves to have a sinister, unified agenda than the governments of 117 countries.

TWS' plot warns about the dangers of giving "heroes" the ability to bypass the law to "do what needs to be done".

>because he was bored
He wanted to protect and help Wanda/If Cap asks your help you dont say no.

Cap was wrong about Zemo using the Winter Soldiers, though. He fell for Zemo's trick to create a false sense of urgency. They could have gone in with Tony without losing anything.

>It's interesting how nobody brought up that SHIELD was corrupted by HYDRA and that a Senator and even the Vice-President of the USA were complicit with nefarious groups yet Tony and Ross demand the Avengers to comply with UN oversight; including nations with questionable and even downright violations of human rights?
Cap did, the whole thing about people having their own agendas
It's only one more point to the "Cap was right" debate

You know, as much as I see MCU Tony as a very flawed and complex human being; he really has NO leg to stand on.

- Profited off of the military-industrial complex for years
- Was completely blind to Obadiah Stane's shady dealings
- Unleashed Ultron on the world. He was messing with forces outside of his understanding (the mind gem/scepter) and Sokovia paid for it dearly

And Howard Stark was as much as an asshole by deporting Whiplash's dad to a Soviet labor camp.

Hank Pym was absolutely right; Never trust a Stark.

I'm also disappointed that the Avengers didn't assist in the rescue and clean-up after Sokovia. In fact, did they even help NYC after the battle?

they helped themselves to some schwarma

To be fair, Tony watched his mom get her neck broken by a guy next to him. That shit would piss anyone off.

I'm surprised nobody calls out on Wanda's brainwashing and how it caused Hulk to go apeshit.

He may not have intended for Abomination to be created, but Blonsky was a loose cannon that Ross ignored. Don't forget that Ross wants Banner so that he can create more Hulks for the military.

There was absolutely no way for Steve to know Zemo wouldn't use the Winter Soldiers before it was too late.

Tony saw first hand with the use of the Raft that Ross will play by his own rules (so Steve would have been locked up there too after violating the Accord while Zemo's allowed to do who knows what), there was still time, seeing how he interfered with their surveillance he could and should have devised a way to quietly break them all out and never allied with Ross again. Instead he just lets them rot.

Tony was wrong and absolutely the wrong side to pick.

And Rhodey hit back with the fact that shit isn't some shadowy organization - It's the UN. Steve is arguing with the governments of the entire world here.

Plus, when you have hundreds or thousands of people, it's a lot harder for any of them to abuse power toward any of their agendas. When someone can act unilaterally (like Steve wants to), there's nothing in place to prevent HIM from advancing whatever agenda he might have.

Steve is asking for everyone to treat him as the exception from everyone else on Earth, who shouldn't have to follow rules because he knows best.

>Don't forget that Ross wants Banner so that he can create more Hulks for the military.
Literally nothing villainous about wanting to create super soldiers.

>he could and should have devised a way to quietly break them all out
He may not have agreed with putting them on the Raft, but Tony still agreed that they shouldn't have become criminals, and that criminals should be arrested.

Not tcompany war at all genuine question but isn't showing heroes helping after a fight more a DC thing? Even the Bat is often shown cleaning up parts of his mess to some degree. And the League is often shown doing just general good will missions. I can't think of any Marvel heroes that do. At least not often.

>The United Nations Security Council "power of veto" refers to the veto power wielded solely by the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council (China, France, Russia, United Kingdom, and United States), enabling them to prevent the adoption of any "substantive" resolution, as well as decide which issues fall under "substantive" title.

Sounds pretty fucking easy for powerful countries to abuse power for their own agendas.

He at least had a better eye for psychopaths

>we need to be put in check
>BUT HOLD UP LET ME DO SEVERAL UNCHECKED THINGS FIRST

this bothered me more than that hydra agent death

The UN regulated SHIELD and look how that turned out.

>You forgetting about South Africa?
Then give her a tria and charge her for something. If you are going to just imprison her outright then you can forget about justice.

>and that criminals should be arrested.
In a legally devoid underwater super max prison?

Exactly. Fucking China and Russia are on the National Security Council despite their long history of human rights violations. How is this any different from the World Security Council that oversaw SHIELD?

For one, that can only prevent action. It doesn't allow unilateral action.

Secondly, that's still a lot of people with competing agendas.

>Names all the bad shit Tony has done as if that wasn't his main reason for supporting the legislation in the first place.

Tony was leading the charge on the accords because of the massive amount of blood on his hands. He's responsible for more death than anyone else. It's easy for someone like Cap to oppose being controlled because he hasn't done anything wrong, but Tony is responsible for exponentially more damage. It's just that the only other person on the team who REALLY knows what it's like to have that much damage to answer to is Bruce, and he's nowhere to be found.

No, the World Security Council did.

The WSC is a much smaller group of people who can do a lot more than just block action.

Where she also stopped a possibly global ending virus. And if she didn't lift the guy when she did more would have died.

I think Falcon opening fire in a populated area is worse.

The fact it was even a criminal act in the first place is because of Tony's piss poor judgement. They were locked up as if they were Loki tier threats to the world when all they were doing was trying to take down Zemo to clear an innocent(ish) mans name, and to stop what they suspected to be six crazed super soldiers being unleashed upon the world. The only people in danger were the ones that Tony himself brought to the fight, otherwise they would have just all flown out to a wasteland and neatly tied things up.

These people risk their lives for this world (Hell, WM practically ordered a kill shot on Falcon) and because Tony can't get over his own guilt of creating Ultron, they are being treated like monsters.

>She didn't commit a crime

Helping Ultron isn't a crime?

How the fuck can anyone support Tony when he took in a child soldier? Doesn't Peter have to sign the Accords since he's part of Tony's Avengers? He can't keep Spider-Man a secret from Ross since Vision, Rhodes, BW, and BP saw him.

What if Ross demands for Peter to be brought in for study so that they can replicate his spider-powers to create an even better version of the Super-Soldier process? Remember, that's why MCU Hulk was created because Ross was trying to emulate it. Spider-Man is a perfect median in-between peak human Cap and monster Hulk.

took them about 6 films...

Nigeria and South Africa are two different countries, Vision.

>How the fuck can anyone support Tony when he took in a child soldier?

Because he was perfectly knowledgeable of his physical limits and even sent him home when it became too much?

>Tony called the kill shot on the Quinjet
Rhodey: "Vision, do you copy? Target his thrusters, make him a glider"

But, sure, it was TOTALLY Tony's fault.

Gods I hate you shits with zero retention.

Seeing as creating him isn't I don't see why it would be!

It literally gives Ross direct and unqualified veto powers over anything the Avengers try that he doesn't like.Also:

>What if we need to act, and they won't let us?

China and Russia wouldn't let the Avengers ever combat Chinese or Russians, which seem to be half the bad guys running around.

>Ross and his ilk are not interested in keeping the Avengers accountable so much as retain them as assets for US foreign policy and black ops.

Fucking this. I'm baffled how everyone actually believes the reason the Sokovia Accords were being imposed was to damage control the Avengers (and other meta). It was already pointed out that being registered or not wouldn't have changed a thing. It's obvious the UN used this reason as a pretext to have the Avengers as their own personal force. Like, it's hard for the Avengers to be opposed by that when you just came back from the disaster in Africa.

As they are, these guys are dangerous on their own and are vastly capable of wrecking a few small country on their own and going toe-to-toe with bigger armed force. Their decision is based on doing what's right but there is no guarantee for everyone else that they can trust them. Having supervision over them would avoid and prevent the Avengers to ever go rogue. More so, it gives access to a strong task force that is forced to do as you will. The UN could easily diverge the group outward Hydra to say, go after this random palestinian guy that poses a threat to Israel. Or something.

It's not a stretch to imagine that considering how Ross was adamant to have Abomination as part of the Avengers. Before the Sokovia accord, Abomination could have been used as an inside man to him.

That is what Steve is worried about. He don't want his group to be compromise on their actions, legitimately believing they are doing what's better. And basing on his last experiences with Hydra, Rodgers wants to avoid all risk of the UN (or any organization) to use the Avengers on evil uses.

Tony told Pete to stand back and web everybody up, and immediately sent him home as soon as he saw that he got hurt.

What the fuck do the Avengers do in their compound? Shouldn't they train to deal with situations like this so that Wanda can have a better handle of her powers?

I wonder how Ross was going to induct Banner and Thor into the Accords? Thor is an Asgardian and isn't bound by the laws of Earth. Good luck trying to enforce that.

>Steve is arguing with the governments of the entire world here.
CAPTAIN STEVEN GRANT "CAPTAIN AMERICA(N DREAM)" ROGERS saved all those governments from HYDRA a year ago from people they had brought in or allied with who were part of HYDRA.

Fuck them.
Fuck their judgment.
Fuck their politics.
Fuck their cities.
Fuck their citizens.

There is only one man on the entire planet who can be trusted with the lives of everyone on the entire planet and he's wearing the red, the white, the blue and the colors true.

he blackmailed the kid into a fight without telling him the details of why they were fighting.
and by joining, essentially undid the terms of the blackmail.

I'll write it down in my journal.

Red tape gets in the way, yeah, but it exists to prevent any one group from having too much power. That includes the Avengers, who we only know are totally trustworthy because we're the audience.

He also lied to him and manipulated him so he would fight Captain America.

Tony is a true asshole.

>It's not a stretch to imagine that considering how Ross was adamant to have Abomination as part of the Avengers. Before the Sokovia accord, Abomination could have been used as an inside man to him.
Thunderbolts is gonna be Zemo, Abomination, and other MCU villains working as a government-sanctioned squad.

wait they were trying to shoot the Quinjet? I thought Rhodey was telling him to shoot Sam down because Sam was slowing Tony down from catching up to the quinjet?

Damn. I thought it was like cruel irony that Rhodey got hit since what happened to him was essentially what he wanted Vision to do to Sam. Which really threw me off when Tony got all pissy and shot Sam afterwards.

I really misread that scene then...

>He also lied to him

Name one lie he told him.

You do realise that many acts of progress have been stopped by the UN simply by a single prominent superpower saying no, right? China is never going to allow countries to be independent without one hell of a fight because then discussion will turn to the likes of Tibet and Hong Kong.

What's to stop Russia saying no to the Avengers simply because a sizeable threat is at least leaving them alone?

That is such a load of horseshit. You can't bring 15-year-old kids into situations where they could die and then just act like everything is okay just because they didn't die. Tony lucked out that Pete got away with just a black eye.

>Having supervision over them would avoid and prevent the Avengers to ever go rogue.
Yes, this is the point. It's an important one. Someone needs to watch the watchmen.

He told him that Cap was a liar that could never be trusted.

>He told him that Cap was a liar that could never be trusted.

That's absolutely true, though.

He committed a pretty severe lie of omission.

>We protected you, so let us do whatever we need to
That's how HYDRA/SHIELD gained power begin with.

Yes, but its still morally right for Cap to do what he did, because HE KNOWS as himself that he is totally trustworthy.

Its not impossible for two sides to being the right thing from their own perspectives.

>The US withdrew from compulsory jurisdiction back in 1986 after the UN court ruled that America’s covert war against Nicaragua was in violation of international law.

Just another example of how shit and ineffective the UN is. The Avengers would never, ever get near cataclysmic events if they were under UN control. It would literally take moths to get permission to be sent anywhere, and the world would be literally destroyed by then.

this is only a problem when their leader doesn't have a strong enough moral sense and authority to keep everyone in check.

they go rogue because they have a weak leader.

Then that just makes Cap a bigger fucking asshole. If you know someone has a family and the consequences for them will be terrible, and you know that because of your reputation as Mr. Perfect, Embodiment of Justice, then you DON'T ASK THEM.

And all he did was fuck Wanda over. He didn't protect/help her. Where was she before he interfered? In house arrest, safe from the many, many people and governments who wanted to see her lynched, with freedom to do whatever she wanted other than leave the house and wreck the peace process by doing so. Where was she after he convinced her to break out of said house and go on yet another rampage? Shackled and chained with no one to help her in a tiny cell.

What a wonderful job of "protecting" her he did.

...

19 isn't a child soldier.

That Tony did not know about at the time. Tony only told Peter that for the sake of using him. Tony uses everyone for his own goals. It's part of his character.

We can't really because we didn't see what Tony told him, but from what Pete said about "Mr. Stark said your wrong and you think you're right" there are implications that Tony only told him the parts the made himself look good.

I mean, this is Tony Stark, I wouldn't expect a fair and balanced explanation either.

Go to bed Vision

He is 15 bro.

Well-said.

But 15 is you mongoloid.

>That Tony did not know about at the time.

Why does that matter if it's true?

No, but 15 is.

Fucking Christ Tony at least learn how old people are before you press them into service

Because in the context of him telling Peter this shit he had no idea it was true. He did it because he knew Peter would listen to Cap and switch sides.

So how do these accords effect literally everybody outside the Avengers? Are the Hells Kitchen quartet full on criminals now? When the Guardians swoop down should they be arrested even though only one is from Earth?

Can you still just operate as a hero in a country that didn't sign it?

I want to fuck Aunt May.

Dingdingdingdingdingdingding...

That sort of thing is on Bruce and Tony's head, they should sort it out in therapy or sign up for something only to see it predictably go wrong. Dragging close associates into it because their reckless actions costing others is the peak of irony.

Everyone. Literally everyone who has sided with Captain America since day one has been right or seen Justice in some form. How many for the Starks?
Everyone who has opposed Captain America has been knowingly wrong or found themselves part of doing wrong.

Look at the stats, they don't lie.

Tony cannot call for dick at a meeting where most of his associates have better judgment track records than him. If anything he should have folded and followed Steve to learn and see why he's right. Pepper's disappointed in him, his father's disappointed in him, his friends are disappointed in him. It's time to throw in the towel.