Vision makes the argument that simply by existing, Superheroes invite extreme danger and catastrophe, implying that if there weren't any Superheroes then the threats wouldn't have to reach such ridiculous proportions to challenge them.
Where would the MCU be without any superheroes? What threats or villains would have emerged on their own anyway and could the world have dealt with them on its own without "super" intervention?
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All the villains of:
Iron Man 1/2
Thor-Avengers
Hulk
Avengers 2
Wouldn't exist if wasn't for the heroes, or wouldn't attack Earth
The thing I find fascinating about this is that, if you go chronologically, he's wrong. Red Skull existed first, and Captain America rose to challenge HIM. I think it's unique in that, mostly the villain comes after the hero, not before.
Technically his argument can be turned around. Only reason USA ok'd a Super Soldier program was because they extradited the scientist who turned Red Skull into who he is.
If it wasn't for Skull, he would have not pursued the tesseract, ergo it would still be hidden and dormant.
Hive mind in effect
IIRC He didnt said that heroes are the reason that vilains exist, but that the fact that heroes exist creates even more vilains who have to be up the challenge.
Vision's argument is that he doesn't understand the difference between correlation and causation.
Also Ant-Man
But he is right on that case.
Come watch Civil War with us
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And then argue about Vision
it's like nukes
once america got one and used it everyone wanted to have them and everyone was scared shitless of everyone else
read one punch man and you will see a similar argument where an alien space ship shows up, destroys a city, and gets destroyed
the good guys won but the collateral was unacceptable
The villain's entire motivation was the original Ant-Man.
That's cute and all but the MCU world would be a HYDRA one without some opposition, so it's either some people dying in the struggle against that or everyone living in absolute laser guided slavery under threat of instant death.
>Red Skull wins WW2
Assuming the heroes don't exist at all, not just as heroes
>Hammer Industries tied with Stane Industries in weapons manufacturing
>No Iron Monger
>No YellowJacket
>No Whiplash?
>No Abomination
>Loki takes over Asgard, never meets Thanos?
>Dark Elves awaken and do as they please
>Ronan does as he pleases
>No Ultron
>No Scarlet Waifu and Quickslav
>No Zemo
reminder that thanos has to kill vision and get his infinity gem
But you've got Cap and his villains, who would've existed without him, and who would've destroyed the world twice over if not for him
Whoops, misread. NM
It's just the writers trying to handwave the increasingly silly number of world changing events happening in such a short time.
But wouldn't anything involving Asgard not change, since it's just a different society? So Loki would still go about his business, with nobody but Thor to take him on.
Unless Thor counts as a superhero, even in regards to Asgard
There are a few faults with this line of thinking.
For one, while there "may not be supervillains," a faulty line of reasoning if there ever was one, this does not mean that everything would be the same but minus supervillain plots. Superheroes can and do save people from regular, ordinary villains and general bad situations. There would be a whole group of dead US soldiers if Captain America hadn't saved them in his first movie, for example. So no superheroes would mean that the people of the world would be suffering from unnecessary troubles, which the superheroes easily end up solving.
Second, while some supervillains appear or are created due to the presence of superheroes, not all are. Hydra would've still been a thing and still have as much influence if Captain America hadn't been around. Loki was certainly willing to cause problems even before Thor decided to man up into a superhero. And there are other examples, such as supervillains who are fine with robbing banks or other non-super villainy. So the absence of superheroes would not mean an absence of supervillains.
So the problem boils down to the question of if it is better to deal with the existing problems/supervillains with normal non-super means, or if it is better to have superheroes and deal with the greater threats produced as a result. It's basically an armament question: is it better to possess weapons to defend oneself, knowing that others will attack as a result of doing so? But the finer points of that are probably hard to convey in a few seconds of dialogue.
His argument, if correct (which is a huge if but let's go with it), only points out that there are more supervillains in proportion to the number of heroes that appear. It does not, however, address how the Accords solve this at all. Or how the Accords address their responsibility in the matter. So great, Vision. You can math. Who fucking cares?
Within the MCU this is largely correct.
Red Skull is basically the only super-villain which isn't a direct by product of the hero.
I think people are misinterpreting this line.
He says their existence invites challenge. That doesn't mean that everything was started by them. It just means that more superpowered people are being created as a result. It's like a domino effect or a kind of worldwide cold war.
Don't know that Vision can't live without the Mind Stone. It's a part of him and partially engendered his consciousness but it did for Ultron as well.
>Ronan gets the power stone unimpeded
>Destroys Bandar
>Thanks kills him and takes the stone
>Xandar*
God, autocorrect, give me a break. What the hell is a Bandar?
>
>So the problem boils down to the question of if it is better to deal with the existing problems/supervillains with normal non-super means, or if it is better to have superheroes and deal with the greater threats produced as a result. It's basically an armament question: is it better to possess weapons to defend oneself, knowing that others will attack as a result of doing so? But the finer points of that are probably hard to convey in a few seconds of dialogue.
But user that's what the whole point of sokovia accords was
Somehow misquoted
>Thanos kills him and takes the stone
Do you hear that Mister Anderson? That's the sound of INFINITY
He's not arguing against the existence of superheroes, he's just pointing out the obvious.
He's just saying that yeah, the world obviously needs superheroes but that they bring in more challengers. It's not a hard concept
>No Scarlet Waifu and Quickslav
StarkTech probably still blows them up, though. It just has StaneTech written on the missile.
Red Skull existed but Erksine tried to make the first superhuman
so in a sense, and old german royally fucked the MCU by kicking off the enhanced arms race
**because not but, fucking auto correct
Super Soldier or no Hitler would still want in on that Infinity Game tho. Which would likely still lead to the enhancing project Pietro and Wanda are subjected to later, so while there may not be Super and Winter Soldiers, depending on whether HYDRA still takes interest in genetic modification, there would be a lot of freaks all the same.
Correlation does not imply causation. Stupid robot.
...
His argument holds some water. The only two villains that struck first were Red Skull and Ronan
And Loki
But those alone are enough to result in world domination and, given how Ronan and Thanos roll, World destruction.
It would be an affair of less conflict and competitors stepping up to a challenge certainly, but it would be a shorter one as well because everyone would just be Power Gem'd into nonexistence and that would be the end of it.
This bloodier alternative is not ideal, but less unrecoverable. The survivors of the tragic struggles at the very least have the opportunity to voice complaints.
>He's just saying that yeah, the world obviously needs superheroes but that they bring in more challengers. It's not a hard concept
No, he is "implying" something without saying it, because he is aware that the logic is unsound. By merely implying it, he didn't need to defend an undefendable position but instead skips the question instead. In short, he was learning to be a lying SOB, and why he is now likely Unworthy according to the script writers themselves.
And fucking HYDRA.
People do bad things because they want to, not because they want a fight. Green Goblin would still be insane, Bullseye would still kill people.
Rona
Thanos
Loki
The space elves
Holy shit I just realized with his hyper processing intellect there's a small possibility Vision sided with the Accords to get himself in the position of playing guard to a vulnerable Wanda.
I think he's a rapebot.
>I think he's a rapebot.
I got that impression the moment Wanda flat out stated that he goes into her room without knocking. He probably peeped on her rubbing one out.
>Don't know that Vision can't live without the Mind Stone.
But it's not like he's just going to give it to Thanos.
>Vision makes the argument that simply by existing, Superheroes invite extreme danger and catastrophe, implying that if there weren't any Superheroes then the threats wouldn't have to reach such ridiculous proportions to challenge them.
it was at this point that The Vision realized he was in a comic book movie, and he kinda just went for it.
>I think he's a rapebot.
Then it is perhaps ironic that Wanda is the only female on Earth he is unable to rape then, as I am not sure anyone else could have defeated him in battle.
>Dark Elves awaken and do as they please
Sooo... the entire universe is destroyed?
At least until Thanos shows up to claim whats his I guess
All any of this proves is that superheroes are a dumb as hell concept, especially when applied to the real world.
I don't follow comics, but I'm sure at least one of the countless universe-threatening antagonists must have been on the path to fucking up Earth sooner or later without hero interference.
Well, HYDRA would've glassed all mayor countries and controlled everything if Cap hadn't stopped them both times they attempted this so far.
Don't forget Thanos is still out there doing as he pleases too.
>Thanos
>Ronan
>Loki
>The Dark Elves
I'd thown in Stane too. He was fukcing with shit for profits with or without Tony and his armor.
i love this argument, it's so fucking nutty.
hilariously it's the inverse of the argument dumbfags use to insult corporations. like, the economy they're "plundering" wouldnt exist without them
That's always been the avengers tho, villains come from them more than they go stop villains.
However
>Loki
Made by Odin. He raises him, and totally fucks up raising his kids. Thor didnt create the problem.
>Ronan
Had the heroes not got involved its possible Thanos would have had the orb and Ronan would have been a minor threat, not so brave to go assault Xander without a doomsday weapon.
>Dark Elves
Only threat that predates the big bang, this is true
>Thanos
Is he a threat......? If he comes to earth it's actually probably visions fault, his very existence invites challenge.
If there were no heroes there would be no movies.
Yeah, this.
Gotham City would be better off if Batman never showed up.
Is Vision anti-2nd ammendment?
>Is he a threat......? If he comes to earth it's actually probably visions fault, his very existence invites challenge.
If it even closely follows the comics, he wants to destroy the whole universe to impress his waifu.
come watch civil war again fags
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Without superheroes Hydra would still happen, and plot of Winter Soldier wouldn't be foiled, and Hydra would be ruling the world by now.
And you get a Winter Soldier Program!
And you get a Winter Soldier Program!
Winter Soldier Programming for everybody!
I'll be really mad if they try to take my guns away. I'm starting to get really worried!
The only reason Loki becomes a villain is jealousy over Thor.
Actually it's more due to being a Frost Giant bastard who'd never really be loved.
>"Your Aether...it is mine."
>hydra wins
>winter soldier program never ends
>yellowjacket is a good guy since they need yellowjackets to defend against an army of winter soldiers
>world is basically one big fight between tiny lasers and metal-armed russians/nazis
>this is somehow less weird than current MCU
I need concept art for a cinematic white Vision, using full black eyes.
Iron Man (2008 film)
Obadiah Stane/Iron Monger
Wouldn't have his suit if not for Tony but he was going to take over Stark Corp or whatever if Tony died. The argument of Vision means Tony should have died and would have then had Stane to make even more deadly weapons over a great deal of time. In fact, if it weren't for Tony, Stane would have been what Darren Cross/Yellowjacket wanted to do.
The villain here was a villain before Iron Man. He only became noticeable because of Iron Man. if not for Iron Man, Stane would have continued to create evil through weapons.
Here Visions Argument is half true
The Incredible Hulk (film)
Banner was exposed to gamma radiation by accident. No intention was made to become the Hulk. The villain here was created from a lust for Banners power, but also from pre existing mental instability. Emil Blonsky, if there was no Hulk, would not become the Abomination, but still would have been mentally unstable.
Here Visions Argument is true
Iron Man 2
i'll be honest I only kinda remember this one, much less the villain.
I don't even remember Hammer. I assume that he sought Starks tec for money, and I remember kinda that Ivan wanted revenge the same way that the Wonder twins did: Starks and his companies past brought destruction to their lives because of the war economy. But here's the thing, Ivan (I think) made his whips and shit independently from Stark. The first time we see him is working on said whips in a basement.
Vision's Argument is true and half-true/false. Hammer would have just been some corporate suit, making money with Stane but not a super villain, just some asshole. But Ivan? Visions Argument is arguing that super heroes existence creates the counter villains. Starks spoiled existence created Ivan. So with no Iron Man, Ivan would have most likely attacked Stark Corp with his whips and revenge. In fact it can even be argued that the Iron Monger would have been created based on the tec from Ivan after a few goes with him.
Vanko is a wash. Without Tony around to focus his anger he might have just built his micro Arc Reactor and sold it.
Thor (film)
Right off the bat Visions Argument doesn't even hold water. Thor is a God, for all intents and purposes. He's not a super hero, he's a fucking God. His conflict with Loki, Lokis meddling with Earth and so on is on a realm that transcends our mortal comprehension. This argument can't be true for the Gods of Asgard, because their existence isn't confined to lesser beings. They existed in the past and they interacted with earlier man with the ice demons or dark elves or whatever. They exist, and that's that.
Visions Argument is false.
Captain America: The First Avenger
The Red Skull wouldn't have existed if it weren't for the Super Formula. However this argument isn't just so simple. Like Thor, there are factors that make Visions Argument false. There was a WAR going on with a nation that was so evil that fighting them HAD to occur. This created an arms race, and one form was the formula. The Nazis would have gotten the formula or made their own, with or without Captain America.
And there was the matter of the TESSERACT. The cosmic cube that was created in the Big Bang? Visions Argument doesn't hold ANYTHING to that, the Nazis would have used the cube to take over the world.
Visions Argument is false. A big one.
The Avengers (2012 film)
The accumulation of super heroes existences, says Vision and Ross. The villain is Loki, which transcends Visions Argument by being a God. He wants to rule the world because he's a dick like that, but he also wants the Cube for the Purple Phantom. Conflict comes from not the super heros, but the Cube and a Gods lust for power.
Visions Argument is false.
Iron Man 3
HAHAHAHAHA. Killian was doing his evil shit because of Tonys dickish past. He was going to make people into living weapons with or without Iron Man. If Iron Man didn't exist the world would be a more shitty place.
Visions Argument is false.
Thor: The Dark World
Again, Gods. Conflict coming from dark elves and comic gems.
>The argument of Vision means Tony should have died and would have then had Stane to make even more deadly weapons over a great deal of time. In fact, if it weren't for Tony, Stane would have been what Darren Cross/Yellowjacket wanted to do.
Stane wouldn't have been able to match Tony's inventions. He was a businessman and struggled to reverse engineer Stark tech let alone improve upon it. He would've just kept selling what Tony already made.
>It's just the writers trying to handwave the increasingly silly number of world changing events happening in such a short time.
It's not a new concept. Remember Gordon talking to Batman about escalation at the end of Batman Begins?
Captain America: The Winter Soldier
Villain is Hydra and TWS/Bucky. Hydra is competent Nazis that existed with or without Steve. Bucky wouldn't have been TWS though without Cap.
Visions Argument is half true, but more leaning on the false side. Like 90-10 false.
Guardians of the Galaxy
nigga what the fuck are you smoking. Aliens, comics gems, weird tree people. No. Villain Ronan the Accuser existed independently of Star Meme and friends. And he was fucking abducted right after his mom died of cancer, like what the fuck. I know this is separate from his argument but just no.
Avengers: Age of Ultron
Villain is Ultron and wouldn't have existed if Tony didn't go full retard.
Visions argument is true.
Ant Man
Darren Cross / Yellowjacket would have existed, sold his suit and perfected the shrinking formula independantly of Scott. Hanka nd Hope would have tried to stop Cross but failed because of Hanks weakened state and strained relationship with Hope. And Hydra would make the world even worse with the tec and formula.
So we have
Half true (Obadiah Stane/Iron Monger)
True (Emil Blonsky/Abomination)
True (MC Hammer(Although is he even a super villian? He was just a suit that hacked the suits))
Half true/false (Ivan Vanko)
False (Red Skull/Hydra)
False (Avengers Loki/Srull Army)
False (Aldrich Killian)
False(Hydra) 90%
True (TWS) 10%
True (Ultron)
False (Darren Cross/Yellowjacket)
4 true
5 false
2 half mixed
So it seems close, but all Visions Arguments being true are high profile villains that make noise and are noticeable. All the other villains can be mistaken for corporate suits wanting to sell weapons, being an evil organization that blends into society or cosmic forces that don't give two shits about super heroes.
Therefore, in conclusion Vision is full of shit.
>Without superheroes Hydra would still happen
Without Captain America who inspired Peggy Carter and Howard Stark, there would have been no SHIELD for Hydra to infiltrate.
Right, so without Tony, Stance would do more evil than he did when he was the Monger, because the Monger was stopped by Iron Man. Iron Mans existence stopped evil and conflict, a lot of it over a long time.
Also they cancelled out and superhumans went into dormancy for decades.
>implying Hydra needed SHIELD
They infiltrated so many levels of government. SHEILD was just another one of them
>Green Goblin would still be insane
Norman Osborn would be insane and dangerous, but would he be dressing in a Halloween costume and flying around tossing pumpkin bombs?
yes
a more important question would be why not?
Right. HYDRA was active in the Soviet Union too.
>Darren Cross / Yellowjacket would have existed, sold his suit and perfected the shrinking formula independantly of Scott. Hanka nd Hope would have tried to stop Cross but failed because of Hanks weakened state and strained relationship with Hope. And Hydra would make the world even worse with the tec and formula.
But Cross would have been harmless if Pym hadn't been Ant-Man in the first place.
True. I am arguing in favor of the current heroes. Still, thats not an argument against Hank either. He stopped a missile and.. or wait that was his wife... uhh...
What else...
>Thor-Avengers
While it is likely that Loki would want to fuck up Earth to spite Thor, in Avengers he came there for the cube, which was on Earth independant of Thor. So cross Avengers out.
He was being general not taking it on a case by case basis I mean he used Tony as identifying himself as iron man as a starting point specifically. Arms races in human history aren't unique in the slightest either.
Vision's argument is some bullshit because Thanos, either way, was probably gonna get around to earth anyway.
Without Avengers there wouldn't even be an Earth for him to get to.
If there's no Cap, there's no super soldier serum.
No serum no Red Skull
No Red Skull, no Hydra.
The holes in Vision's argument are the whole point. He proposes what seems to be a cause links, but a closer look and factoring in the decision making processes/motives of the individual players makes him calculations fall apart... cuz he doesn't get that stuff cuz he's a robot.
You see this manifest in the way he treats others and the decisions he makes.
"I'll cheer the girl I love up by cooking for her, because that's the logical thing to do for the girl you love... oh shit wait, I can't cook."
"I'll keep the girl I love under lock and key because then nothing bad will happen to her and she can't do anything... oh shit wait, that'll make her fear and resent me."
Decepticons understand human nature better than this
Except he never actually says that.
In the movie, Vision says that "in the past eight years", meaning since Iron Man 1, the number of superheroes and superpowered threats has risen exponentially.
He never said one was a factor on the other, he just said he wanted to put a lid on it to stop it from spiraling out of control
Did you watch the movie?
Schmidt becomes Red Skull long before Steve becomes Cap. And if he hadn't become Cap, Bucky would still be captured and experimented on by Hydra and would still become Winter Soldier.
This whole premise hinges on these characters NOT choosing to be superheroes though. If Steve didn't become Cap, someone else would have. The whole thing is predicated on the super soldier serum existing. The only way there's no Cap is if there's no serum. And if there's no serum, there can't be a Red Skull.
you tell me
>ctrl+f
>nuclear weapons
>0 results
It's like the atomic arms race didn't exists for everyone ITT
The serum makes Red Skull go super nutso.
He might have done the same things without it but it's impossible to say either way really.
Except being a super soldier isn't Skull's defining trait. Without serum he would still be Johan Schmidt, leader of Hydra, and most events would still happen like they did in the movie, but without Captain America to save the day.
>No Thor
>No one stops Malekith.
>Or Thanos does.
But Hydra wasn't a thing until he took the botched serum and became Red Skull. Without his looks and his strength, he's just another Nazi mad scientist. Not even a good one, as the good one defected to the US
No, Erskine tells Steve that Schmidt was head of Hydra already when he first took interest in Erskine's work.
>No Thor
>Loki has no one to compete with for his father's affection
>Turns out a pretty great person all around
>Never gets banished from Asgard
>Never tries enlisting the help of Thanos
>Attack on New York never happens.
>Earth never becomes a Galactic point of interest
>Both Maleketh and Thanos happen, but Earth remains blissfully unaware, and under their respective radars
>Both Maleketh and Thanos happen
Dude... did you actually read The Infinity Gauntlet?