Rebirth Discussion

old thread () autosaged, discuss here

Preview: Spoilers:
ign.com/articles/2016/05/21/dc-universe-rebirth-1-full-spoilers-leak-online
newsarama.com/29406-best-shot-review-dc-rebirth-special-1-with-spoilers-10-10.html

Seeing this cover I come to realize that it looks like MK Armageddon intro, or at least that's the feeling I get

>Finding a way to get Kori's ass on the cover
What madmen.

Posting Preview

so is manhattan going to be a one off thing or is johns actually going to go balls to the walls and being everyone else in?

>no JSA pics

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Honestly it could be either. I think the way the spoilers describe it that it would be fine just leaving it there. We'll see though.

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So why is unmarked spoilers allowed all over Sup Forums?
Thanks for not mentioning any of it in this OP though.

Only Manhattan probably

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End Preview

>Rise of the Seven Seas never

OH DAMN

C U T E
U
T
E

>Johns promised it with Abnett
>was working on something with Fabok and Reis

fucking movies

The way it ends implies that we're going to be seeing a lot more of Watchmen. Hell if that wasn't the biggest cocktease in recent memory.

>Those spoilers

Not sure if want?

This made me so happy. As did the Canary page. Bet that pissed Twitter off.

I love the way this sounds. I kind of hope they won't do much with Manhattan though, and Just use him as a plot device. Anything more and it just looks mean spirited to me.

>return of best OTP

Finally.

The rebirth preview stuff said RotSS is getting set up post Rebirth, so I'm pumped

The narrator should tell them tune into Felicity and Friends Wednesday nights on the CW!

So Dr Manhattan is the hand on the cover?

That was said before Johns got the promotion though. Recent stuff has said he won't be writing comics for the time being. Whether that means no collaborations at all though is to be seen.

Didio and his bullshit no marriages edict btfo

Haven't they been promising RotSS since the end of that big Aquaman arc in Justice League?

>Felicity and Olicity fans who mad got at that Percy tweet
I wanna know how many angry tweets he'll get when GA starts up and he and Dinah start fucking and being all lovey dovey

What a way to leave the comics side of DC


Master

I'm really glad it seems like he left on a strong note. I think the new 52 really did get him down and it affected his output.

Let them cry. I didn't mind Felicity until this season; their relationship has ruined the show and now Dinah's dead, so we can't get Black Canary/Green Arrow.

Johns is a dumb whore that is doing exactly what is expected from a corporate bitch. Quick bucks.


I guess that since Johns has never done anything slightly original and will never ever make a "sacred cow" Graphic novel he feels that is ok to mess around with watchmen.

DC already had MONARCH, new53 Captain Marvel and Captain Allen. 1 of them literally had done this kind of shit before, the other can and the third is literally from Morrison's watchmen. So instead of continue any of those 3 ideas, Johns wanted to make the executives happy, just like he did when they hired him to reboot the universe the last time.

Stuff he set up got fucked over so l imagine he wasn't happy about it.

Manhattan is just as much an allegory for Snyder as it is Watchmen long standing influence.

Nah. If they cop out after this, it'll show that they caved to pressure and don't have the balls to go all the way with the meta statement Rebirth is trying to make.

Just go the full nine yards. Worst that could happen is something forgettable like Before Watchmen, which hardly ruined the source material.

It was Johns

Johns is both Barry and Wally in this scene. He did nothing wrong, it was editorial.

I like how the 'fix' to the nu52 is literally a deus ex machina.

>Stuff he set up got fucked over

And he fucked over pretty much EVERY SINGLE WRITER he has had contact with. From Gaiman to Morrison to Azzarello, from Waid to Loebdell. How is that a defense?

>deus ex machina
explain

People who act like Watchmen is sacred are retarded.

You okay? Wanna talk about it champ?

He is the editorial, he is an executive. And he along with Lee were the ones that formulated the new52 status quo. If he wasnt into it he could had left or just let someone else write the book. He has had a bigger tittle than LEE and DIDIO since he is CCO.

Deus Ex Machina, as it was originally used in the Greek tragedies, involved the gods literally reaching into the story and resolving conflicts. That's what they're doing here with Dr. Manhattan.

And people that want selfcontained shit in the multiverse are casuals.

How can anyone defend Johns after how much he has shat on other writters?

It's not sacred, but it has no business being anything other than what it is, a really good, self-contained story with no connections to anything else.

Why would they get mad in the first place. I doubt any of them would get into comics.

Thank God.

This has always been the most grating part of the New 52 for me.
Nobody seems to know each other, and the universe has felt so small and lame.

>who is Diane Nelson

Johns never would have gotten rid of the JSA on his own volition nor the Rebirth Flash run he had been seeding pieces of for years. Don't be delusional just because you don't like him.

He already turned in his Flashpoint script when they hijacked it with the New52. The thing was supposed to be a minor crossover event like his GL stuff.

Editorial's the one who turned it into this big messy uncoordinated reboot because there was a sales emergency and the financial heads were talking about defaulting into just reprinting, which is basically death for a comic company.

>Ignoring that Bob Harris and WB execs above DC itself were the ones who forced the reboot.

>ohns never would have gotten rid of the JSA on his own
I agree, and what did he do? Do it anyway, he is a corporate bitch. Nothing more.

Isn't there a Titans Solicit that mentions them going against what took time away from the universe?

Why not?

It's not like it's going to ruin the original story.

>Rebirth flash

"barry allen made me the flash"

Harras wasnt above Johns paygrade. Johns was the

>And he along with Lee were the ones that formulated the new52 status quo.
>New 52 ruined his GL run
Yeah nah

>damian got his tooth back

One job

Be didn't have much of a choice. Hell at the time it was rumored he fucked off and got his name slapped on it.

Especially Justice League at first because it reads like a Lee story.

TITANS #2
Written by DAN ABNETT • Art and cover by BRETT BOOTH and NORM RAPMUND • Variant cover by MIKE CHOI
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
“Remember the Titans” part two! As the Titans prepare to do the unthinkable in order to defeat the intergalactic demon that stole time itself from the
DC Universe, enter the Fearsome Five! But are the sinister quintet acting of their own accord…or are greater forces at work?
On sale AUGUST 24 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T

kek

That pretty much tells more about how big of a hypocrite the guy is. Also he has no problem retconing others.

Ok he sucks. What do you want here man?

Harris pushed Marvel into a reboot. He and Nealson wanted it and everyone else got dragged down into it.

Because it doesn't need to. It's like writing a sequel or a prequel to Hamlet. There's no reason for any of that to exist, and shows serious creative bankruptcies on the part of the writers.

>after how much he has shat on other writters?

He never shat on anything I didn't agree deserved to be shat on.

>Be didn't have much of a choice

Actually he had.
He could just leave the book after that. It's called integrity.

No fiction "needs" to exist.

And get a Guggenheim doing it? Johns can take it.

>Especially Justice League at first because it reads like a Lee story.

It doesnt,lt reads like the same crap Darkseid War is. Everything has been shit.

please let us forget

Of course it doesn't. But good fiction would be nice.

>Harras wasnt above Johns paygrade

Why do you keep talking like you know how it worked when there's a mountain of actual evidence that you're wrong?

Geoff didn't want the Nu52, he didn't create the Nu52, stop trying to push this weird meme. What would it even accomplish, you think you're going to bury his e-rep or something?

And do what? He had an exclusivity contract and was DCs money maker. You don't think blackmail, legal threat, and fear of blacklisting doesn't keep people like him in place?

I'm all for meta, but it's not like you can lay all the blame at watchmen' feet. Personally I think death in the family was the start of the edge lord rising.

So is Rebirth another reboot? Or retcon or something in between?

>it has no business being anything other than what it is, a really good, self-contained story with no connections to anything else

That's not what it was and you know it. It may not have been intended to be a huge influence on the entire industry, but it was, and the mistakes need to be addressed.

What other way could you go? Blame darkness and cynicism on Frank Miller instead? No character in DKR has the power to change a universe's continuity. Dr. Manhattan works for that role.

In what way does that make him a hypocrite

Hmm.

"Intergalactic Demon" doesn't sound like Manhatten, but the thought of the Titans trying to do anything to him is hilarious as hell.

I think he's just shitposting for the sake of being contrarian. It's weird though, he uses blatant lies as if Johns never did anything worth legitimately criticizing.

No work has any more right to exist than any other.

There didn't "need" to be a bleak crossover of old Charlton Comics characters.

A retcon. Like GL Rebirth and Flash Rebirth but for the whole DCU.

The stealing time sounds like him but the intergalactic demon sounds more like whatever it was they fought in Titans Hunt (I only skimmed the last issue though so I'm not sure what that was).

Anyway Miller has already shat on TDKR with TDKSA and ASBAR so Johns wouldn't be the first to do it in a book.

>putting a flawed, dated story like Watchmen on the level of Hamlet

The Dark Knight Returns didn't need a sequel either; it got two. Other comics that have been just as influential as Watchmen have sequel stories, some bad, some good, but they never terrible enough to ruin the original.

It isn't a holy grail. It's a comic with imperfections like any other. For all anyone knows, the end result could be great.

If anything people who think the multiverse is limited to 52 or that there are stories that are non canonical within the real multiverse are the true casuals.

It's an excuse to ditch New 52 stuff that didn't work and bring back Post-Crisis stuff that did.
It's the new Zero Hour

>What other way could you go? Blame darkness and cynicism on Frank Miller instead? No character in DKR has the power to change a universe's continuity. Dr. Manhattan works for that role.

Also using Watchmen allows Johns to jab at Zack Snyder for fucking up the movies.

The difference of two cubes? It's an explanation... I'd call it a retcon though.

>Geoff didn't want the Nu52,
True
>he didn't create the Nu52
He did.
He didnt came out with the idea, but he was the guy that enforced it.

>Also using Watchmen allows Johns to jab at Zack Snyder for fucking up the movies.

This is part of why it's brilliant. It's a double diss.

Thanks guys. Been out of the comic loop for awhile and just saw a couple comic panels and didn't want to assume the worst

It's not a reboot... and it never was.

I haven't dared to read the full context behind it, but manhattan seems pretty tame desu. i mean, the anti Monitor and Mr Mind have done the same thing in a much grander scale. If they want to play him as "the biggest threat the dc multiverse has ever faced" then they would need to severely enhace him.

They've attacked Death in the Family, Killing Joke and Year One dozens of times, though. Dark Knight Returns is practically a joke now too. Watchmen is really the only big property of theirs they've yet to really deconstruct/reconstruct because everyone's too afraid to touch it bc of Old Man Moore's dissenting opinions, or they have absolutely no idea what direction they can even take it in.

This was probably the best way they could have approached it IMO.

So:

Jon Samuel Clark was born in Convergence, which features New 52 Superman in his New 52 uni either on Telos or watching with the Oracle, so it takes place approximately, at least, one (maybe even two or three) years post the start of Morrison's Action run, where Clark is sitting around with Jimmy and hasn't yet ordered his S-Shield Tees.

So Pre-Flashpoint Clark knocks up the wife in that year, kid is born and is approximately 5-7 during JL Origin as shown in Lois & Clark #1, which also ages him 5 years to presumably bring the title into "REAL TIME."

So Convergence happened two years before Morrison's Action run? This is just like Dick, Jason and Tim were Robin in the five years before 2011 and Demon Spawn was birthed sometime BEFORE that kinda BS?

If someone thinks they understand this, please respond. And if you're the person who's been posting "you're thinking more about this than DC" -- yes, I suspect that's true in many instance, especially with Berganza as group editor. Still, inquiring minds wanna know.

Is the demarcation of creation the actual script writing or the idea itself? I wouldn't say he created it since it wasn't his idea. Certainly debatable though. Blaming him for some execution seems fine but not for its existence.

I think you guys are reading way too much into it, this issue was probably written before Batman v Superman proved to be a massive dissapointment, there's no way Johns thought about this immediatly after everyone went fanboy rage on the movie for being so bleak and depressing

>but he was the guy that enforced it

That statement doesn't make sense. What the fuck is an enforcer in the context of writing comics? Geoff's OWN books IGNORED that the reboot happened and continued planned plots from pre-Flashpoint, and he didn't at the time have ANY editorial power over other people's books.

You don't understand what a "Chief Creative Officer" does. Johns' desk job at the time Nu52 was done didn't have anything to do with the comics, he was the official creative consultant to the ADAPTATIONS. He gave advice to the TV and movie people, which they could choose to ignore if they wanted the same fucking way Ed Boon and John Tobias were consultants on both Mortal Kombat movies.

And now his job has been upgraded from "Zack Snyder doesn't have to listen to my advice" to "Zack Snyder maybe does have to listen to my advice?"

>Johns to jab at Zack Snyder for fucking up the movies.

The movies he is a PRODUCTOR of.
The movies he was part of as CCO and as a consultant.

The same movies that are using his origin of flash and his origin of cyborg and his Darkseid, the same movie universe where he glady accepted being a writer of the Batman movie.