Captain America, because like seven people died when you saved the world from a bio agent...

>Captain America, because like seven people died when you saved the world from a bio agent, we've decided to outlaw non-government controlled superheroes. How dare you thwart an alien invasion at the cost of 70 something lives.

>Who's going to avenge my son

>Remember that time when you saved the world from an evil robot and got everyone still alive off the floating rock before blowing it up? Fuck you you goddamn murderer.
>Also, that time you blew up three helicarriers under HYDRA control? A piece fell on my doghouse, the dog wasn't in it at the time, but it was still very troubling.

>Infinity War Part 1
>Thanos shows up and fuck's up the Earth
>Vision has the mind gem stolen and Tony can't fight him alone
>Cap just sits in Wakanda waiting for Ross to admit he was fucking retarded
>Cap jobs it anyway and it isn't until the Guardians, Adam Warlock, Doctor Strange, Thor, and Hulk show up that the battle becomes slightly more even

They built the evil robot in the first place.

The accords should've been more about that.

Hey Stevie, your friend killed my parents, my parents are dead what are you going to do about your friend?

Well in all fairness, Tony's robot-baby kind of dropped a city on a small country.

>HYDRA turns a third world country into their mind slaves
>"OMG HOW COULD CAPTAIN AMERICA LET THIS HAPPEN?"
or
>Captain stops it, a small child stubs their toe, and the UN sends the Thunderbolts after him for breaking the accord.

That's a good point, Marvel hasn't really explored AI or their rights.

Is Vision even a person in the eyes of the law?

Well, Tony built the Evil Robot
Captain was the one saying "We aren't blowing this up until we get everyone off, we aren't leaving anyone behind."
Black mother was the one who was mad because Ultron killed her son via one of the many buildings dropped there
Zemo was mad because his family decided to live down stream from a Hydra base.
Somehow The Battle for New York was a black mark against the Avengers even though they literally saved the city from the World Security Council.

>it's a shitposting by purposefully misrepresenting the sokovia accords thread

I think Bicentennial Man was a movie in the MCU too. Vision's got a more compelling argument than Robin Williams did.

Tens of thousands of people drowned because Captain America made Tony make Ultron which caused a city to blow up and fall into water causing a tidal wave.

>"Tell me Captain, do you know where Thor or Banner are right now?"
>Ross goes home after the meeting and scratches another item off of his list of "How can I find The Hulk" ideas

>Captain America made Tony make Ultron
>>>>
Or is this some new copypasta I'm unaware of?

Meanwhile, here is a rough list of things destroyed in the first Avengers:

-Stark blows up ~10 alien ships over the tower. Debris rains down in all directions.
-Stark tricks an alien ship into plowing into the side of a skyscraper.
-Black Widow blows up another ten or so ships, by firing at them with a gatling gun. Explosions are close to the street, and more flaming debris falls.
-After Loki hits their jet, Hawkeye steers it into a crowded street/plaza for the crash landing. A dozen people are seen fleeing. (I'll count this as a grey area.)
-Stark blows up the first space whale with a missile, even though it appears to already be dead. Flaming debris is shown raining down on civilians.
-Cap tells Hulk to smash. Several buildings' facades are destroyed, and two alien ships are blown up over the city.
-Thor shatters all the windows on the Chrysler building.
-Thor blows up ~20 ships and a space whale, over the city. Literal tons of flaming debris goes flying everywhere.
-Hawkeye uses a thermite arrow to blow up two or three more ships. They smash into buildings and cars, exploding.
-Stark tricks three more into smashing into buildings.
-Hulk smashes through a crowded office building, steers a space whale into smashing into another office building. People are showered with broken glass.
-Two or three more ships destroyed by Stark over the city.
-Thor crashes the third space whale into a building full of people.
-Hawkeye blows up Loki's ship. More flaming debris.
-Stark blows up another space whale with about ten high-explosive rockets.
-Nuking the alien mothership causes a fourth space whale to land on top of a building. Another ships flying around presumably also crash, but that's not shown.
-Hulk rips up a building's facade while rescuing Stark, even though Thor was already on the way.

It's something like 60-70 car-sized ships - and four plane-sized space whales - blown up and sent crashing into the streets/occupied buildings.

>Captain America, because you managed resurrect 7 people when you saved the world from a bio agent, we've decided to outlaw non-government controlled superheroes. How dare you thwart an alien invasion and perform miracle acts without permission.

>Right General, next time we'll just ask Loki and the invading aliens if they'd like to take the fight to somewhere not as many people would get hurt.

Fuck you. Ultron's dead. Hundreds of people in Sokovia saved. No more city dropping that had the potential to kill everyone on the planet. Yeah, it's either your son died or everyone else died with him. That scene in Civil War pissed me off. Bitch probably spent as much time picking which picture to guilt-trip Stark with as the time it took the Avengers to stop Ultron in AoU.

It was unbelievably stupid. How could she, as a state department employee, not realize the risks inherent in her son going to a "failed" state like Sokovia? She had to be a plant or something.

>Ross goes home after the meeting and scratches another item off of his list of "How can I find The Hulk" ideas

kek, does Ross still hate the Hulk in the MCU? I'd think it wouldn't be as much since his big issue is he doesn't want his precious daughter getting GREENED.

>How could she, as a state department employee, not foresee an evil robot lifting the city into the sky

She means Tony killed her son one of two says as I see it.

Either she means Tony knocked the building down unnecessarily (we certainly saw unnecessary property damage from Tony in NYC) and killed her son, at which point Tony is directly at fault.

Or she means Tony created Ultron, at which point Tony is directly at fault. I think this is the more likely of the two situations. I don't think her son was on the part that flew up, but like Zemo's family was on the ground and got hit with debris. I don't know if it's wide spread knowledge that Tony created Ultron, but even if it isn't I think it's possible she could know because she worked at the State Department even if it was in HR.

>US government worried about collateral damage
since when

To be fair, there was a non zero chance her son would have been killed by Hydra for shits and giggles.

He's indirectly responsable for the destruction of Sokovia.
When another hero as legitimate reasons to want you dead, you know you fucked it up.

>Either she means Tony knocked the building down unnecessarily
They show in Age of Ultron that Iron Man is certainly worried about collateral damage. The part where he rescues that one family after his AI informs him that the building wasn't deserted, and when he first checks if a partially built tower is empty before he drops the Hulk in it. So I doubt Tony had any direct involvement in her son's death.

>Or she means Tony created Ultron
Fair point. Problem is, even if she did knew, then she must also know that the Ultron project was started because Stark didn't want something like the alien invasion in the first Avengers to happen again. You know, that invasion which could've killed a lot of people while everyone who wasn't an Avenger was busy not trying to shit themselves? And even if he fucked up, he still placed his life on the line trying to stop Ultron. For every thousand lives that the Avengers saved that day, there was probably one fuckhead (like the stupid bitch) who made it their mission to mess with the people who saved their ungrateful asses while justifying their actions with "but someone important to ME died!"

Am I the only one who liked Bill Hurt's performance in the movie? He played the bureaucratic cock-blocking asshole well.

It's fucking insane to let a private army with run around an conduct military strikes with no regard for any laws but their own.

ESPECIALLY when several members from that superteam accidentally blew up an entire fucking country.

Interfering with a government ordered nuclear strike is treason ;^)

>74 people died

The US still gets shit for drone strikes killing like 6 or so civilians while killing guys who kill hundreds of people so I dont see the problem

I can't believe people still argue under the idea that the Accords were about who could run the Avengers more efficiently. That was never what it was about.

It was about accountability and re-assuring the public that the Avengers themselves aren't something they should be nervous about. Having a bunch of superhumans going wherever they please and taking care of whatever they deem a threat, without regard to any laws, is not something the world is comfortable with.

I mean, look at this from an in-universe perspective:
>A supersoldier from the 1940s who can't adapt to modern life and who's best friend is history's most notorious evil assassin
>A weapons dealer who created a robot who destroyed an entire country and almost the entire human race
>A robot created by the robot who tried to exterminate the entire human race
>A guy who turns into an unstoppable, city-destroying monster whenever his heart rate gets too high
>A longtime member of the organization who nearly took over the world by claiming to be protectors
>Same as above, but also engineered to be a remorseless killing machine from birth.
>An alien king who's brother tried to take over the world
>A former HYDRA member with godlike power, who helped a robot nearly wipe out humanity, and knowingly sent a monster to attack a city full of innocent people

TRUST US
WE KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR YOU

The Incredible Hulk ended with him letting Banner go.

I'd honestly say the opposite. The US can bomb hospitals because they suspect a terrorist might be there and no one stops them.

Also I imagine after what happened with Blonsky he's probably no longer allowed to pursue Hulk himself.

You make good points about Tony's concern for collateral damage and his plan of blowing up the city was the best option at the time. So I think you're right on this part that Tony didn't personally destroy a building like we saw in Avengers.

Where I have to disagree with is Tony's reason for creating Ultron making it acceptable enough to her that she'd feel her son shouldn't have died. Just like Tony should have told Wanda he was house arresting her (done with good intentions), he should have told the team about what he was up to with the scepter. That entire movie happens because Tony fucked up. Him risking his life to stop it is the least he could do, especially when he's Iron Man. If Tony was more open, more supervised then Ultron wouldn't have happened.

And I also find you're making a common mistake people that think the Accords, the UN, and Ross are full of shit make when walking about Civil War. As Ross and T'Chaka say and imply, respectively, is no one thinks the Avengers shouldn't have saved New York or that Cap shouldn't have stopped Hydra. People are fucking terrified today with just terrorism. Imagine if there were superheros and villains and Hydras (100x any terrorist group plus running a government sanctioned group in your intelligence agency) and aliens and god aliens and killer AI the good guys make and Hulks.

The Accords aren't about making the world safer, they're about making the world feel safer. Wanda isn't kept on Avengers' property because she's gonna either kill someone or have to defend herself going to the store, it's to make people feel safer by not having her in public. When Ross introduces the Accords he says flat out it's because people are scared and feel helpless.

Of course we bomb hospitals. Terrorists can get broken bones and cancer too, you know!
People like you are the problem. Thinking terrorists are some kind of inhuman monsters when they are human just like you and me.
Also we should probably start going after supermarkets. Terrorists got to eat too.

Something I'm surprised that never got brought up is Cap had another reason to be against the Accords. He just had to deal with HYDRA infiltrating SHIELD. Who knows where else they've infiltrated? One day they could be sent on a mission on HYDRA's orders without even knowing it.

If the terrorist has broken bones and cancer why can't you send in a guy with a glock to cap him while he's resting and avoid all the collateral damage?

>why can't you send in a guy with a glock to cap him while he's resting
Just shoot a man while he's asleep? In a hospital bed?! What kind of heartless monster are you?

Because the argument from TWS applies even MORE to the Avengers who oppose the Accords, who could easily be HYDRA 2.0 as far as the public knows.

>he doesn't want his precious daughter getting GREENED.
One of the reasons I actually really like TIH is because the ending is ultimately a downer. It implies through both direct character action and symbolism that Banner has given up on ever being with Betsy and she also realizes this. I don't think Ross is too worried. They're done. Plus Banner fails his main goal of curing himself, it's great.

I hope we see wave of reevaluation of the movie, like how some people (on Sup Forums and Sup Forums, not theater audiences) started to like TFA after they 'got over' the 1940s styling (it's like a 40s movie, I don't just mean the period piece aspect) and the extreme (even for the MCU) black and white nature of all the conflicts.

TIH is underrated and has a lot of great aspects to it, even if they didn't quite have the tone exactly where it should have been.

>first part treated as a monster movie
perfect way to start/do a hulk movie

>villain is unique in that you probably root for him the first half of the movie
yeah he's out to get the titular character, but you identify with his mission and he's personable until he goes crazy

>world building
having little things like the sonic canons being Stark technology (that War Machine and Iron Man used in Civil War too) to more major things like hulk and blonsky having versions of cap's serum

>story is a misadventure where the main character ends up failing in most of his goals
the stuff I mentioned above is neat, but why it's actually good beyond just being different is that banner failing in his goals is not something he learns from in the climax to beat the villain
it's only after all the conflict is resolved and banner is knee deep in personal failings does he accept the hulk in a way, the down ending contributes to his character growth beyond the simple action climax

I think people that don't like TIH should give it another watch with a more open mind, you might appreciate it with a few years having passed.

>Cap had another reason to be against the Accords.
It goes back to his first movie. Cap's movies are all about disobeying orders
>Becomes a supersoldier and only allowed to do USO shows
>begs to be sent to Europe
>Gets sent to do a USO show and the soldiers hate him
>Overhears about soldiers being held prisoner
>Violates direct orders to go save them
Which is something I kind of forgot about. Captain's entire character is that he didn't like being used as a useless figurehead when he could have been out helping people. It makes complete sense that he refused to sign the accords.

Huh, you're right.

I liked TIH a lot, but I hated Norton as Banner.

Well we know Hydra infiltrated the World Security Console.
But about Hydra not being mentioned, you don't want to make Steve seem paranoid. Even if it makes sense in universe, it might seem out of place to a general audience. Even if it's #allconnected, they want these movies to work on their own and maybe that's too much of a direct reference to TWS.

What Cap does mention is people and their agendas, so I feel like it makes the same point without having to worry about him coming across as overly paranoid.

I wrote that post and I agree. As a person I probably dislike Ruffalo as much as Norton, but Mark does the whole bashful Banner thing much better.

How is Sokovia an entire country the size of a city?

City state.

Lichtenstein look it up much nicer than sokovia but roughly the same size

What did they do as a person that makes you dislike them?

Every fucking movie people think they know what's right and try to shut Cap up only to be proved wrong in the end. Cap is literally always right. He has done absolutely nothing except the right thing since he became a super soldier. You can make any argument you want for the rest of the Avengers, but don't try to shit on Cap. His heart, his morals, and his mind, are all pure.

Running with that line of thought, just put Cap in charge of the Avengers. For real in charge, not "we listen to him but we still don't really listen to anyone" in charge. The only difference between the UN controlling the Avengers and Cap controlling the Avengers is that the UN is a slow bureaucratic mess full of self-serving politicians who couldn't give two shits about anyone or anything that doesn't lead to them getting re-elected. If you want the Avengers to be controlled so the public can feel safe, put them under control of the one person in their whole fucked up world who is actually a good person.

Norton is an egotistical asshole on set and Ruffalo is a hippy with unrealistic expectations for the world off set.
They're both too full of their own points of view, what's different is Norton is inwardly focused while Ruffalo is externally focused but overly romantic.

That misses the entire point. Answering to one of their own, who wants to ignore all laws but his own judgement, is the same as not answering to anyone at all.

>not coordinating with local authorities at all
>firefights happening in public squares while government is left unaware
>fly off in your military equipped jet fighter without any responsibility or oversight

Captain Muh freedums is humongously selfish, which the movie proves time and time again.

...

nigga wut

And when the laws you uphold put others at risk? Do you honestly think that any government organization can be trusted to make the kinds of quick decisions the Avengers have to make to keep the entire world from collapsing in on itself? Ultron happened in a weekend. Lagos happened in hours. Hell, you can even give them a huge amount of time and they'll still fuck it up. They knew about Loki and it still led to an invasion which the government thought it could solve with a nuke. HYDRA WAS the fucking government for 70 years. That's just our own. Throw the rest of the world's governments in there and see what you get. It's not feasible. It'd be best to leave them in the hands of the only person who has proved time and time again to be morally incorruptible and always work for the greater good in the fastest ways.

>It'd be best to leave them in the hands of the only person who has proved time and time again to be morally incorruptible and always work for the greater good in the fastest ways.
That's the argument for trading checks and balances for a dictator.

Normally, yes, but you have to remember who the subject is here.

You can't ask the world to put absolute trust in one person, and only that person. Not only is is extremely dangerous, but it goes against one of Captain America's core ideals - That everyone is created equal, and that no people are just plain "better" than anyone else. It'd be much closer to 616 Zemo's beliefs.

Yeah, your argument makes sense to us, but you got it isn't us you have to convince. It would be the citizen of the Marvel Universe. As far as they see, it's some extra strong and fast guy, but still a man. A man can't be incorruptible. Think about if someone had come in with the same idea. No doubt he would have haters, even if he had great ideas. The same thing. It isn't that you are wrong, because you aren't. It is that you are thinking of it as a person just watching a movie, commenting on the people from a third party point of view, rather than being a person living in that world having the knowledge available to them at the time.

Fuck off Ross, go back to hunting the Hulk

>oh we can't do that, the United Nations might get mad

>Scarlet Witch
>former HYDRA member

>Supervillain blows up a city
>Like literally the whole city
>Nobody knows what happened
>Nobody except the Avengers who actually saw it
>They tell the gubmint
>"Yeah but we're going to wait for some actual information to come in. You super powered freaks won't trick us that easily."
>Two weeks pass.
>Cities all over the world blowing up.
>Nobody knows what's going on until someone matching the exact description the Avengers gave appears on TV and demands to be king of the world.
>The UN decides to get together to decide what to do.
>Next month, they get together.
>Nobody can decide what to do.
>"Alright, we'll try next week."
>Cities still blowing up.
>Avengers say they've been doing research and have found a pattern to the villain's attacks and that they can stop him.
>"Did the UN approve this research? No? 1 week jail all of you."
>Next month.
>UN decides to send in the Avengers.
>Oh wait, the world already ended.
>Too bad.
Yeah, stellar idea.

And now, here's a rough list of things saved in the first Avengers:

>Manhattan didn't get nuked
>the rest of the planet
>every single person saved from a life of slavery or worse

>"Tell me, Captain, do you know where Thor and Banner are right now? 'Cause you can bet if I misplaced a couple of 30 megaton warheads, there'd be consequences."
>Pic related literally misplaces a warhead not long after
Nice pottery Marvel

Well they wanted him to sign the Accords too so I guess he's registered somewhere and has his own signature somewhow.

>nathan petrelli went on to have a successful military career, despite not joining up until after he had become senator
MCU is weird

lel

>Dean Pelton left Greendale and became the principal of MIT
Yeah it's weird alright.

...

I hated her because like everyone it was suddenly "oh there were. 50 other ways to handle that situation. Grieving parents can be unreasonable but damn. Worse of all she said this AFTER he both gave all those kids funding because they are the future and should be encouraged and after he told her he is just trying to redeem himself I'm the world proving many things have gotten to him. After he shows he isn't a selfish dick who only thinks of himself she precedes to railroad him as off he were still Iron Man 1 & 2 Stark.


At the end of the day she still isn't worse than the comic version though. That woman came up to him, spit in his face, then went " you were a hero to him" as if Tony fucking up was what got her kid killed and not someone untrained heroes going after a big fish.

Technically, Hydra's experimental AI algorithm created with the help of the staff built the evil robot by freak accident; Stark just let it interface with his tech, making it grimdark JARVIS+Stark quirks instead of grimdark HYDRAbot.

This is a weird continuity where the Ultron Sentinels were actually HYDRA robots commandeered by Ultron. Ultron is more or less a HYDRA AI that Stark tried to appropriate for his purposes, but underestimated.

>Somehow The Battle for New York was a black mark against the Avengers even though they literally saved the city from the World Security Council.
They have no evidence of the nuke, thus it can't be brought up in their defense.

>only normal people should respect the law

I see, the Avengers are part of the 1%

Ultron has no Hydra programming. He's just JARVIS plus the Mind Stone scan.

Tony was a wreck but he should have actually shot that back at her. If the Avengers didn't exist who does she think would have dealt with the problems of the world? Not Ultron obviously, but the other problems that SHIELD inadvertently was allowing through their HYDRA plants.

Does she think her son wouldn't be a slave or just straight up lynched if HYDRA got to work? I know she's grieving and so irrationally looking for someone to blame, but first and foremost her son was an idiot. Who the fuck goes to Sokovia it was infested with HYDRA operations, secondly in her line of work she should know nothing goes off without any problems, thirdly she just saw Tony give away his money to help kids who he owes nothing so despite his joking remark about guilt and generosity his character is already one inclined towards trying to assist those who are in unfavorable situations.

He's not perfect, I think he is and was a jerk in many situations including CW but he's not fucking Loki or whoever.
Fuck 'er.

>Fuck you. Ultron's dead.
You mean that AI that Tony created because he wanted to police the world? Everything that happened was because of Tony, so yeah he's responsible for his death along with the deaths of everyone ultron came into contact with and killed. Bitch was right and you know it faggot.

If terrorists hide among innocent people, who are the real cowards?

Oh yes they are certainly unprotected, just fly down a chopper and send a marine squad, I'm sure the american public will be okay with multiple dead marines.

What power does a piece of paper give over the world's mightiest beings?
None.

People aren't made equal, without superpowers you can't beat superpowers head-on.
That means ultimately the accords were pointless, if the Avengers wanted to go and save the world and the UN said no, they'd just go and do it.
They're just an excuse to be able to brand the Avengers criminals when suitable, a form of both providing and cutting off public support, on demand.

I guess you should just send cops to arrest the supervillains or send a fine to the psychopaths who go on murder sprees to conquer the world.

And it's not like the big political organizations of the world cannot be secretely manipulated by Nazis or something. So it's perfectly fine for the Avengers to be fully regulated by their terms.

UN bueracrats an diplomats are not concerned with elections, nor are the vast majority of members in the UN. Very few countries in the world actually hold real elections (real as in multiple parties or multiple candidates from disparate parties). Most of the countries in the world are directly controlled by a single person or single family and they aren't going to lose their position and power due to an ELECTION. Assassination or open rebellion, yes, but not an election.

The UN is mostly interested in how to separate the gullible rich from their money, and how to pocket enough money to buy themselves another couple of Roll Royces or Gulfstreams while their cousin in charge drops another few billion into their private bank accounts.

If you put superheroes under their control, they'd use them to wipe out all rebels in the world, all money from the rich "stupid" countries (the Western ones), and send them on quests to find the fountain of youths for the world's leadership and their pet sex toys and favored sycophant followers.

>every single person saved from a life of slavery or worse
For most of the people on Earth, that's either a lateral transfer or a step up depending on if they stay where they are and just have different masters, or get moved up with tech and body improvements.

They specifically state that HYDRA was using the Staff to experiment with Artificial intelligence for their sentinels, and that what became of Ultron was a side effect.

A successful psychopath that goes on a large murdering spree usually ends up in charge of his country, and then his children and relatives are sent to the UN for easy living and to make sure their little shit hole gets a big ole slice of the Western world's money dropped into the UN.

>And it's not like the big political organizations of the world cannot be secretely manipulated by Nazis or something.
That's kind of the whole point of the movie.

There is no neo-nazi cabal; the countries of the world don't want the Avengers doing whatever the fuck they want in their land without their consent.

Yes, but Stark never says he uses anything Hydra in his experiments. He just mentions the scepter and given how shitty Hydra is, I don't doubt he'd prefer to use his own programs from scratch.

Israel does the same.

>Wow I've got a lot of suits I should probably blow them all up even though they literally just saved the day, cos I'm a strong independant guy in a suit who dont need no suit
>Alright new Avengers movie coming up that was a really cool fireworks display but I should make another set

It's a comic book world. The world governments are of course being run by secret cabals. Half of those cabals will be Nazis from space that are worms or bugs that crawl into people's heads and control them.

So why would any super hero ever trust large organizations of governments? Only the stupidest among them would ever do so.

You know Tony actually addressed this in CW

>The entirety of Civil War was Ross trying to either find Hulk or bring him out of hiding so he could reveal that he's Red Hulk and take him down
Would not be mad

Tony addressed this in Civil War.

It's partially why Pepper left him.

I always thought it was alright. What I don't really understand is why General Ross would go on and on about the Avengers causing collateral damage when he himself let two rage filled monsters duke it out in Harlem.

All Tony and Bruce did was try to design a more advanced version of Jarvis based on their analysis of the mind stone.

They let the system run test on their designs automatically and then went to a party. Unbeknownst to them, the algorithm achieved a stable structure, started studying, and decided on its own to KILL KILL KILL

Tony Stark and Bruce Banner made a brain. That brain looked at the world and said, "Well this is a total shit show, I should just start over."

And proceeded to find avenues to do just that.

The suits in Iron Man 3 represented Tony distracting himself from his PTSD. He dropped a nuke into outer space and came back broken. He then proceeded to spend every ounce of time he could spare slapdashing a bunch of Iron Man armors together so that he didn't have to think about how he almost died alone in space. The destruction of those mass produced suits represented his dealing with that and acceptance of his new stance on life. Especially where he finally risk getting the shrapnel out of his chest. Because it wasn't a series of accidents that make him Iron Man, it's his decision to embrace what he can do for the world that does.

which you'd get if you, y'know, paid attention.

>all those times you saved the world?
>well fuck you, there were some collateral
>now either you sign this paper that says we own you or we fuck ourselves in the ass the next time something really bad happens because your team cant operate due to the fact that we disbanded it
I really cant see what these retards bargaining chips were. It felt like cap had all of them