Why do western cartoons look like garbage now compared to the 90s-00s?

Why do western cartoons look like garbage now compared to the 90s-00s?

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sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/22678
sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/16157/
sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/20710/
sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/22293/
webneel.com/image/misc/2-tradional-animation-disney.gif
sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/5353
sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/5352
youtube.com/watch?v=rR1cMPnMcaY
sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/22633/animated-character_acting-hair-hyouka-ryouhei_muta
youtube.com/watch?v=7Fxls1XrcJc
youtube.com/watch?v=iZEZLnqKGWg
youtube.com/watch?v=0YrSpaaDOm0
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

Because the industry focuses on making animation cheaper, not better.

Man X-men was the tighest kid when I was a kid

You used to be able to make a profit based on just airing the show and selling toys. Now barely anyone watches TV through a provider and toys don't sell to kids. They can't afford well-animated shows safely, and they don't want to take risks considering that it's easier to play to rabid fanbases that love shows that cost $5 to animate because the studio uses a bootleg version of Flash off a Window Vista computer.

Not animated by the japs anymore.

Theyre not

Shows like AT and SU are animated by hand in Korea (someone correct me if I'm wrong). MLP is actually Flash, but even its animation is partially done in the Philippines. And regardless of the lol-tier quality of modern shows, they still cost an arm and a leg per episode.

>Western
because most of 90's cartoons wasnt even made by americans
plus CalArts

Why don't we just annex Japan and make them do our cartoons as well?

rewatching the old X-Men and Spider-Man cartoons there is a lot of wonky and cheap animation that I didn't even notice as a kid but is distracting as an adult

>People think anime has good animation

The fuck?

Nostalgia

>People think movies have good filmography

Stop being a deliberately dense fuck, it's a medium. And there are always people who will push any media to their boundaries.

>invading a sovereign nation for anime
Finally, America is getting it's priorities straight.

X-Men was a great series but when talking about great animation it's not exactly what I'd pick. The advances that have happened since then are amazing when applied properly rather than just cheaping out.

No. Shitty anime is shit animation. Horrible frame rates galore. That is the definition of bad animation.

A still frame with a mouth flap isn't good animation

Anime occasionally has good animation. The most prominent recent example being a couple fights in OPM. Most of it is really bad though.

But it does fampai, at least anime with high enough budget.

>High budget

Well yeah that is my point.

Framerate does not determine animation quality. I could for example make 60 fps animation, and it would look like complete shit.

>A still frame with a mouth flap isn't good animation
This is a myth, and not what anime is actually like.

The reality is that anime has the best hand-drawn animation you'll find anywhere. If that still isn't good enough then I guess hand-drawn animation just isn't for you.

Compared to western cartoons anime has more and better animation, though. Even peak Disney and WB wasn't as good, it just had unlimited budget to animate everything in 1s so it could looks smooth. Anime has used far more complex 2D animation techniques even with a fraction of the budget the west has had in their Golden Era.

>Myth

Make a fucking flip book. The more pages with more detail of move to move from page to page of said object makes it more life like. That is animation.

You also don't explain what good animation is. Just say that Muh superior island nation is better!

Anime does NOT have good animation for their generic TV shows. Family guy has better animation for christ's sake. They at least animate their mouths

Weeb

...

>shitty anime has shit animation
>therefore anime isn't good animation

>twilight is bad writing
>therefore novels aren't good writing

>meet the spartans has bad cinematography
>therefore movies don't have good cinematography

>my father's burnt-as-fuck steaks aren't fine dining
>therefore bbq food isn't good

Yeah you're a complete chucklefuck.

Just accept the truth.

>Keyframe is good animation
Nigga what?

You still don't tell me WHY it has better animation

>Even peak Disney and WB wasn't as good
Eh western cartoons are professionally animated for an entire movie/episode

Meanwhile anime have 'sakuga' moments for like 5-15 seconds

In like 3 out of 12 episodes pers season

You keep cherry picking sakuga scenes from action anime

Again, framerate does not determine animation quality. Again, I could make 60 fps animation and it would look like shit. You need to be good at drawing and portraying movement to make good animation.

>You also don't explain what good animation is.
Quality of the character design, realism of movement, complexity of movement, camera work, lighting and shading.

>Anime does NOT have good animation for their generic TV shows. Family guy has better animation for christ's sake. They at least animate their mouths
And here we once again see the absolutely mind-boggling, nonsensical obsession with mouth movements that many fans of Western animation have.

Family Guy is better than this because the mouths are articulated:
sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/22678
sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/16157/
sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/20710/
sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/22293/

Not what I said dipshit. I said it's bad animation and therefore outsourcing western cartoons to Japan is redundant
>Shitty CGI for the past part
>Only mid body and up shots while running
>He thinks this is a good example

If you honestly believe this then you don't know shit about animation.

Fluid animation is objectively better. It's like saying that a slideshow of renaissance paintings has good animation because the paintings are good. Animation is motion, and stiffer motion is objectively inferior to fluid motion.

Because the creators literally devote their lives to their shit and study it intensely to learn how to create more fluid animation and develop new techniques while refining older ones through the studio apprenticeships they tend to go through

Literally nobody in the world cares more about their animation quality than obsessed weeb nips who are allowed the leeway to chase their passions. The sakuga and animation discussions I've seen in interviews with creators, at cons, on blogs and forums are all literally leaps and bounds ahead of the vast majority of discussion I've seen regarding western animation.

When allowed to do so by budget or time constraints, they actually give the most shits of all and it shows.

Is this a joke? X-men was animated like shit. That show sucks. It and the old Spider-Man don't hold up like Batman.

Hell, even low budget shit can look decent from time to time.

>Quality of the character design, realism of movement, complexity of movement, camera work, lighting and shading.

Only 2 of those are movement. Camera work, lighting and character design have nothing to do with how fluid the actual movement is.

OPM > everything else

>You need to be good at drawing

Holy fucking shit you do realize that detail does NOT equal fucking animation right?

>Quality of the character design
See previous statement

A pretty design is by DEFINITION not animation. Animation is SOLEY the illusion of movement.

>Wanting characters to have realistic mouth movements is nonsensical
>He defends mouth flaps while saying animation is good because of detail

Holy shit stop posting

>Even peak Disney and WB wasn't as good
Dude, I appreciate Japanese animation but to dismiss the best of western animation on the grounds of merely having "unlimited budget" is extremely shallow. There are many great western animators out there and have done things that can rival whatever the likes of Inoue or Okiura have put out. The difference is that they have different approaches to their work.

Generalising an entire industry as shit due to their shittiest examples is the most basic of baits, user.

By your stupid logic of more individual frames = better animation, even a stick figure wobbling its hands at 60 frames per second has better animation than something like this.

>Eh western cartoons are professionally animated for an entire movie/episode

Disney movies perhaps, but not TV regular shows, not even close.

And that was only possible thanks to the high budgets they worked with. There's little to no complexity in the animation, the shot composition and simple 1 point perspective and static frames they often used shows the lack of actual skill they had.

Again, you're confusing animation for still frames. It's okay if you like stiffer animation in exchange for more detailed frames, but saying that stiffer animation is better because the individual frames are prettier is objectively wrong. If you got a job at disney as an animator and talked about how fluidity in animation doesn't matter everyone would laugh at you for not knowing shit about animation and you'd be fired for being a retarded faggot.

It's not "my logic" it's the fucking definition of animation

More frames does mean more fluidity just like 4K is more realistic than fucking 480p

That is another shit example. You need to take an animation class

>One point perspective and static frames

Yes while the characters actually move properly without clunky bullshit

I'm not saying fluidity doesn't matter. Japan could make anime in 1s if they had a fraction of the budget Disney had. What I'm saying is that amount of individual frames != skill and complexity of animation. I find something like this more impressive than this for example webneel.com/image/misc/2-tradional-animation-disney.gif

>Keyframe is good animation
This is keyframe animation:
sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/5353

This is finished animation:
sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/5352

>Meanwhile anime have 'sakuga' moments for like 5-15 seconds. In like 3 out of 12 episodes pers season
Exaggeration, and "sakuga" just means animation that someone considers to be particularly good. An absence of "sakuga" animation doesn't mean the absence of animation.

I do know shit about animation and that's exactly why I'm telling you that framerate does not equal quality. Once again: I could make 60 fps animation, and it would look like shit since I can't draw let alone animate. But according to you it would be better than anything that's ever been produced in either Japan or the West.

There is nothing difficult at all about making a lot of drawings, it just takes time. Anyone can do it. But not everyone can draw well and portray complex movements realistically (and do it fast enough to meet deadlines). That takes skill.

Your character design determines what you are animating. The more complex it is, the more difficult and time-consuming it is to make the drawings and produce good animation. For example:
sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/16157/

Her outfit consists of four separately moving parts and her bag which also has a part attached to it. Her clothes are also physically separate from her body, not just painted on. All of this has to be accounted for in the animation, and it all has to be shaded too. If they had instead made something like Finn from AT, it would have been completely different.

"Shooting" a scene from the side (very often done in American animation) is a lot easier than having the camera spin around the character, swoop through the scene or be at an odd angle like close to the ground and looking up. Not everyone can animate like that. It takes skill.

Animation is a series of drawings. Even Disney animation, as fluid as it looks, is just a series of drawings made one by one.

>Wanting characters to have realistic mouth movements is nonsensical
Holding it up as this all-important feature that determines whether something is good animation or not is indeed nonsensical.

>He defends mouth flaps while saying animation is good because of detail
It's good because of a lot of things.

Did this ever get picked up for another season or was it a one time thing?

sadly only a one time thing which is odd given that it wasn't simply called "Marvel Disk Wars" but "Marvel Disk Wars: The Avengers", like they actually expected that a second series would follow.

Oh great a nostalgiafag fanwank thread turned into weeb fanwank thread

>UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU I'M COMPLETELY FUCKING RETARDED HURRRR DURRRR

Even high budgeted anime is cheaper than western animation.

Why do you insist that animation has anything to do with how detailed a frame is? You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Fluid movement is better animation than stiffer movement. I bet you think OPM has better animation than Flesicher Superman.

> the more difficult and time-consuming it is

Something being more difficult to do does not automatically make it better.

What about the non-shit anime?

Daily reminder each episode of Family Guy is 2 million dollars.

Korra in comparison was 1 million dollars an episode and still overpriced.

Because now they outsource them to Canada, instead of Korea.

>. Even peak Disney
Now you fucked up.

The more detail there is, the more time it takes to draw and the more difficult it is to keep everything straight. Like in that example, her outfit is physically separate from her body and has four separate moving parts, and she has a bag which has a strap attached to it (and then there's her hair). The animator had to account for and draw all of that. If he had instead animated Finn, it would have been way easier and faster.

youtube.com/watch?v=rR1cMPnMcaY

^ Here, we have very detailed characters who are engaged in very complicated swordfighting while the camera is doing all sorts of complicated things and changing angles all the time. If the characters were basic shapes and the scene was shot from the side, it would be inferior animation even if it was 24 or 30 or 60 fps. It would take much less skill to create and it would look worse.

Another thing that an animator has to account for in a scene like that is keeping everything consistent from shot to shot and maintaining continuity.

I'm guessing you consider this the best piece of animation ever made since it's done in 60 frames per second. Good to know I don't have to take you seriously anymore.

Disney's animation was not as advanced as anime. It was mainly just very, very smooth.

Nice strawman

The argument was that framerate = animation quality.

Took my breath away.

>the tightest kid
Why don't you have a seat, right over there?

>Daily reminder each episode of Family Guy is 2 million dollars.
Wait, what? Whaaaaaaaaat?

Watch Akira and then kiss my fucking ass.

>Only 2 of those are movement. Camera work, lighting and character design have nothing to do with how fluid the actual movement is.
Actually, character design is incredibly important for animation. A poorly designed character can be hard to animated, require more time, or not be real when moving in a faux 3d space.

>ITT weebs act like a minute of fluid, complex animation makes up for 10 episodes of scrolling static images and flapping mouths

70% is probably VA

Who gives a shit about cartoons, western or otherwise?
Are you all virgins?

>What is sakuga?
>What is Akira?

Are you shitposting?

Because japanese animators work under almost slavery conditions.

Yet Japan sometimes outsource animations to China and South Korea, which pay even less to their animators.

>20 cartoons p/season in the US
vs.
>200+ p/season in Japan

It's a huge difference, but overall, at least animators can get work over there. That being said it's not as if American tv animation is perfect here. There are still a lot of mistakes and overall directorial choices that are really just boring or lacking inspiration even for the small budget that they have.

It's the equivalent of criticizing the CG animation scenes in Game of Thrones to a CG movie from Disney/Pixar. Both have very, very different budgets. More money always pumps up the quality of anything.

>it's a "Sup Forums tries to talk about anime" episode

You keep cherry picking non-sakuga scenes.

There's more to creating a tv animation than just movement. There's a lot to consider. You are making a tv show and there are things to be expected. Camera work, lighting, and character design are big factors into it. Budget or lack there of will play a big factor into it, but there are ways to get around it. You just have to be really creative about it.

Wasn't there some Disney animator that said that Akira is the pinnacle of animation? As much as I appreciate Disney I haven't seen one movie from them yet that even looks anything like Akira.

Part of me kinda wishes you had posted something like this instead: sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/22633/animated-character_acting-hair-hyouka-ryouhei_muta

Since it's kinda in the same vein?

I personally think TV Nip animation is a bit stiff compared to western animation, but it can look really good with a bigger budget when it's like a movie or something.
Nip animation made in the early 2000's to maybe around 06-07 always bugged me because of how saturated the color was. That and we've never gotten more than 2 layers of colored shading since they started doing digital.

That all said and done, I'm kind of sad that stuff like Serial Experiments Lain, Ghost in the Shell, Akira, and Neon Genesis Evangelion are more or less some of my favorite examples of how animation can be for mature audiences and how Western "adult animation" rarely explores that area

cartoons have more animation and production value nowadays along with writers who really want to work on the show. particularly weird to include the 00's, it's not like we were better off with FOP's complete lack of character animation.

western animation doesn't try to focus on boring real life actions like people running so it's not a fair comparison.

That is what was being argued the entire time though. The more frames = better more fluid animation. Posting an example of what you were talking about isn't strawmanning.

>I personally think TV Nip animation is a bit stiff compared to western animation

>Studio Trigger
>stiff animation

Ok.

I was thinking of Madhouse in particular actually

Madhouse looks really cool sometimes with their lighting, but they're often stiffer than a corpse and go off model here and there

Why are we comparing about budget sizes anyway? Theyre not always used in the same way.

I always thought anime sometimes goes off model because they still use hand drawn animation whereas western cartoons mostly use puppeteering software and have assets saved to reuse like the head shape or limbs, etc.

It's kind of happening. More and more popular anime studios are getting work on western shows again. But it's still costly so it's only done for big shows.

Big shows

Big... os

BIG O

WHERE IS MY SEASON 3 CARTOON NETWORK YOU COWARDLY FUCKS

Are there literally any modern cartoons animated in America?

Behold

youtube.com/watch?v=7Fxls1XrcJc

I don't care as much as animation as I care about content.

I remember the aftenoons watching TV, G.I Joe, Transformers, Galaxy Rangers, Thundercats, Bionic six, Motherfucking COPS, there was also the Count Duckula sort of thing but most of it was badass action cartoons with cool adventures.

Now everything I see on cartoon channels are wacky characters having wacky lives.

I miss so much action cartoons. And when we have one like Beware the Bat or Young Justice league they get shit treatment.

I want supersquads, cyborg mutant ninjas and space cops back.

>Galaxy Rangers
That show was a weird kind of special where one episode might have god tier writing but then the next would be a huge box of disappointing stupid.

I still love it. One Million Emotions is one of the best episodes of any action cartoon ever.

youtube.com/watch?v=iZEZLnqKGWg

That's the one with the doll, right?

25+ years and I still remember that episode together with the one Gooseman fighting his rival "totally not wolverine"

>Police officers could never be the heroes in an American children's cartoon now.
Kinda sad.

Those were both on the same VHS tape.
But, yes, that was the one with the doll. Such a good fucking episode.

I went back and re-watched the series a year or so ago and was disappointed most of it wasn't as good as the few episodes I remember. I always liked the first Scarecrow episode too.

Neither soldiers

youtube.com/watch?v=0YrSpaaDOm0

Count the times it says "Freedom"

MLP - for flash, for a little girl's show, the animation is actually pretty good.

I dunno. Most kids of a decent view of soldiers. I guess getting modern creatives to glorify fighting International terrorist might be a bit hard, but it's more doable then police.

Watch kids play, especially colored children: police are the bad guys to them.

>All the green quotes.

All the green quotes.

>Not full flashy fight

Anime animation it's getting better!