Geoff Johns vs Alan Moore

>Geoff Johns blames Alan Moore for DC's current state and that he's the reason for the gritty darkness and lack of legacies
Why? If anything, Geoff Johns has done more harm to DC than Alan Moore has. Alan Moore didn't write the worst Justice League run. Alan Moore didn't write Lex Luthor squishing Atomica under his boot. Alan Moore didn't write Superman kill an entire world. Alan Moore didn't turn Billy Batson into a edgy kid that threatens people. Alan Moore didn't shit on Kyle and Wally's for Hal and Barry. Alan Moore didn't have Superman kill Dr Light. Alan Moore didn't create Bug Parallax. Alan Moore didn't create the shitty rainbow corps. Alan Moore didn't have Wonder Woman cut people's arms off. Alan Moore didn't have Captain Cold shatter Johnny Quick's legs. Alan Moore didn't write terrible events like Trinity of Sin and Darkseid War. Alan Moore didn't ruin Darkseid, the Anti-Monitor, and Fourth World. Alan Moore didn't create the worst OCs, Pandora and Grail. And yet Alan Moore gets blamed for Johns's mess and in turn Geoff Johns rapes Moore's poor baby (you think they would have learned after Before Watchmen) for no reason other than to leave his mark on DC before he leaves to do coke with Zack Snyder in Hollywood.

For someone that claims to want "Fun" and "Hope" to DC (as opposed to Moore's "Grimness") Geoff sure loves to roll around in gritty grimdarkness (the stuff he claims to hate).

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He's not blaming Moore. He's blaming the people who took the wrong messages from Watchmen. Why does everything have to be about Moore to some people? Grow up.

>the worst Justice League run.
It can be a lot worse that that user. Ever read Cry for Justice

>Geoff Johns blames Alan Moore for DC's current state and that he's the reason for the gritty darkness and lack of legacies

source?

The bait would be more effective with some bullet points and proper spacing.

this, to be quite honest, familia

>He's blaming the people who took the wrong messages from Watchmen.
You mean like Geoff Johns?
Because I don't think Alan Moore wanted him to turn Billy Batson into a edgy kid. Or have Lex Luthor squish women. Or have Ronnie Raymond kill Gehenna. Or have Superman blow up a world.

Maybe Geoff Johns should take his own advice.

Alan Moore wrote a whole lot of rape.

Watchmen ruined DC comics for the last 3 decades though
so in a way Moore is at fault and he realizes he ruined comics in some way.

Johns is just pointing out the illness and where it began
He is an edgy writer too but he was just following the trend Moore created

>Why? If anything, Geoff Johns has done more harm to DC than Alan Moore has. Alan Moore didn't write the worst Justice League run
Yeah I stopped reading there.

SAGE

And Geoff Johns wrote a whole lot of crap. Which can be argued that's worse.

Plus Johns is now raping Moore's baby, so it's not like he's against rape.

>the worst Justice League run

It's nowhere near that bad, its actually kinda fun. Yea Trinity of Sin was WTF and Darkseid War was a bit of a letdown but he's actually done a good job.

If Johns cared so much about the "illness" infecting DC comics, he would have tried to fix it (like Mark Waid). But he doesn't care because he's just an edgy hack that loves killing D-listers and stabbing people from behind and cutting arms off.
He's just using Alan Moore as a scapegoat to his own shitty writing.

Fuck Geoff Johns, I hope he dies in a plane crash like his sister.

SUPERBOY PRIME
BARRY'S MOM

Yeah, I wish that were true, but Johns is too petty for that.

Yes, Watchmen is responsible for Superboy turning into a psychopath murder, right?

The issue with comics is shitty writing, not the tone of the story. You can have both gritty and good writing, like Watchmen, and also have campy and shit writing.

Plus, I think TDKR did more for the pessimist tone of modern comics than Alan Moore with watchmen.

This is a lame excuse. The tone of the story is by no means responsible for the shit we have now. And new 52 isnt gritty anyways other than Batman and friends.

OP?

Google "alan moore twilight" & then tell me Moore didn't want to do bad things to the DCU.

I was gonna say "don't cut yourself with that edge", but I'm actually hoping you take a few fingers off.

Nope, writing an talent have nothing to do with it.

The new 52 was bad because Alan Moore use his ancient dark powers to make it terrible. Geoof Johns said so.

Damn you, Alan Moore! How dare you force DC to suck!!!

OH MY GOD! What if Alan Moore is also resposible for Man of Steel?!!'

....Are you fucking retardly OP? Also, Moore and Johns have done no damage to DC if anything they save it.

>Fuck Geoff Johns, I hope he dies in a plane crash like his sister.
You're such a piece of shit. Go outside and get some fresh air. Speak to a human being. Try your best not to shoot up a school while you do it. Ameritard.

>its actually kinda fun
It really isn't. It's terrible and boring. I would say it's something from the 90s but Morrison's JLa was more fun.

Oh I remember this pasta. You stepped up your game OP.

Thid

>billy batson
>edgy
did you even read past the first parts of curse of shazam? it's far from it. He actually chose to develop billy instead of making him perfect from the start

Based Cereal Lord

>heroes can't be nice friends
>they have to be flawed jerks
yeah, because that worked so well for Man of Steel

why are we bringing movies into this? fuck off back to your containment board

I'll be sure to blame Alan Moore when I do. Because apparently you don't have to take responsibility, just blame Alan Moore
>No your honor. I did not stomp that baby. Alan Moore's dark comics mind controlled me to stomp on that baby. It's his fault for all the child abuse in the world.

But Curse of Shazam is a Screenplay, Its a shallow attemp by johns to get a movie made

not really? He definitely meant to do an ongoing with Frank but he clearly got blindsided by job alterations and one not
There was a mandate from higher ups saying he could only write one book at a time, so he chose to stay on justice league, and now that he's got a new job he can't even write books anymore.

>Because I don't think Alan Moore wanted him to turn Billy Batson into a edgy kid.
No, he wanted to kill him in a kinky sex session gone horribly awry.

>There was a mandate from higher ups

kek


the guy BLOCKED any writter that tried to get close to the character.

Guess you haven't heard of the proposed Twilight of Superheroes

Wait, do you really think that what Johns is doing with Rebirth is just directly blaming Moore for everything? If so you may have legitimate autism

yeah because he was trying to save it for himself if he ever got the chance, which never came.

and that's not entirely true. shazam appeared in the cyborg solo by david walker

it has one of Moore's creations fuck DC universe with his blue cock, what else could he mean by it?

>organizing old comic books
>mfw get to big chunk of main run Blackest Night issues

Comic books taking all of the wrong lessons from Watchmen and DKR has been a known truism for years, but because now Geoff Johns is saying it that makes him petty and personally blaming Moore for some fucking reason?

Blackest Night is what got me reading DC comics because it looked cool. looking back its not great, but its a fun/entertaining read

It makes him a hypocrite. Geoff has been a making the cancer worse over the years.

Now he wants to pretend he suddenly cares before he leaves for Hollywood so he can look like a Martyr for Fun.

He's a douche.

Stop using facts.
Johnsfags don't read comics, they only watch tv shows while they scream about the JSA because that's what "comicbook experts" are supposed to do

did you jerk off to the part where Ronnie turned Gehenna into salt

They are basically telling that their comics since Watchmen have been shit.

So if you grew up reading DC comics in the late 80s, 90s and 00s you are the problem. Also apparently those storie were all shitty edgy stuff that you shouldn't have liked to begin with.
What a great way to treat your fans.

No. The rule is no writer was allowed to pitch Shazam or Plastic Man related stuff. We know this from John Layman (but also Cornell's experience since he had a shazam related project greenlighted around the time of FP).

Holy shit the amount of salt in this thread is unreal. Fucking hysterical

The fact that they're using actual Watchmen characters does seem to place the blame on that book and not what followed.

I don't know, maybe the twist is that it's actually just some dude making it *look like* Watchmen are part of the canon now, but that seems too meta to make it work narrative wise.

fourcolormedmon.blogspot.com/2012/09/some-examples-of-violence-filled-panels.html

>hope
>fun

>a few gruesome deaths
>worse than kid miracleman massacring London
>worse than Evy getting tortured
>worse than fish masturbation

The fact that people replied to OP unironically is just sad.

they should have blamed Identity Crisis since that's the very turning point

No one is blaming Alan Moore. If anything, it's DC looking at itself and realizing they've been riding on Watchmen for too long and took the wrong ideas from it.

I really can't understand how the fuck you'd come to the conclusion that DC is blaming Moore. Like, there are layers of flaws with that logic.

Morrison's Batman run and Action Comics were worse than the holocaust apparently.

Damn you, Alan Moore! Why must you ruin DC!

Why comicfags are such whiny little bitches?

Niggers never stop complaining.

>we didn't do it! mean ol' uncle alan MADE us do it!

>Moore hasn't worked for DC for 30 years
>Still somehow more important than all the writers artists and editors who have worked there since

Wow, venturing into tinfoil hat territory there

Maybe he's using it to stand for more than just Watchmen, Moore, and/or fans of Watchmen or Moore.

Watchmen's influence specifically Manhattan makes sense in the context of what DC (and comics in general) actually makes sense in this metaphor.

Alan Moore being personally responsible for the state of DC Comics does not work in this metaphor. Blaming Watchmen as the work itself also does not make sense because Watchmen is not actually canon in DC Comics.

Use some critical thinking my friend.

Because we're not cool kids like you who don't care about stuff.

Some of us actually like comic books.

This is like if Morrison made a comic to blame people using meta-themes in comics

>Watchmen is not actually canon in DC Comics.
It is now, apparently to comment on the relationship between the two.

Yes, so? That doesn't equate Alan Moore to the bad guy. People automatically assume that Manhattan is going to be some moustache twirling muahahah villain. If he's a tragic figure who just wanted to experiment with life (which he most likely is), the metaphor is just about a super smart guy who created something beautiful, but didn't foresee its long term impacts on the overall DC universe. That's a perfect metaphor, respectful to both Moore and the state of DC comics.

Its bullshit because DC was dark and edgy before the new 52
remember all the dumb superboy prime shenanigans and the black adam killing everyone in WW3?

I mean for Johns to act like Watchmen influenced all of that and now that they realize it it will stop is stupid.

according to Geoff Johns, Alan Moore used his wizard powers from his mighty Snake God to curse dc comics for the last thirty years

The fact that they're using an Alan Moore character from watchmen as the catalyst for this dark age is a little condemning. "Oh were not blaming you were just making you the bad guy"

Ok, from what I read, it seems that Johns actually blames DC riding too much on the Watchmen for how bad the comics have been since that, and while I disagree up to a point (Identity Crisis seem more at fault there), you can't deny that Watchmen whether you liked or not did change the view of how superheroes act. Now, can people blame writers due to following the same formula of Watchmen? Yes, but don't act as if ypu can't control what they write, or at least fix and throw out of continuity stupid stuff. Hell, this shoulf have been done too with DC movies, because really, trying to put grimdark and blatant misinterpretation of character due to thinking it's FUN is what made people also lose interest in BvS

I probably have read more than you.

When you guys learn that you just need to enjoy the ride and read what you like and ignore what you dont like?

People screaming that THEY should be the ones pandered to is the reason for why we are on this mess on the Big 2.

Griwn the fuck up, its just comics.

Is Manhattan really that powerful? I think reshaping a whole universe and stealing love is a bit over his powerlevel.

When he said "I was going to create life somewhere else" I thought he was just putting amino acids on water and then fast forward time. Maybe influence the new world. But I never got the impression that he could create an actual universe with actual people. After all his biggest feat in Watchmen was to create a crystal castle in mars.

DC heroes have always been heroic though. And when they're not, they get retconned like when Johns removed Hal's drunk driving incident and responsbility for what he did as Parallax.

>I mean for Johns to act like Watchmen influenced all of that and now that they realize it it will stop is stupid.

You are correct that DC's problems extend further past that, but you can use New 52 as a clear divide between an ideal DC and the DiDio era DC because New 52 expunged all continuity, especially the continuity prior to Infinite Crisis, and made that kind of post-Infinite Crisis kind of dark and edgy the ONLY game in town for DC continuity.

It's clear that Johns is trying to signal Rebirth an actual honest to god attempt to move past all of this and carve out what his ideal DC is. Good for him, it's a brutally honest apology and an amazing banner to rally behind. We'll see if it actually pans out in the long run, but it gives me hope for DC moving forward.

Well he isn't silver age so I doubt Geoff gives a fuck about utilizing him appropriately

>Johns actually blames DC riding too much on the Watchmen for how bad the comics have been since that
Is Alan Moore and DC to blame for creating edgy OCs like Grail? Or having Superman blow up a world? Or putting Lex on the JL? Did they put Pandora in a refrigerator?

Funny how it EVERYONE else's fault but little Geoff Johns is completly innocent....WEIRD!

Johns is a bronze ager, he was born after the silver age ended.

>Funny how it EVERYONE else's fault but little Geoff Johns is completly innocent....WEIRD!

Nowhere does Johns absolve himself of blame, in fact in this metaphor that Johns is crafting, HE is part of the DC Comics braintrust that has been push the Watchmen influence. He is responsible, he's just finally righting what's been wronged.

>Ever read Cry for Justice
Miniseries don't count. Also, we don't mention Cry For Justice in pleasant company.

The dick move is that he's doing this with someone else's character as the figurehead of all that's wrong. Its laying some blame 'intentionally or not' at the feet of a story that was never intended to be some great maker of darkness. It was the laziness and stupidity of those in charge that did that. But Geoff isn't gonna work in some subtle analogue to those who actually changed things...no just slap a watchmen character in there. That's popular.

>he doesn't know about miracleman

don't cut yourself with that edge

Maybe this is payback for Moore calling Johns a piece of shit a few years back. But then again, Moore has a grudge against everyone.

>The dick move is that he's doing this with someone else's character as the figurehead of all that's wrong.

Like it or not, the iconic figure of Manhattan is the most thematically resonant character they could've used. He could have created a Gentry like figure, but using Manhattan himself drives the point home harder than it ever possibly could, while also hitting necessary plot beats that fit in completely with the established universe. The blue hand at the creation of the universe being Manhattan is a master stroke of genius.

>hating on Lex in the justice league
>caring about Pandora
Bait me harder

>The blue hand at the creation of the universe being Manhattan is a master stroke of genius.

It's pointless fanservice, more like it.

It's a lazy cash in from a lesser writer who would sooner pick low hanging fruit than come up with a more thoughtful alternative.

>It's lazy and bad and he's stupid and he can't do better

Please come back with an actual counter argument.

>The comics that I read as a kid that inspired me were full of ideas. They didn’t need some upstart from England to come over there and tell them how to do comics. They’d got plenty of ideas of their own. But these days, I increasingly get a sense of the comics industry going through my trashcan like raccoons in the dead of the night.

That's not what user said, though.

> But these days, I increasingly get a sense of the comics industry going through my trashcan like raccoons in the dead of the night.

So Johns and Moore are in agreement.

...

No, he just dressed it up in fancier words. See when you call something a lazy cash-in you need to actually do the footwork and actually argue why this is the case. How is this the low hanging fruit? Even if it was, why is that necessarily bad in a medium of storytelling that has often excelled at taking simple ideas and presenting them as bigger than life?

It's like the post-Giffen/Dematties, pre-Morrison League.

Not unreadable, but why would you bother?

No shit. You think people would have gave a fuck about Darkseid War in a year if it wasn't for the 3 jokers?

This is just Geoff Johns piggybacking off of Alan Moore's success to leave his mark before he fucking off to Hollywood to give blowjobs to film and tv suits.

He means that Dr. Manhattan is going to be the next big villain because it's surprising and gets headlines.

Not everything has to be some bitter commentary.

I still want Scarecrow to join the Sinestro Corps full time, just to see how Batman would deal with it.

This, people are giving Johns too much credit.

Johns doesn't like Batman or bat-related characters so he teased that for a few panels before having Luthor steal the ring because Luthor is the best.

It's kinda funny you bring up fridging when Alan Moore wrote the Killinng Joke

Hey John's doesn't have to do it Cullen Bunn, Venditti, Sogfucker or King can.

do we get to see more blue penis?

Dude you just claimed Geoff referencing a pre crisis incident in the hand creating the universe to explain post watchmen dark dcu creation and then going "oh yeah uh...it was Dr. Manhattan's hand" as a master stroke of genius.

I'm not the one who needs to back up his argument here as all your doing is fangushing on hack writing because it's Geoff johns.
Using Manhattan was unnecessary and lazy. And it was done because of character popularity. Not to mention doing so is dragging what was once a standalone story into the latest dc crossover cash grab.

Babs didn't die. And her injury at least had emotional impact.

Johns killed his original female character for no reason other than he had no idea what to do with her and thought it would be fun to shit on Alan Moore. Geoff Johns a baby in a man's body.

Nothing was stopping any future writer from using super science to fix her spine after the book was written. They didn't because no one at the time cared about Batgirl, she had already retired due to the lack of caring.