So why did people hate New52 Superman so much? Looking back at his relatively short reign, he actually got some great stories: >Morrison Action Comics >Johns' Men of Tomorrow >Superman Unchained >Paktion Comics (especially the first arc. It wavered after that, but was still good) Heck, even Lobdell's DBZ-tier shit was pretty decent to read with your brain turned off. I think getting 4 great arcs in 5 years is pretty impressive, especially for Superman.
And when you look at what some other characters got, you gotta give the New 52 some props. Wonder Woman got an excellent run, Batman had a few great arcs, Lemire's Green Arrow was awesome, Shazam's new origin and inclusion in the JL was fantastic, if underutilized, Johns' Aquaman was the best thing to happen to the character since Peter David, and Parker's run was solid, Jonah Hex had a great series and probably the best finale issue he could hope for, Forever Evil was fun, too. There are probably a bunch of other little things New 52 certainly isn't the cancer people make it out to be.
Unchained was crummy but still those are the exceptions, not the rule.
That said, I don't understand why anyone thinks he's "edgy" or anything like that because he's not. It's just his costume sucks.
Nolan Brown
There was nothing wrong with him and I don't understand why they had to kill him.
They could've left him depowered and then Clark's identity problem would've been resolved.
Aiden Scott
Turns out that Superman fans are the real casuals that don't actually read comics.
This is also proven but how few people buy those comics.
Kevin Gomez
>those are the exceptions, not the rule. I feel like, with monthly comics, good stuff is always the exception. The majority is, at best forgettable, and at worst abysmal.
I think he got some runs over the past few years that should be considered among his best.
Daniel Carter
>Wonder Woman got an excellent run Could've been don without New 52
>Batman had a few great arcs Like what? We got Incorporated fucking butchered and killed as soon as Morrison left, we got fantastic Dick as Gotham Batman/Bruce as Planet Batman dynamic killed. Can't remember a single story that'd be worth it for those.
>Lemire's Green Arrow was awesome Discount Immortal Iron Fist with SHIT art
>Shazam's new origin and inclusion in the JL was fantastic No
>Johns' Aquaman was the best thing to happen to the character since Peter David It was also completely independent of New 52 and in fact came out of Brightest Day
>Jonah Hex had a great series It was great since 2005 though
>Forever Evil was fun Nigger please
TL;DR None of the good stuff needed New 52 to happen. You might frget or just plain not know but the first two-three years of it were a dirty ugly mess of editorial and management fuck ups almost weekly
Eli Sanders
>None of the good stuff needed New 52 to happen. You might frget or just plain not know but the first two-three years of it were a dirty ugly mess of editorial and management fuck ups almost weekly My point is that nothing needs any particular continuity to "happen". We just need good stories.
>not liking NuShazam this is probably the easiest way to tell when someone has shit taste. The only reason to hate that is a serious, blinding case of "not muh".
Gavin Adams
Hated his costume
Carson Edwards
>I hate good stories I hate posters like you
Josiah Perez
Liked the costume, i liked the new 52 armour look no idea why, Spandex always looked "outdated" to me
Andrew Perry
Honestly, I think at least part of it was the "not muh Supes" thing, especially when he started sticking it in Wonder Woman.
I know that despite story quality, I still had a "not MY Superman" feeling every time I read his books no matter how hard I tried (as opposed to the Superdad series, which was instant happiness). It was a feeling that never went away with him.
James Moore
NuSupes end character development with Morrison.
After that it was power feats and added abilities with hindrances that also serve as plot devices in reserve.
I didn't hate it, but some artists drew it better than others. Some made it look downright awful. Lee handled it best, obviously.
I like the idea of his costume being Kryptonian in origin, the whole bit of him reclaiming it from Brainiac was pretty neat. I never much cared for the "my mom made it for me" angle, since it always seemed so forced on him. Plus, being Kryptonian actually offers a good explanation as to why it's indestructible.
That said, I also like the rebirth design, besides the stupid blue boots. It's a shame they didn't use pic-related. Probably one of the best Supes costumes I've ever seen.
Brody Morris
Why is Morrison unable to fuck up bros?
He made me love Superbro.
Jaxson Sullivan
That costumes nice prefer OPs pic. But that supes looks really bad to me looks like he has down syndrome.
Thomas Martin
He started with a different personality (which was a good thing), he was cocky, sure of himself and had kind of a short temper for bullshit. He wasn't the paragon of good and virtue he was pre-New 52 and that was alright.
He kind of became pretty much the same character, personality-wise, to his pre-new52 self months before his death, which was both heartwarming and...underwhelming. I liked him.
Why are people so upset about him dying, is he not coming back or something?
Joshua Hill
You are the cancer, Jim Lee.
John Reyes
what's up with 2 supermen? why they make it so convoluted?
Ryder Hall
the non existent cancer ok bro.
Brayden Campbell
>all this superbro apologism
jesus.
Nicholas Reed
>implying superbro was bad you never gave him a chance before you wrote him off screaming MUH EDGE.
Jackson Wright
Forever evil was the only good new 52 arc. I'll give you the rest though. Darkseid war wasn't terrible either. But the rest was garbage.
Julian Garcia
You're one of thoooooose. Move along fellas.
Hunter Cook
Supes does seem a tiny bit money at times but other then that I don't see why people called him edgy
Now the costume was shit but it's just getting worse.
Nobody would have cared if you had kept him alive and adjusted his personality just enough to fix his few minor problems
Jose Roberts
Nobody said any of it needed the new 52 user
Caleb Sanders
I think supermans stupid lines about equal justice at the start of that issue is where most of the accusations of edginess come from.
Nathan Walker
*A tiny bit mopey
Kevin Baker
He has had some good stories, but for some reason the character as never quite grew on me. Superman and Lois, on the contrary, was mediocre short series, but i liked the character more.
In any case, kill nu52 Superman is bullshit. Then, perhaps, we will find out that he's SuperBoy-Prime or SuperBoy Connor, but in any case for me two Superman could coexist peacefully. Nu52 as the main Superman and Post Crisis as a simple reserve.
Lucas Reyes
Turns out "NOT MUH" is a valid complain when said by Superfags
>hypocrites
Dylan White
N52 Superman on JLA/JL and Pre-FP SM on JSA. That's a agreeable setup for me.
Jacob Thomas
>NuSupes end character development with Morrison At least he HAD character development though. He barely had any before that. In most pre and post-crisis stories, his character was always "morally perfect, endlessly-compassionate god who is loved by everyone"
>Darkseid war not terrible >Rest was garbage I didn't think it was possible to have taste this pleb. Although to be fair, Darkseid War started phenomenally, but it only makes what followed that much worse.
>Why are people so upset about him dying, is he not coming back or something? He likely will, but to me, it's the fact that they are taking the current universe's Superman, a Superman that actually had some variety in his characterization, and are forsaking him to the grave just so they can paste pre-Flashpoint Superman back into the books to appease neckbeards.
It's a sound strategy. There are people in this thread that openly admit that the recent Lois and Clark series was nothing remarkable, but they liked it simply because it was "Muh Superman".
Ethan Roberts
I think he's going to come back but he'll be revealed to have been Superboy Prime or Kal-L or some shit. It's clear he'll never be the main Superman again, Superdad will be the one true Superman.
Jordan Thompson
>It's clear he'll never be the main Superman again Sucks. He had more variety and growth in 5 years than most Supermen get. >inexperienced, cocky, T-shirt Supes >overconfident, stoic early JL Supes >compassionate, friendly standard Supes >disillusioned, betrayed, struggling "Truth" Supes And then he finally gets his powers back, eager to be Superman once again, just in time to fucking die. Being New 52 Superman was suffering.
Andrew Carter
I think the biggest dilemma was that DC was pushing him as being really young and mopey, even if that didn't really come across in the comics a lot. Now if they had started out marketing him as a mischevious silver age jerk, it would have probably worked mich better, but for some reason, every cover had him look like he was about to murder someone.
Jordan Clark
Well if they are doing this why not bring pre-52 Batman back too?
Mason Powell
Nobody cares about him before. It 's just when a character dies, that people, immediately, starts worrying. People are compassionate with the deads, exactly as they are hateful with the livings.
Jaxon Rogers
>My point is that nothing needs any particular continuity to "happen". We just need good stories.
Stories that do build off each other and go somewhere can be more long-term satisfying than ones that constantly happen in a vaccuum or pull spontaneous, contextless character "development" out of their ass rather than having it be the product of experience the reader has witnessed.
Isaac Reyes
>not bring pre-52 Batman back too?
Because Pre52-Batman has always been here. it's all mind fuck made from Doc manhattan. But Superman was away when it happened, and then, Doc had to find a replacement.
Nu52 Superman has always been a fake. Virtually the Dc readers are experiencing now the marvel saga of Clone with twenty years late.
Wyatt Perez
Why do you speak in plurals like the cartoonishly foreign guy from Ghostbusters 2?
Jeremiah Stewart
Marvel conditioned comic readers to only like SJW garbage
Camden Miller
semi related, but will DC fix lobo too? that new faggoty fuck was incredibly boring. why not keep lobo the way he is, as a remnant of the 90s if nothing else
Daniel Roberts
Oh I imagine the only reason for that particular un-retcon to take any time at all is solely due to a lack of non-Lantern space books for Lobo to appear in.
Nathaniel Hughes
>But Superman was away when it happened, and then, Doc had to find a replacement
OK please please help me out here. I've been trying to figure this out.
Where was Superman when "it" happened?
Have we seen on-panel anywhere that N52 Superman isn't actually Superman at all (A la clone saga)?
Basically I've been thinking of this whole thing as
but now I'm realizing that that isn't true at all, since Rebirth isn't quite so Crisis-y.
If Flash, Batman, everyone is the New 52 version AND the post-crisis version, WHY are there TWO Supermen??
Brody Hernandez
the Nu52 has been revealed to be the same universe as Post-Crisis DC, all the people are the same but their histories have been tweaked by Dr. Manhattan.
According to Convergence, Superman was yoinked out of the timeline pre-Flashpoint by Brainiac.
If he's the real Superman, then Nu52 Superman must be some kind of replacement-Clark that Manhattan found elsewhere and slotted in because someone has to fill Clark's role in the universe.
Lois was stolen by Brainiac too, though, so they've still gotta explain why there's two of her.
The most logical guess at the moment eeems to be Nu52 Lois and Clark were the Kal-L and Lois who died in Infinite Crisis. They were originally from the Pre-Crisis Earth 2 which was based on the Golden Age, and Nu52 Clark's origin is deliberately extremely similar to Golden Age Superman's.
Blake Collins
>but now I'm realizing that that isn't true at all, since Rebirth isn't quite so Crisis-y. >If Flash, Batman, everyone is the New 52 version AND the post-crisis version, WHY are there TWO Supermen??
Realistically the writers had not planned this mess. "In story" we still we do not know.
One hypothesis (but of course does not mean anything) is that, when pre Flashpoint Superman has joined the Convergence, along with Lois, this drove him out "his time".Creating a paradox with Lois too.
Obviously no one knows yet what the fuck is going on.
Justice League 3000,Justice League International,Justice League United, Secret Origins,Worlds' Finest,Arkham Manor,Gotham Academy,Gotham by Midnight,Grayson,Batman/Superman,Superboy,Larfleeze,Red Lanterns, Sinestro,Blue Beetle,Legion Lost,G.I. Combat,Infinity Man and the Forever People,Stormwatch,Team 7,Threshold,Animal Man,Demon Knights,Dial H,Frankenstein, Agent of S.H.A.D.E.,Resurrection Man,Swamp Thing,The Multiversity, some Convergence minis etc
Jack Sanchez
That first Justice League arc left people with a horrible first impression that he never really got to recover from.
Ryan Flores
I'm reading Nu52 Supes for the first time (Action Comics and Superman runs) and while Action Comics is solid the self titled book is just so bland. There's just nothing interesting going on so far (I'm on issue 10 iirc). Maybe it gets better when a new writer takes over but for this being their kickoff to a reboot it's severely underwhelming
Nathaniel Richardson
The Shade,The Ray,Phantom Lady and Doll Man,The New 52: Futures End,Forever Evil,Damian: Son of Batman ,Klarion, Prez
Brody Gonzalez
Superman-Batman was also pretty cool, at least before he got depowered and Jim was Robatman
Jace Peterson
Do you know where teh enter button is?
Gavin Morris
>Klarion I thought people hated that comic?
Daniel Richardson
Well, i kinda liked it.
Tablet, sorry
Sebastian Hill
>The Shade,The Ray,Phantom Lady and Doll Man There are people who still care about the Freedom Fighters? This was what? Their fourth version in a decade?
The only issue I have with him is his lack of red shorts.
Christopher Stewart
Fuck that I hope they never come back.
Jacob Nelson
Go back in time 50 years and complain about there being 2 Flashes. That's where it all started.
Dominic Hill
...
Owen Bell
A pity that it did not last. I liked the Old Superman in the JSA.
Levi Nguyen
To me the big problem with Nu52 Superman is that right from the start DC didn't have a fucking idea what he was supposed to be and every writer had his own version of him. You can tell me he's had good stories over the few years, but I can't connect those stories to an actual character, just a placeholder with 'Superman' written on it. With the old Superman I at least always knew who he was.
The only enduring trait of Nu2 Superman was that lois was friendzoning him, which was bullshit bullshit BULLSHIT.
Joseph James
>the self titled book is just so bland user, just stop. It doesn't become worth reading at all until Geoff Johns takes over, around issue 32 I think? Just skip to that if you wanna read something good.
Jayden White
Wow, what a sperg. You sound like the kind of person who incorrectly values familiarity and consistency over quality and variety. Please remove yourself from the gene pool.
David Lopez
Comic books fans are horrible people ruining comics
Ian Long
And yet in that same first issue, this happened.
It's just further proof that the loudest complainers don't actually read the comics they complain about. Anyone who had been reading Action Comics or Superman up to that point had just come off of two pretty great arcs that showed Superman to be as compassionate and human as ever, so anyone with half a brain would know that regardless of a new haircut, his personality wasn't going to change overnight.
Tyler Anderson
>He barely had any before that
>his character was always "morally perfect endlessly-compassionate god who is loved by everyone"
Listen. This was my issue with nu52 to begin with. Rehashing everything all over again with a twist. All this change, post crisis Superman had already gone through it. Gone through decades of change following different tendencies and the next writer trying to reconcile it all. Then even his pre crisis history was consolidated with the LoSH. Don't tell me he hadn't changed before. Or been flawed. It's showing.
Christian Cruz
He said Nu52 has good stories, but he did not like the way they portrayed Superman. And on some things he's right. Nu52Superman changes personality from one author to another.
Julian Smith
Right, because consistent characterization isn't at all important when it comes to liking characters.
C'mon.
Austin Sanders
It's people who didn't read yelling NOT MUHHHH 90% of people who actually read enjoyed.
David Torres
Now there's the real MVP. Kingdom Come Superman.
Man, what a guy.
Can you imagine a story with KC Superman, Kal-L, Pre-Flashpoint Superman AND New52 Superman in it?
Make this happen, DC, chop chop.
Brody Kelly
He changed in the ways that any character changes when handed to different writers, but post-crisis Supes didn't grow as much in his 25 years as Nu52 did in just 5. There was a conscious effort to show that younger Superman was a different person, and that he had a hard time working with others in Justice League, and we eventually saw him become the Superman everyone expects in later issues of Superman and Action Comics, only to then have it ripped away from him.
And despite the fact that it ultimately dragged on too long without purpose, the Truth arc was probably one of the most interesting concepts the character has seen in years.
John White
>Looking back at his relatively short reign Honestly if you think Superman is going to stay dead, you should have stayed on the short bus. Preboot Superman's upcoming run is the equivalent of Gordon filling in for Bruce as Batman. It's temporary.
Kevin Martinez
Remember when DC fags used to defend the Nu52 (me included) against Marvel in company war threads?
Remember how we dismissed haters for not reading any of these good books when slagging off the reboot?
It's bizarre to see all these people suddenly turn on it and bring out the knives. Fucking Johnsfags.
Nathan Robinson
post crisis Superman stopped evolving the minute Byrne left the book to be honest.
Liam Jones
Morrison's run was good but slightly disjointed. John's run was fun but dumb as shit. Superman Unchained was OK but generally a let down from the high stakes action of his Batman run (also it took forever to finish shipping). I thought Pak's run was hot garbage.
Lots of new 52 Superman moments were him hitting a monster and getting knocked around before losing his powers and getting them back or something. Boring.
Jaxson Taylor
Wait so 52 Supes was Golden age superman? Would that explain why he actually developed a new power?
Camden Cook
>So why did people hate New52 Superman so much?
The main Superman ongoing was unreadable. You had literally one year worth of shitty stories by Perez and Giffen/Jurgens playing to the nonexistent Daemonite crossover. Then fucking Scott Lobdell on Superman. Before being returning to some semblance of sanity with a brief arc by Johns and then Johns quits and you get the unappealing Gene Yang.
Action Comics had a good year and a half worth of stories under Morrison. Then a brief shitstorm with Diggle/Daniel. Then Pak comes along. But the problem with Paktion and Yang's Superman is really the inundation of crossovers (that is undoubtedly Berganza's fault since he did the same thing when MOA ran the Superman book). And Pak's strengths are NOT crossovers. His best Superman moments are usually standalone stories like the Secret Origin story he wrote with Lara or the Doomsday one shot.
Which is the biggest problem with the Superbooks presently. Editorial is playing the books mostly as large epic set pieces or as part of larger crossovers when they should be more standalone. It's why Nu52 Superbooks feels so shit compared to the Post-Crisis reboot which had its flaws, but it wasn't such a massive failure where 1/2 the books were unreadable or you had a constant revolving door of writers.
Alexander Harris
>but generally a let down from the high stakes action of his Batman run You have absolute shit taste, Snyder's Batman is a snorefest and has no stakes at all.
Landon Gutierrez
His Joker arcs were underwhelming, but Zero Year was nice and the Court of Owls is the greatest addition to his gallery of villains in a long time.
Chase Walker
I'm not complaining about the story I'm complaining about the promo art.
I want them to stop doing that shit because it's making people not want to read the comics.
John Fisher
Fuck that I hope they do
Lucas Campbell
Court of Owls was the only ok thing about Snyder's run.
Other than that, terrible. I hate to sound like a morrisonfag but we went from one of the greatest Batman runs of all time to Snyder's.
Jack Richardson
>I'm complaining about the promo art. But... Why?
>it's making people not want to read the comics. Again, how preview story and just cover makes you not read one of the greatest challenge of superman?
Gavin Perry
You sound like a kid who hasn't read lots of comics/haven't been reading very long
Grayson Long
>post crisis Superman stopped evolving the minute Byrne left the book to be honest.
Byrne Superman was already mature and veteran in man of steel. Despite this, the character has had to manage a lot of changes in his life. Like the time where Luthor became President, Superman has had to evolve a lot to accept what was being asked to him. At that time also he was smiling less and wearing the black S for mourning.
To be frank, even Batman and Wonder Woman have not changed so much.
Josiah Ward
Maybe that is the problem. Snyder's run is far from bad, but we were used to Grant Morrison.
Luis Watson
The Batgordon stuff had great art and but the story was a mess.
Waste of awesome designs IMO.
Asher Flores
I'm more knowledgeable about Batman and have been reading for far longer than you have, I assure you. You're the one that seems a bit childish and your taste seems terrible if Snyder is what you consider great.
Angel Collins
Yeah, in the end it went nowhere and Gordon looked like an incompetent old man while Bruce 2.0 saved the day.
Carter Diaz
>Court of Owls was the only ok thing about Snyder's run. >Other than that, terrible. I hate to sound like a morrisonfag but we went from one of the greatest Batman runs of all time to Snyder's.
I swear, the only thing I could think about while reading Court of Owls was "RIP did it better"
Sebastian Stewart
Because it was a fundamentally different character. Superman is a dude who saves people when nobody else can just because he can. New 52 "Superman" is just a guy with Superman's powers and name. But as many people have pointed out, Superman's powers are boring and the character is a generic bland template who on top of that is ludicrously overpowered. When you remove the "guy who gets shit done just purely because it needs doing" aspect or the "farm boy from small town America" aspect or the relationship dynamic he has with his supporting cast you're just left with the ultimate generic superhero who's retardedly overpowered on top of that and no one wants that.
Eli Moore
>Heck, even Lobdell's DBZ-tier shit was pretty decent to read with your brain turned off.
No it wasn't.
Nathaniel Butler
>Have we seen on-panel anywhere that N52 Superman isn't actually Superman at all (A la clone saga)?
It's stated in Rebirth that the dead Superman isn't who he (Pre-Flashpoint Clark) thought he was, and Clark isn't who he thinks he is either. The Clark bit is probably just referencing how he didn't realize that he's in his own world. Although it's revealed by Wally in the narrative that it's all the same world, just altered by an outside force, Clark never learns about it in the issue itself. We'll probably get confirmation in the Rebirth one shots, I think. At least, for Pre-Flashpoint Clark. New52 probably will be a mystery for longer.
>Where was Superman when "it" happened? At the end of Convergence, everyone is sent back to their own timelines, but Parallax Hal, Superman and Lois choose to follow Barry and Kara to the original Crisis, rather than return to their original times. The Pre-Flashpoint people were taken from right before the flashpoint energy wave was covering the world and presumably sent back to the same moment. So, Superman and Lois weren't there when Flashpoint happened.
Yes, Pre-Zero Hour Parallax Hal never returned to his original timeline either, but we'll probably get some kind of explanation about Hal and Parallax in Green Lantern. During their battle in 50, modern Hal became some kind of energy ghost for a while, so there's something odd with him too.
Jeremiah Morgan
That's just speculation at this point. We just have Oz vague statement about him not being who we thought he was, alongside both Clark and Lois having doubles, while everyone else, even Wally, is the same before and after Flashpoint.
Nathaniel Sanchez
But it didn't, user
Dominic Thompson
Underwear fags getting their underwear in a bunch.
Juan Nelson
>Zero Year >terrible
What, it's one of the best stories in the last years. Also Morrison's run felt pretty tired at the end