Omnipotence Paradox

Alright Christcucks, since you've been spamming this board as of lately; i'd like to let you know about the omnipotence paradox, if you have not heard of it (which I assume you haven't): If God is omnipotent that means he must be able to create a Rock that he cannot lift, if he cannot create the rock that means he is not omnipotent, and if he can create the rock that also means he is not omnipotent. Your move Christcucks.

He creates a rock so heavy that he cannot lift.
Then he makes it lighter.

Sage cus not politics.

>God can create a married bachelor
This whole "can't make rock 2 bug 2 lift' is illogical; God is logical.

He must be able to lift it first, if he makes it lighter that means he cannot lift it, therefore making him un-omnipotent

Not an argument

>Not an argument
Ok.

Are you retarded, how is it illogical? It literally states that something omnipotent can't exist in a rational world.

Omnipotent? I'd like to invite you to take your straw man and leave.

God can both create one so heavy he can't lift and lift one so heavy he can't lift. He's not limited by any principles of humans. He's not bound by gravity, force, friction, etc. These are all laws of our world and God encompasses many worlds. Any conceivable idea that a human can come up with are all contained within the limits of our conception.

Fuck off monkey, go eat your zika infested banana

>God creates a rock so heavy even He cannot lift it
>God increases His power level
>lifts rock
>checkmate, cuckthiests

>cites own lack of imagination as evidence of something being impossible
Good work. You will succeed in all you do.

>can God force himself to abide by rules of nature that he created while simultaneously staying all powerful

yes

see: Jesus Christ

So you are saying that god is irrational? Following this why should you believe in something irrational when so far everything in our universe is rational?

Not an argument

The Biblical God molded us after himself and his concepts, therefore according to the Bible our concepts and God's concepts are very similar. These logical concepts can apply to God, and if he can't lift a rock so heavy or can that still means he isn't omnipotent.

If the rules that he created are able to overpower even himself that means he isn't omnipotent.

Still thinking in terms of your own perspective. Not irrational just beyond the limits of our thoughts. It's like going from 2D to 3D. If you draw a picture of a stickman, he exists only in that world on a 2D plane. He exists only in two dimensions and cannot possibly fathom a third. In terms of his own rationality, the person existing in a third dimension would be irrational and not abide by the laws of his world. That makes the stickman uninformed and his perspective skewed and limited.

I also molded the stickman in my argument after myself. He just fails to exist in a third dimension.

Literally retarded.

You're basically asking the question "Can God's powers go beyond God's powers?"

It's illogical and makes no sense.

Jesus = God

God the Father = God

Jesus is bound by laws of nature

God the Father is not

Therefore God is both bound by the laws of nature and not.

Therefore the Omnipotence Paradox is false.

God's power is infinite

that doesn't even counter that argument. Answer these questions to follow the logical chain here
>Can God create anything?
>If yes to the previous question, God can create a rock he cannot lift. If no to the previous question, God is not omnipotent.
>Can God do anything?
>If yes, can god lift something he cannot lift(impossible, you can't do and not do something at the same time). If no, God is not omnipotent.

Fedora meme me all you want but when you say he can do anything and everything no matter what and nothing ever applies to him unless you want it and only when you want it to, then it's very hard to take you seriously. Especially if that's a cornerstone of your worldview. This isn't open-the-fridge-when-you-know-there's-no-food tier, this is your fucking worldview.

If you can only describe something in terms that don't make sense then you have no business arguing for it.

>that doesn't even counter the argument

yes it does. The fact that Jesus is God incarnate solves the paradox.

Not a christian btw

But the rules of the third dimension can still apply to the rules of the second dimension in which your stickman exists. Assuming God created us un-Ironically that means he created us after the rules of his own dimension, omnipotence must therefore apply to God's dimension.

I have a small dick

My dick erects

Given erection, my dick is no longer small

Ergo, my dick was small but by erection became big

Similarly God is omnipotent

But he became man

So he now also undergoes suffering and hunger and vulnerability by virtue of this human nature

But like my erect dick can become small, God can also become omnipotent despite his taking human flesh

PARADOX SOLVED!

>God creates a 50 pound rock
>god shape-shifts into a small child that cannot lift the rock

OP sucks at writing fiction.

>using paradoxes as arguments
You're retarded. It's like I tried to prove that it is impossible to walk from point A to point B because I'd first have to travel half that distance then a quarter of that distance and so on, which sounds impossible because it's an infinite number of tasks to complete (Dichotomy paradox).
And that's what paradoxes are. Impossible situations.
tl;dr: Not an argument.

>Can god create something that is simultaneously A and not A?
No, (A and not A) = False by definition.

can someone make a counter signal meme with the "hey, if your so called gOD can't create something abiding by my contradictory rules derived from self delusion, then your perfect being isn't so perfect anymore, hehe tough luck fundie"

it's just another paradox because it's an omnipotent being being a non-omnipotent being at the same time. You're begging the question in that you assume that Jesus isn't himself a paradox by the christian belief in what he was and then applying the same standard with that assumption to the original problem.

If man has free will that means he must be able to do anything he wants, if he cannot that means he has no free will.

>Let's apply human logic to a being so far beyond our limited faculties that we can hardly come to comprehend in any meaningful or universally recognized way
>Checkmate theists
>*tips fedora*
Inb4 "no u"

No, putting limitations on a predefined omnipotence is illogical.

ALLAH SNACKBAR!!!!!

also, sage

>using paradoxes as arguments it retarded
>I say god is omnipotent even thought hat is a paradox
you are the one relying on paradoxes, he is simply pointing them out. Care to explain what is wrong with OP's thinking outside of "I don't like paradoxes when they apply to my worldview?"

>an omnipotent being being in two places at once and two different states at once is a paradox

no, it's not.

"Omnipotent" is a social construct.

It's a paradox when an omnipotent being can simultaneously be not omnipotent as well. Apply yourself friend.

Hi I'm an Atheist too. However I think Atheists who feel the need to spend countless hours "debunking" religion don't adhere the principal of agnosticism that is a core of informed atheism.

You are an atheist by vogue, and not because you ever demonstrated the mental capacity to come up with an original thought of your own or were even capable of pondering it in the first place.

Omnipotent includes being not omnipotent as well. Apply yourself.

It doesn't follow that an omnipotent being can create something greater than itself. Not even a Christcuck, your logic is shit.

God is ok with paradoxes and contradictions. That's how religion works.

Start making arguments or your mother dies in her sleep

That doesn't apply to God though, God should be able to create such a thing and not, if God can do such a thing that means he isn't omnipotent.

pic related

>hue monkey is devoid of logic or rationality
more at 10

Fuck off QB.
Also, he should be able to lift it and not lift it at the same time

God is beyond this universe, ergo beyond this universe's laws. He created these laws to make the universe rational, but He is an incomprehensible existence. He will make a rock heavy enough so that He can't lift it, and then He will lift it.

serious atheists know the "omnipotence paradox" is bologna.

>"...the incapacity [of not being able to do the logically impossible] in God is no evidence that he is not omnipotent, since it involves something which is logically impossible to do." -Nicholas Everitt, Philosopher, Atheist

nu-atheists should stop getting their argumentation from youtube atheist celebrities and read real scholarship

You make a video game. You set the rules. You are God of your created world. Are you omnipotent? You can say "no", but the fact remains you can set the rules, and you can change the rules as you wish at any time. You can claim "not omnipotent", but it doesn't really change the fact that you have absolute power and control. Then there's the issue that, because you can literally refining the laws of physics, you can in fact make something so heavy that it can't be lifted, and you can still lift it. If you cite the current implementation of the laws of physics as evidence that this is impossible, you are only showing your lack of understanding and intelligence.

Omnipotent beings can do ANYTHING.
Anything means creating a being greater than itself, if a being can't create a being greater than itself it is not omnipotent.

He did it. This is why there's the whole Jesus thing

And just like my erect big Dick can become small, so can the vulnerable Logos be invulnerable by virtue of its Divine Nature!!

Look up arithmetic inconsistency
You can't prove or disprove a paradox. Therefor you're biased and irrational.

>That doesn't apply to God though, God should be able to create such a thing and not, if God can do such a thing that means he isn't omnipotent.
No, the logically impossible is still impossible, even for an omnipotent being.

This is a bit of a pedantic bit of wordplay on the human term "omnipotent", which really doesn't actually mean much when you actually challenge gods to fulfill ridiculous thought experiments.

The god can do anything, which includes making really heavy rocks. Whoopty friggin doo. What is even the point of this question? It's not like it proves he doesn't exist or something.

I already explained this. There's no reason to continue repeating myself.

> Using logic as an excuse for a question
> While believing in an omnipotent all mighty being
Shouldn't you abandon all sense of logic when you become a believer? It all flies out of the window when you read any religious text.
Believing in higher extra dimensional beings is fine, since there are many things we can't explain as of now. But believing there is a book that describes them and was written millennia ago? That's just fucking stupid.

>omnipotence include not being omnipotent
>something not omnipotent is (surprise) not omnipotent
>omnipotence = x
>x = everything, including NotX
>x= notX
So it's a paradox, thank you for proving OP's point. Now we can go forward and you can argue that it's ok for God to be a paradox, but there's not much to go to from there
>it's ok! we can't ever really for sure know for sure
>it's not ok! by principle we can't assume something is true when everything in our "limited perspective" says it's not true

I'm pretty sure no intelligent sane adult believes in supernatural things like this, they always say ambiguous shit like "well that's not for humans to know I guess" and then give the real reason why they follow that religion: because they support the morals/think its good for the culture/enjoy their religious community/just dont want to let down their parents/admit its just nice to imagine they'll see their loved ones again/ect

How is what I said not an argument?

The basic concept of the question is flawed; it's illogical. God's powers can't go beyond God's powers; if His power is infinite, then He can't go beyond that.

Can a 700 watt microwave go to 900 watts? No. It's illogical. You're confusing what "omnipotent" means, but I wouldn't guess a huemoneky zika baby could into logic

the question is really just illogical nonsense. it's not a real question; it is nonsensical.

allow CS Lewis to explain:

“His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to Him, but not nonsense. There is no limit to His power.

If you choose to say, 'God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,' you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prifex to them the two other words, 'God can.'

It remains true that all things are possible with God: the intrinsic impossibilities are not things but nonentities. It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.”

You don't understand what omnipotent means. You also don't understand that what is impossible to us would not be impossible to an omnipotent being. How can you not think beyond your own limitations. Are you an autist?

He cannot be ok with a paradox about him because it debunks his omnipotence and in fact his own existence.

t. town rapist

Not an argument. The fact that he cannot lift it and then lift it ceases his omnipotence to exist.

But nothing is impossible for God, if something is logically Impossible for an omnipotent being that means he is not omnipotent in the first place.

>But believing there is a book that describes them and was written millennia ago? That's just fucking stupid.
right?
i mean come on, it's [current year]!

It proves he does not exist in the capacity of being able to do anything and everything.
Most of the time the "god" is defined as being able to do anything and everything, that's his big thing, the omnipotence.
>what is the point of logically deducing that the one thing that defines something is untrue, it's not like it proves he doesn't exist in that capacity or something

he can do both simultaneously

You don't seem to understand Christian cosmology. It's not like your Chinese cartoon power levels.

>not a christian

Nobody asked. That statement doesnt solve anything. If anytging, it only makes more questions.

>impossible to us
Fine, explain to me how A and not A can be True.

here's another pseudo-argument paradox for christcucks.

if god cannot exist and not exist at the same time, he's not omnipotent

Shit-tier flawed premise
You'd get laughed at in a discussion with any real theological scholars

We've been over this before, elementary school kids

By definition God does things that are impossible, such as exist outside of time, create the universe, etc.

It is called a 'Category Mistake' to apply your primitive understanding of physics to God.

God keeps all things in existence because he is the causer of existence. The rock is an extension of God's existence.

To ask whether God can create a rock so heavy he can't lift it is about as stupid as asking,

"Can Michael Jackson apple so hard he bananas?"

>Not an argument

Can you not think in memes? The very fact that he is God means he has complete dominion over the universe that he made with laws. You can't simply respond with Not and argument because of le epic Sup Forums memes you monkey.

You cannot counter my point with your very limited knowledge.

Reading comprehension. Like I said there are a lot of things humanity can't know, and most likely will never know.
If we can't know them now after all the technological advances, I'm pretty certain people that died of common cold and lived in shacks couldn't have known.

god is outside of this universe. he is like a game developer, he can create a rock nobody can lift and he can lift the rock too

Just read it with an open mind. you will understand the reason. New testament kjv

This all hinges on the thought processes of humans. Why is everything in our conceivable world the end all and be all? Other dimensions cannot exist? Is there nothing beyond your simple senses and understanding of our small universe? I swear, hardcore athiests, who actually believe that there is no God and could never be, are some of the most fucking dense people in the world.

A belief in something that you think doesn't exist is one thing. To deny something's existence and say it's a complete impossibility takes so much more faith than to actually believe that it does or even could exist.

Do you still not fucking understand the point?

Your question is flawed from the start. You can't argue logic and reasoning with an illogical question.

Can God's powers go beyond God's powers? Of course not, that's a retarded idea.

>debunks his omnipotence and in fact his own existence
Nope, because he's powerful enough to make that not true.

>But nothing is impossible for God, if something is logically Impossible for an omnipotent being that means he is not omnipotent in the first place.

Logic itself is a creation of, and reflects the attributes of, the Creator. What you are suggesting is that God could transgress His own attributes - and this is nonsense. No real Christian ever asserted nor believes such a thing.

Atheists seem to forget this: the orderly nature of logic, which lends structure to though, cannot itself be either an accident, or lie outside the creative aegis of God.

TL;DR stop being silly

>doesn't exist in the capacity of being able to do anything and everything

What a retarded phrase. I can't do anything and everything, whatever that means, and I still exist.

>If God is omnipotent that means he must be able to create a Rock that he cannot lift

Athiests can't understand God, therefore think he cannot do this. God can make a rock too heavy for him to lift, then also lift it.

>It proves he does not exist in the capacity of being able to do anything and everything.
logically impossible actions are not a 'thing' that can be done.
they're just words put together.

so not being able to do a thing that can't be done. . .
(examples:)
>have an immovable object and unstoppable force exist at the same time
>create a married bachelor
>frog a 23 zimbabwe chimaera pyjamas

. . .doesn't take away from an omnipotent being's ability to be able to do 'anyTHING and everyTHING' since they're not things that can be done.

Don't argue with Christcucks they can't be reasoned with.

>nobody asked

the guy who replied assumed I was Christian. I explained myself you just don't want to accept it.

though=thought*

You seem to think that Omnipotence is being able to do anything which it isn't. Simply put, what you define omnipotence to be is not so. For example, it would be true to say that GOD knows everything but that's not entirely accurate. God wouldn't know that there is a rabbit in my room since there is no rabbit in my room and thus gaining that knowledge is illogical and impossible. It's the same thing with the so called Omnipotence Paradox, God is a Maximally Great Being where none will surpass Him so the creation of a thing that God cannot lift would be impossible. For example, God cannot create a triangle with two sides or make three equal to four.

This is only a paradox if you don't understand calculus.

God has no reason to do that nor would he heed some frivolous request of a human.

You didnt refute the point, just talked around it. Lmao.

>Don't argue with Christcucks they can't be reasoned with.

facile, throwaway phrases like this tell us more about the one who spoke them than those they were spoken about. it sounds more like you are incapable of rationalizing your own position.
it's a defense mechanism, a rescue device intended to persuade a stupid listener.

>His own attributes

There is nothing to transgress. His creation is not Him. He can do whatever He wishes.

Thats not a thing. Much like creationism.

This topic shouldn't be an argument, why should you be the person that defines omnipotence if you cannot even listen to reason?

There is no text that I have that has swayed my opinion by even a little bit. Why would a higher being tell other lower beings how to live their life, which in itself should be a moment in the higher beings life, and not just force anything it wants?
Is it bound by a set of morals and beliefs? Does it just not want to? Or was there no higher being in the first place?
Too many questions, too little answers. There is a certain point where the answer "just because" isn't a valid response.

Whomever Nicholas Everitt is, he sounds like a dumbass.

>logically impossible to do
what did he mean by this?

He can create a rock that he cannot lift
He also can lift a rock that he cannot lift

He isn't constrained by the limitations of this universe like you and I are or the "unliftable" rock.

An "unliftable" rock only exists in this universe otherwise it is not an "unliftable" rock but something else altogether.

God makes a rock, then poofs away all his strength.

Bam, a rock he cannot lift, but can lift at any time.

If you truly believe he can do something that by all measures of rationality defines him as being unable to do, then you abandon rationality in the formation of a core principle in your life.

>man it just is, but we can't explain it! A and not-A can just be true if you magically think about it as being true! I'm not like gonna prove it or anything I'm just gonna think about if it was true, like hypothetically, then assume it is true for the basis of one of the most important principles i have

>trying to use logic when the being in question is inherently illogical
come now

>man we just can't possible conceive it

Sure it does, creating an immovable object is a THING that you can or cannot do. God can do anything. It's just logically inconsistent because he is logically inconsistent, like the concept of omnipotence in the first place

Ok, so if you just explain it means you are right?

The answer is no. You are wrong.

But nothing is logically impossible for the omnipotent God, even his omnipotence ceasing to exist.

What reason? Define your reasoning leaf

wtf I don't believe in God now!

No really this was already addressed over 1900 years ago in 2 Timothy 2:13.

>Implying an omnipotent being is constrained by any sort of logic or reason

There's your first mistake retard. Omnipotence is inherently illogical. An omnipotent being could create an object greater than his own power and then lift it anyway because fuck you he's all powerful.

Fucking retards