Different strokes

Is /co really okay with minority/LGBT characters? Like when does it start to bug you?

And when does it feel like pandering?

Any favorite examples of non white/non straight characters

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Ben Urich was good. I'd probably be less turned away from it if the PR departments for some of these are too busy trying to pat themselves on the back over it.

>"LOOK WE HAVE A BLACK IN OUR MOVIE!!"
>"What about him?"
>"HE'S BLAAAAAAAAAACK!"

When done like in pic related. If you're going to make Johnny black, there is no reason to not make Sue black unless you're afraid of an interracial romance or black female lead.

The problem with Black Johnny Storm is that it ripples into other characters, like what does that mean about white Susan Storm.

Yeah that's true. And this is coming from a black guy himself

Just let the work speak for itself.

Yeah aren't most movies all about interracial couples now?

It bothers me that people's argument against Heimdall was "The Norse called him the whitest god!" as if the comics ever followed the mythology or mentioned that...but not one single motherfucker could remember the BETTER argument: Heimdall is Sif's fucking brother.

>unless you're afraid of an interracial romance or black female lead.

or both

Just goes to show you who the true fans are :/

Supposidely not the case in the movies, it wouldn't be the biggest change between comics and movies.

I'm ok with it, I'd rather them not change existing characters, but it can be done right, like huntress from Grayson. Legacy characters are the best suit for introducing new minority characters. I think it's pandering when the only thing that defines a character is "Wow, a stronk Woman" or "Look how oppressed i am because of X, Y and Z"

It only bugs me when characters with a long history race or sexuality is changed.

I was pissed that they made Wally black, but that's more of me missing Wally than hating the new guy. Thanks Rebirth

And if the character is good, then I don't really care what color they are. Perfect example is Iris in the Flash. She's still hot, it's believable that Barry is in love with her, and it got Tumblr off of the CW's back. All-around win.

>when does it feel like pandering
When it's clumsily shoehorned in.
Take a character like Mister Terrific, Amanda Waller, or if we're talking gay characters, Midnighter - they're all great characters with a lot going on for them and people just don't care about their race or sexuality because of how awesome they are.

Then there are characters like black Wally, that were created for the sake of diversity, but the writers simply don't know what to do with them. They still can potentially become good characters, but they'll need something more significant than "he's black/he's gay" to do that.

This. I think that's what bothers me about Miles. He could be another cool Spider in that legacy, but all people can tell me about him is that he's Spiderman but black :/

He could have been fine as a young, cocksure, skirt-chasing thrill seeker if the movie wasn't dogshit.

>b-but muh body horror

Yeah, the guy who made fucking Chronicle is really going to make something worth a damn. Fucking Venture Bros did it better.

Also, fuck them for adopted Sue. Studio lacked balls and I'm glad that shit bombed.

Urich was great because he was a solid actor given a decent part. Still think the "old woman with dementia" is overplayed as fuck in MCU though.

It all depends on the performance. Black Jonny did not have good acting nor was there good writing or good anything in that film. Then there's BD Wong on Gotham and he has tons of character and even looks like the actual character.

"den hvide As" = The white Aesir - which meant "shining" or "light" and has nothing to do with race. He's not related to Sif in any way, he's older than most of the other gods, and not much is known about him - other than he has nine mothers, can hear the grass grow and see further than any living creature. Do read up on mythology.

This.

Ironically Black Wally might go from a bad example to a good one I think. Give him his own life with his own issues unique from White Wally could be good. He was cute in the Rebirth special and everyone interacting with Damian is great so I'm looking forward to that (praying the Titans curse doesn't claim them).

I don't give a shit as long as I get a good story out of it. The comics will change again soon enough anyway.

If you change a pre-existing character's ethnicity or sexuality then its a problem.

Creating a new character is fine...but if their entire identity is being black, gay, or whatever then what the fuck is the point? You didn't create a character you made a political cardboard cutout.

Heeeeeeeeeeeey. I liked Chronicle but yeah this movie was too focused on trying to be different that it failed at being just a movie. Really if it was the FF traveling in space, I'm sure that would've been a better movie.

At least Michael B Jordan escape from the aftermath of Trank's nightmare with Creed and was picked up by Marvel Studios.

That makes TWO Human Torches Marvel Studios saved.

>Is /co really okay with minority/LGBT characters?

No.

>Making a weird subplot about Sue being adopted rather than just casting a black actress

If you're gonna make the Storms black do it all the way.

Gay man here to make a line for everyone else still pissed at fucking Bendis turning Bobby/Iceman gay with psychic bullshit "awakening"

The thing is Michael only got the role because he was buddies with Trank. Pretty sure there not friends anymore after seeing him treat his cast members like shit.

I think he was always famous enough to get other roles. People still remember him from the Wire and Friday Night Lights.

He really should have just been bi if anything

Yep, they need to have something else going for them, like with the new huntress she's actually capable and I'm pretty sure they've not brought up the fact that she's a person of colour to give her some oppression points and make her seem better because of it.

When they race swap or have retuning or new minority characters they shouldn't advertise them as "Look at our new gay character, isn't he great, were so progressive" but they should do it as they did with midnighter, have it as a part of his character, but don't make all the villains homophobic or have his sexuality be his only defining trait. "This guy is like a batman with a supercomputer for a brain and isnt afraid to kill people, he's also gay"

That shit pissed me off, just make him bisexual, it's not going to hurt him, now all we get from him is "I'M GAY, I'M GAY, WHY DOES IT SUCK TO BE GAY, LOOK AT MY DIVERSE BLACK LOVE INTEREST, GAY GAY GAY!".

Did anything ever come of that?

I liked Static just fine.

Yeah I get you. Hopefully people learn the right way but I doubt it.

Static is the only "Black guy with electricity powers" I actually like.

A better Spiderman than Miles.

>not liking Black Vulcan in your pants.

Most people are bi or bi curious
There is so much shit given from Bendis, like god damn.

Yeah, more bullshit.

Also
>we will never know how Thor became unworthy from Nick Fury whispering sweet nothings into his ears

JUST TO REPLACE HIM WITH WHOR AS THEIR SJW PUPPET.

Same. Where is his reboot/continuation? I need more of him.

/co isn't representative of most/all fans, for starters. You're getting anonymous opinions and, at that, just the random opinions of whichever set of people happen to be on line at the moment.

With Johnny Storm as with Wally/Iris West/Jimmy Olsen, the main issue that most people bring up is making a character a different color and that doing so is just pandering.

People generally don't really have an issue with change (as female Starbuck proves and as Iris West on the Flash shows, where more people who have problems seem to have them due to her characterization, acting chops, etc., than skin color).

I think if they had made Reed, versus Johnny into an African American the uproar would have been different because you wouldn't have had the Johnny Sue shit storm as part of it.

OP here.

You bring up good points. I just genuinely like this board and don't know whether to take what it says seriously honestly, in regards to representation. So I was wondering if I was gonna get sincere thoughts. But I got answers I expected, all good.

Such as yours

The GA don't care because they have little to no concept of most characters, so if they make Iris black it doesn't matter, but make batman black and it does

Mostly the script leaks and the media that had some of Sup Forums "wake up" to the pandering bullshit.

And also ammo to prove that even ignoring the race/gender changes, the movie is shit.

See: Ghostbuster 2016

Black Wally West pissed me off because it completely changed the backstory. Wally was a carefree kid that had no problems in the world yet he still did his duties as kid flash. They turned him into a race stereotype of a fatherless black child in the hood.

At least white wally is back now

> where more people who have problems seem to have them due to her characterization, acting chops, etc., than skin color

This is really important. While there will be plenty of whining every time changing the ethnicity of a given character occurs, much of that whining dwindles away if the actor/writing really sells the idea. If there's a change but no effort is put into it or the actor is just subpar, that serves nobody.

>but make batman black and it does

I don't know about this. Asian Superman had a decent length series. You just have to get an actor with the right look and race doesn't matter.

>See: Ghostbuster 2016

I'm really looking forward to the shitstorm when that nonsense tanks.

The funny thing is that the second trailer while still crap is slightly better than the first.

>Like when does it start to bug you?

When the source material is changed.

Right? Its gamergate but with movies
"you are just a bigot"
"you are just some white women hater"
"I bet you vote trump"
Etc.

It bugs me when characters are played in tv shows and movies by actors of the wrong race.

Stop doing it.

FPBP

I can't even think of a gender/race-swapped character that I didn't like because of the switch, but every time they start talking about how progressive it all is it becomes annoying.

Don't spend your time telling me how girls can be cool, just make them cool.

This clip comes to mind: youtube.com/watch?v=-OSI-9fo_5o

Do it, don't make a big deal out of it.

There's no reason you cannot make a character who is a legacy character gay. If you can make Jonathan and Martha into living parents when Clark is Superman in the Bryne reboot (or make it that he was BORN on Earth in a Kryptonian matrix), then you can certainly tweak things about the character.

I think one problem as others have stated is the whole "gay" thing when BI is perfectly acceptable (probably more so with the younger audience that many comic book publishers want to reach).

Making Iceman Bobby into bisexual deals with all the historical woman the character has dated. The comic books already toy with making Beast gay and he's sometimes written that way, so making him BI isn't as problematic as making say Cyclops gay given his relationships with Emma and Jean, etc.

I'm not sure Iris isn't a key character, although more people probably known Linda/Barry as a couple than they know Iris as Barry longtime girlfriend/wife unless they are Silver Agers.

I really don't give a shit, every piece of entertainment is trying to pander to someone. A character being black or gay isn't inherently going to stop me from enjoying something.

Do you mean Dean Cain and the New Adventures of Lois & Clark? He's part Islander, not truly Asian, I believe.

I like Bat Woman, I like Maggie Sawyer. I wasn't crazy about them dating but it wasn't awful.
I really like Forge, and I'd like to see him pop up in more than "Q" like here's your special gadget that you will find useful for this particular mission cameos.
I never liked Static UNTIL I read the comics then the show kind of retroactively became pretty good to me.
Used to like Cage, but he's kind of falling off.
Danica is my favorite Flash but that might just be because she was never in enough to have really unlikable moments.

>when does it start to bug you?
When:
1) They take a long established character and warp him only to make him "progressive" and nothing else (instead of make a new character)
or
2) A diverse character is introduced and all the shit begin to gravitate around him/her/whatever and how his "diversity" is the biggest thing after sliced bread

I've never given a shit about it.

When they change iconic characters races clearly just to fill some quota, that's when I'll usually have a problem. If they're originally gay or lesbian or whatever, that's fine. Otherwise, either create a new character or search the lore and find them if you must. Spectacular Spider-Man handled that great in that every character was someone pulled straight from the comics.

Speaking of Spectacular, Liz Allan is one of the only race changes I've seen that didn't feel forced as hell. Maybe it's because she was still a good character and all the more iconic characters retained their classic looks.

Just posting Sif

Damnation and tarnation

Dude's birth name is Dean Tanaka. He's like half-Japanese.

The problem is, marketing directs viewership in movies pretty goddamn heavily, to the point that it can make a shitty movie churn money. "Letting the work speak for itself" gets arthouse films that are fucking great but largely ignored. On the other hand, marketing looking to push "diversity" as an end of itself winds up in the watered down crap we have now. There is no easy answer to anything in art, omae, because folks have crap taste.

To be fair, I think some it was folks who wanted the Heimdall from the Simonson run of Thor getting pissy that they just got Some Black Dude. Simonson's Heimdall was fucking dope.

To be fair, I'd actually be pissy if Midnighter was rebooted as straight, so I do suppose I care about his sexuality. That he's a hyperviolent gimp fetishist faggot superhero is fucking absolutely wonderful and no one can take that from me.

Is a simplistic little holier than thou cunt.

>/co isn't representative of most/all fans

Why are you so fuckin' sure of that notion?

I think a hell of a lot of folks are. Personally, I think it will be critically panned from hell to here, but it'll still turn a profit from hyperpolitical cunts going to suffer through it.

>There's no reason you cannot make a character who is a legacy character gay.

There is also no reason to. It reaks with shallow, poor attention begging.

The Falcon as written/drawn by Kirby. I actaully like him better than Cap in Madbomb especially.
I also like Lee/Kirby Black Panther.

I don't try to stay current- I just read what interests me so inclusion doesn't ever really piss me off.

>Is /co really okay with minority/LGBT characters?

I am. Can't speak for anyone else.

> Like when does it start to bug you?

It doesn't. Better to make stupid decisions striving to be more inclusive than make stupid decisions trying to exclude people.

>And when does it feel like pandering?

People who complain about "pandering" are usually just upset they're suddenly not the only ones being marketed to.

To be fair, we have NO idea how Asgardian genetics work. They could be like cats and have the potential for wide varieties of coloration within single families.

I'd be ok with racebends if there were to any other race but black. It's always white to black...where are the East/South Asians and Latinos?
Latinos are a larger percentage of the US population so shouldn't there be more of them than blacks?

>People who complain about "pandering" are usually just upset they're suddenly not the only ones being marketed to.

Or they're just sick of shitty fucking agenda focused writing, but go on with your fucked up hateful assumptions.

Shit like that is why Trump will win.

It isn't always black but people just bitch about it more when its black

You're right, my bad - for some reason I thought he was Samoan:

"He is of French Canadian, Irish, Japanese, and Welsh descent"

I can't come up with any significant character, that I've read about. I'm sure they exist somewhere, but they seem to be swept under the rug pretty well.

I'm gay myself, so obviously I wouldn't mind a LGBT character, if the emphasis is on the >>CHARACTER

>I can't come up with any significant character, that I've read about.

Then you don't fucking read comics or watch cartoons.

To specify: Midnighter is a pretty old goddamn character that spent years plowing a Superman expy up the ass and is cooler than your faggot self could ever imagine.

wasn't there a massive bitching when that black guy from the runaways turned out to be evil and died? I guess the black audience is just more vocal about having "representation" in comics

I'm black and the only bitching I saw about that was a shitposting thread here a few days ago.

I was mad at that reveal but only because Alex was my favorite and then he turned out to be a right bastard.

i just hate random changes to long lasting characters - alan scott annoyed the shit out of me. iceman, etc. just write a decent character, don't appropriate old ones. thats when it feels like pandering or forcing something.

the falcon is ok, but its weird having two 'caps'

does the falcon need to take that name to be equal?

The worst of all changes: changes because a little group of people who never gave a damn want it to change.

"isn't representative of most/all fans"

>Why are you so fuckin' sure of that notion?

Because /co is a website. If it were something everyone who posted on /co was forced to spend an hour each day on and to reply to posts they made or to threads, then it still wouldn't be representative in exactly the same way that voters in any election aren't representative.

Voters on any election day only represent a portion of registered voters for any particular locale. Registered voters only represent a portion of a population in any particular locale.

Likewise, let's say their are 100 million fans in the world interested in action films, cartoons, books and so forth featuring super-heroes. Let's say 90 million have internet access. Let's say half of them are on-line at the moment, so 45 million. Let's say Sup Forums is visited by 50 million people a day. Let's say /co is among the most popular boards on Sup Forums, so let's say some 12-15 million people are visiting it.

It still a fraction of what would be on line that would care. And even if all of them were on line and all of them were on /co (never even possible much less likely), casuals/GA account for 75% or more of most viewers for live action of this type and books of this type. The only case where the audience here might be more representative is purely in comic books themselves.


It's simple statistics, probability and math.

Yeah, I admit that I almost never watch cartoons, and I follow very limited amount of titles, and almost exclusively DC.

When it doesn't feel like it's being forced. Casually introducing a character who's black and gay in the story. Sure, I'm down for that. Announcing on Twitter about your new character and how excepting you are? Go fuck yourself. Also, same rules that apply for Mary Sues. Don't write them off ass. "OMG, LOOK AT HOW AWESOME I AM! GAY POWERS!" And people constantly bring up the fact that their a minority as something "super cool for the team." or "How brave of you." It pulls us out of the suspension of disbelief so much.

>How accepting you are*

Is ok changing when the character's race/sexual orientation doesn't mean shit on his history or development

Like black Kingpin, Nick Fury, Heimdall or Ben Urich

But you can't turn Jonny Storm black, the same way you can't turn T'challa or Sam Wilson or Luke Cage white

I mean, I would be ok with a black daredevil, but not a black Danny Rand

I would be ok with a white Monica Rambeau, but not a white Ororo

But that's good writing, innit? I'm crackerjack as they come and was torn up by that same reveal. Because Alex was fucking dope up until then.

Honestly, I don't really mind. A lot of my favorite heroes that were conceived/debuted in the 21st century are ethnic or sexual minorities.

The only thing that got me is that it seemed like a shitton of high profile superheroines were getting into relationships with black guys. Half Z-list black superheroes, half literal nobodies just introduced to be the love interest.

Like one or two, whoever, would've been fine, but there's a point where, and I hate to sound all Sup Forumsfaggy, but it comes off as fetishistic.

Alan Scott is the one I thought was fine because it made sense to me (why not fold in an element from his kid if his kid can't exist because of deaging?). Felt less like pandering at least and more like typical comic logic and newer characters influencing old ones. Similar to when they use stuff from Wally's run in the Flash TV show for Barry.

Oh it was a great reveal and I'd never claim otherwise.

But Alex was mah nigga, you know?

This only proves that there's a fraction of fans responding, not that it's not representative. But feel fry to try again, bitch boy.

There's no reason you could not, for exampe, turn one of the Robins gay or bi. You're right, doing it to Bruce or Clark, would be problematic, although you didn't hear anyone scream when Morrison suggested that the Amazons in his Earth One book for Wondy were same sex lovers or that Diana had a girlfriend (although this had already been suggested way more subtly and slightly in the GA books). What most of the issue is is homophobia among male readers.

They could deal with Dinah being gay/bi or Star Girl say, but not Hal or Oliver (just as with all the problems with the Earth 2 Green Lantern).


Relationships are part of what makes a legacy character interesting. Alfred has an established fan base that like his interactions with Bruce and the Robins. That doesn't mean that they would support an on-going title featuring just his back story, but they would complain if all of sudden the Bat books were just ALL action and ALL crime-fighting sans Alfred, for just one example. Likewise, Clark with the Daily Planet stuff, Lois, Jimmy, etc.

You're right, I'm also gay and I wouldn't want DC to write a gay Bruce and Clark, unless it was done as say Earth 11 and a mini, but I've no problem with them saying, for example, that Damian is bi-sexual as they move forward with his characterizations.

All of these characters, from nearly every publisher no matter how indie, are straight because that's what their writers/artists know, that's who the predominant fan base was expecting when they were first written, and that was what was allowed when they were developed under the comics code, etc. etc.

Putting minorities or females or trans etc under the mask of a known hero is like telling em that their specific group is shit that nobody would read if they go on a Original/new character.
They must be shielded by a known IP cause minorities/women/etc are uninteresting/crap

Fuck, give em a new face and care for that new character, instead of "lets make hero A,B,C into a black/latino/muslim/gay/trans etc"

(yeah i know, a new IP is risky, while using a knwon IP is less risky monetary wise)

>bitch boy
by it's nature, it's not representative, asswipe boy.

Do you even know what fractions represent in math, or are you simple as idiotic and stupid as it appears?

>although you didn't hear anyone scream when Morrison suggested that the Amazons in his Earth One book for Wondy were same sex lovers or that Diana had a girlfriend

Maybe that's because right from the get-go Wonder Woman was a femdom sex fantasy that wasn't particularly discerning about the gender of her foes? Nah, that's too fucking subtle, it has to be MALE HOMOPHOBIA!

I literally do not care. Seeing people of other races do stuff on tv does not bother me in the slightest. Sup Forums's obsession with tumblr, on the other hand, got old fast.

>(yeah i know, a new IP is risky, while using a knwon IP is less risky monetary wise)
If you get it then what's the problem? It's a business, it's always been a business.

It doesn't really bug me because it is nothing new. It has happened already in the 90s, where characters were replaced with their more edgy counterparts. But guess what, eventually everything returned to status quo. The same thing is happening now, just with LGBT/minority counterparts. Mark my words, it will go away. Might take some time, but things will always come back to what they ought to be.

Alex was fucking everyone's goddamn nigga because he was playing everyone, including the reader.

I just can't get over how cool that character was, in the end.

yeah, but why pretend it is for the sake of being inclusive when its only for the dosh?

Hulkling and Wiccan aren't bad.

There's something about the ridiculousness of their situation juxtaposed against the normalcy of their relationship that works for me.

pretending to be inclusive is also part of making money

...Really, user? "It's always been this way, so it's good"? And applied to your corporate masters, no less?

Jesus christ, if you don't have a direct monetary stake in Marvel's continued success, that's so retarded it hurts.

More bisexual characters who aren't defined by promiscuity pls, but anything as good as Midnighter's latest run will make me happy