Are they French or German?

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upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/French_borders_from_985_to_1947.gif
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsatian_dialect
nytimes.com/1975/07/22/archives/alsace-though-french-first-is-stressing-special-identity-and.html
youtube.com/watch?v=ORZzo2KVKug
youtu.be/DidypOGFtqo?t=5m27s
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goralenvolk
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

Germans that were assimilated by the French.

They are Alsatians.

Reminder that Germans will say this about literally every single people on the planet

Assimilated Germans.
Real French people are actually a minority, the majority of the people in the country have been assimilated into the French identity under a highly centralised government and education process over the past 500+ years

That's incredible that Europeans fall into this German propaganda.

Alsace was in France for 200 years when Germany was formed and started pretending that Alsace was somehow German because they speak a Germanic language.

Remember that other part of France have Germanic roots, and nobody pretend they are Germans.

Once and for all Germanic doesn't mean German.

Just a food for thought :

-Alsace was integrated with France around 1650
- Savoy was integrated in French empire in 1860.

Yet nobody pretend people from Savoy are something else than French? Why this difference? Because of the German nationalist propaganda campaign that started in the 19th century.

Also why don't people say that Switzerland is German as well?

based vietposter telling the truth

Real french people are gauls and they're everywhere in this country.

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/French_borders_from_985_to_1947.gif

French speaking was not a requirement to be called French until the 20th century.
French people were speaking their own regional language. Alsatian is just one of them.

Gaelic =/= French
Not if they dont speak the language.
The idea of modern Germany in the eyes of Otto Von Bismarck is a nation encompassing all German speaking territories (excluding the Swiss and Austrians for political reasons), the inhabitants of Alsace are not only "Germanic" but they speak the language too and therefore belong to it rather than France

>The idea of modern Germany in the eyes of Otto Von Bismarck is a nation encompassing all German speaking territories (excluding the Swiss and Austrians for political reasons), the inhabitants of Alsace are not only "Germanic" but they speak the language too and therefore belong to it rather than France

That confirm exactly what I said. This is German propaganda. Germans started calling themselves Germans at a time when Alsaciens were calling themselves French for 2 centuries already.

why does nobody ever give france shit for being expansionist bullies up until germany became a state and started whooping their asses?

Alsatian is a German dialect.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsatian_dialect

Because everyone likes the evil Germany meme

Nobody pretended something else Hans.

What I tell you is that German nation was built on language, while France was built on something else... and that at the time it was not a requirement to speak french to be french.

>Alsaciens were calling themselves French for 2 centuries already.
Proof? You make this redundant argument because they were under French control when before that it was under the control of the HRE, the situation is similar to South Tyrol in Italy.

they are an oppressed German people, this is without any doubt

Germans.

Yes it is you fucking idiot, France was home to multiple languages but they were wiped out.

>Basedtugal

Read this article : nytimes.com/1975/07/22/archives/alsace-though-french-first-is-stressing-special-identity-and.html

You will understand better how Alsatians feel. They always claimed that there are french, despite speaking a Germanic language.

After the conquest by Germany, a lot felt abandoned. Yet the main motication for french soldiers to go to war in 11914 was the reconquest of Alsace. Do you think they would have died for Alsace if it was just considered a German territory that happened to be controlled by France at some point?

They are both.
Or neither, depends on how you want to put it.

France is literally killing the last traces of the Frankish language in France.

Good job at ignoring my points, I don't give a fuck why dumb Frogs went to war.
Also the only reason the people of Alsace have developed a special identity is because of time, they've been under French rule for far too long you'll see the same happen with South Tyrol eventually if the Austrians don't get it back

I wish the 2nd reich was still alive :-(

My parents always told me «We’re not French», as children they spoke «german» at home and learned french at school, where any non-french language was forbidden.
So I can understand them

>France expands its territory ignoring ethnic and cultural lines
>"umm sweetie, akshully French identity isn't based on language, it's umm something else... OK?"
>Germany tries to unite its people under one flag based on linguistic and cultural ties
>"REEEEEEE fucking Germans, why are they such expansionist aggressors??!!"

This thread is a joke. Germanboos just spam their shit as always.
Alsace and Lorraine are one of the most nationalist area of France, each elections, right and right parties are in the head. And you asking if they are German ? What a joke.
They didn't even have serious independantist parties like Corsica.

>Reminder that Germans will say this about literally every single people on the planet

go there and see by yourself, even their surnames are still German

They've been french for centuries, larping as germans because of muh heritage won't change this

>dumb frogs
Die.

Gentle reminder

South Tyrol will remain italian

Everyone is (x)ianised Germans to Germans.
Poles are Slavicized Germans.
Scandinavians are wandering Germans.
etc

If you say so, monsieur

nah for real, they have common german surnames you could find right of the rhine, too

...

>Yet nobody pretend people from Savoy are something else than French? Why this difference?
Savoy has always been French-speaking and was regarded as non-italian even by Turin itself, the fact that you fail to recognize this very basic thing and yet have the guts to rant so much about the issue says a lot.

Alsace spoke a German dialect and is ethnically German (and no, Griezmann is not a French surname). Your whole arguments wouldn't be so retarded if you didn't completely deny the german core identity of Alsace. The fact that they decided to identify more with France, due to historical reasons, has nothing to do with the fact that Alsatians are ethnically, linguistically and culturally German.

Also the whole
>muh 150 year old Italy and Germany maymay
is ridiculous to the core, the national identity of both was forged way before their national unification.

>1923 revolt
Can't find anything

what's the french ethnicity? the german ethnicity?

One is ethnically French if it's descendants of people coming from a region whose local language is considered a variation of French or a lower register of it (i.e. Occitan and Arpitan are included, Flemish, Corsican and Breton are not). Nice is a special case since the population was pretty much substituted.

Of course one may use the more politicised definition (i.e. all the people of France) but it is of little use.

Since Catalan is basically Occitan, can we claim Catalonia?

Good question.

Why not? You already have a good chunk of it anyway.

Macht Elsaß wieder Duetschland ! :D

>Catalonia
>Andorra
>Channel islands
>Québec
>some parts of New Brunswick
>Louisiana
Time for Panfrancism

You gotta gib back Corsica and Nizza before.

>linguistically

Not anymore. France is just too good at language erasing. Spain, Germany and even Italy aren't half as good doing this.

Gaelic =/= Gaulish

learn your shit, John

Actual alsatian here
They are french and they feel french. They really don't like being called germans.
They are Gauls like the rest of France. Saying they are german because they speak a germanic language would be like saying french people are italian because they speak a romance language.

Alsace has only been german for 43 years, compared to 200+ years of french. And by the way, "Alsace-Lorraine" was only annexed by the german empire to be used as a glacis against a potential french aggression after the franco-prussian war.

great post

>Saying they are german because they speak a germanic language would be like saying french people are italian because they speak a romance language.
Alsatian is a german dialect, not just a regular germanic language. So no, not really.

the difference between a dialect and a language is thin

you have been part of the HRE from 925–1648.

It really isn't in this case. We could argue whether the Dutch are German since the concept of "Germany" is basically "Continental West Germanic", but there's no doubt about the fact that Alsatian is a dialect, language, whatever you want to call it, that comes from High German, which is the basis of nowadays Standard German.
You may call it germanic language, but saying it as implying that the connection between Alsatian and German is as weak as that between Swedish and German is just deceitful and using you own buzzwords, propaganda.

barely a country
the region was mostly controlled by the Décapole anyway

uh, I never tried to deny the similitude between alsatian and german

They're French and so is the Rhine. Give back Frankish clay.

but they're french now

>muh HRE

Hahaha

>Saying they are german because they speak a germanic language would be like saying french people are italian because they speak a romance language.
Unless you were implying that French is a dialect of Italian, you did.

>Corsica
doubt.mp3
>Nice
I'll give you my Aoste (Mont Blanc peak side included) for your Nice.

poor choice of words from me
Alsatian is really close from german, i don't say the contrary

They don't even want to be part of Italy

We will take everything all the way to the Po plain and you will thank us for it

give all the occitan clay now

maybe corsica does ? i think

No, some of them just want independence. Just like the Québécois : they want independence, they don't want to be part of France.

As a left-Rhiner myself, that's a bit cringy desu.
Sure we have some genetic ties to you (being mostly Germanised "Gauls") as well as a very few cultural ones (wine dominates over beer, some loanwords in the dialects from Republican/Napoleonic times) but that's about it (rest of the culture is clearly more Germanic than Italic, you won't find those weird pyramidal roofs here, and olives are rarely grown, etc etc).
Pic muh village, does that look like Italy, Spain or something? Not really imo
Ask anyone here and 99% will want to remain where we are
But if we do some alt-hist and assume Mélac and Napoleon hadn't been such massive dickheads, we could have joined in the end

we take southern italy and you take the white parts of sweden which means all of sweden except stockholm and malmö.

you dont deserve the KARA BOGA italians

Then why are you so slow to giving Berlin and Frankfurt away to the true heirs? Go there and see by yourself, even their surnames are still Arabic

Irrelevant, Corsican is a disgusting italian dialect and shall be substituted with refined Standard Italian
Honestly I would be ok if you just annexed the whole country 2bh
I doubt they do. About the occitan clay, meh, whatever. I doubt they speak it a lot nowadays anyway.

We're Low German though, but we don't see ourselves as HochDeutsch or Merkel's German. Even our national church was called Nederduitsche Hervormde Kerk. Frankish was a German race and therefore the Dutch must be German as well.

Come home gaulish winedrinker
The germanic has tricked you
Lothaire’s share belong to West Francia the one and only Francia

>Pic muh village, does that look like Italy, Spain or something?
what does it have to do with spain or italy

is it fucking hebrew on the pyramid what the hell

Yeah I know, that's why I referred to Western Germanic in general etc.etc.

>hebrew in a religious image of a jewish religion
Oh no

i wish the british empire was still alive

There just has been a semantic shift of the word "deutsch" and its variations over the last centuries. For the most time it was just a self-identifier for all continental West Germanic speakers, nowadays it's restricted to BRD-inhabitants
B-but I'm a Celto-Germanic mutt (1.90m, dark blonde, green eyed and broad skull) so I can't decide
>tfw neither North nor Southern Euro
Overall I just view France as a more Southern-Euro/Med place, mostly similar to those two (at least everything south and west of about Dijon)

>Corsican is a disgusting italian dialect
you what m8
youtube.com/watch?v=ORZzo2KVKug

Which country is enlighten?

youtu.be/DidypOGFtqo?t=5m27s
They literally talk like redneck italians, songs don't count.

>Overall I just view France as a more Southern-Euro/Med place
uh, you're aware that france is spanning from north to south, right ? it doesn't start below the loire

yes, it is how we write "God"

Don't forget this en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goralenvolk
t. Silesian (oh, I am actually german too acc. to krauts)

*gets expelled*

you killed or drove out your german neighbors long ago

ACTUAL actual Alsatian here. We're actually Alemannic. The Hans from earlier is on point though, the difference between Elsass and anything west of (or even inside) the Schwarzwald is not very noticeable, we even have tarte flambées (the actual name for that "flammenkuech" tourist trap) on both sides.
The thing is older generations hate Germany because of WW2 and this naturally removed any bad thing France did from the collective minds. Although to be fair, my hometown was fully destroyed except for 2 houses (I doubt the French are innocent in that part but they were clearly not the one who moved there with tanks first). So the Germans too should stay in their shitty country (except the ones from Baden Wurttemberg).

>each elections, right and right parties are in the head
Yeah although this doesn't specifically mean what you think it means.

Also about Alsatian being a German dialect, if you look further it's actually closer to Swiss German than Hochdeutsch.

Another funny thing about "the" Alsatian dialect is that it doesn't really exist (I assume it's since there has never been the need to write official documents in it), moving 10km away will not only lead to very different pronunciations but sometimes even grammar or the meaning of words might change.