Hey, we talk a lot about diversity in Sup Forums a lot of it is shitposting but almost all of it is about the characters and not the people behind it.
so I was wondering how does it look behind the scenes? have the companies that have proudly declared themselves having diversity actually have a diverse group of employees working for them?
mm the only artist I care about that would be diverse is Sara Pichelli and Olivier Coipel at least from marvel side.
But there is probably more I don't read much superhero comics anymore, don't you know they are shit?
There's a lot of women in comics now compared to like 10 years ago atleast, which is good. But some of those women are Kate Leth-- which is awful.
As far as racial diversity it's shit and it will probably always be shit. I don't have it in me to care about a creator just because they're black and I'm black, I do respect McDuffie tho, even if I wasn't impressed by any of his creations really.
My biggest gripe is the concept of you having to be a specific race to work on a specific character. That being said I'm enjoying the fuck out of Priest's Panther run even though he feels like Marvel's Batman.
Hmmm. sooo diverse.
>white male liberal faggot only need apply
They're big guys
Not for them
What's so great about diversity that it has to supersede merit?
>What's so great about diversity that it has to supersede merit?
Nothing
that is the point
hey, op here I just asked this question out of curiosity and I think it's a question worth asking not because I think we need to replace good writers with other people because of their color that's stupid.
but to be honest now it's not like the writers we have now does a good job
Diversity doesn't preclude merit.
>album drops next week
>What's so great about diversity that it has to supersede merit?
Nothing. What's so great about homogeny that it being threatened equates to a loss in quality in your mind?
Okay, show me an example where diversity was taken into consideration and wasn't a primary factor that overtook merit.
>Jenette Kahn: There were very few women in the field when I joined. And, of course, anxiety and horror washed through the DC halls when it was known that I'd been hired. After all, I was in my twenties, from outside the industry and (shudder) a girl. The perception - and I'm sure it was equal part wish -was that I'd be gone in a year.
>But, of course, I stayed. The learning curve was hard not just because there was so much to understand about the comic book industry but also because DC was part of a large corporation with its own culture and politics and protocol. And, although I think we're relatively free of politics now, DC was rife with them when I came and they were made all the worse by my presence. Lines were drawn and people took sides.
>All that, happily, is ancient history. Even in my first five years at DC, the most difficult of times, I found wonderful people to work with: Joe Orlando, Dick Giordano and Paul Levitz, then a 19-year old part-time assistant editor and for years now my most valued colleague. There were people like Karen Berger whom we hired during that time for whom I have not only the greatest respect but deep, abiding affection. People like Andy Helfer, always on the hip tip and a topnotch editor who cheerfully refuses to be domesticated. And, of course, as time went by we added more and more wonderful people until at least half the staff was female and we had a mix of ethnic backgrounds, too.
>Diversity doesn't preclude merit.
But it usually ends up that way
Nigga in the op dumbass
quoted the wrong person it was meant for him
I agree in some sense that anyone can write about a character from any race but I won't lie knowing that Captain America: Sam Wilson book that had a heavy focus on racism and black culture was weird knowing it was written by Nick Spencer.
(should be important i only read like the first and latest issue and a few articles about it)
Maybe if you shut up and read the thread instead of being an attention whore you'll find some.
How the hell would I know? I don't have backroom access to production meetings.
All I'm saying is someone can be hired for diversity and also have talent. The idea that someone has to be hired for pure merit is silly because that means different things to different people.
There's no objective "Talent Meter" we can all check to see if someone objectively deserves a job.
>muh buzzword of 'diversity' makes everything better! anyone who says otherwise is just crazy!
k
>There's no objective "Talent Meter" we can all check to see if someone objectively deserves a job.
That's the entire purpose of the hiring process. Having diversity for the sake of diversity is not a good thing and is flat out demeaning.
this dude did this
does that count?
>There's no objective "Talent Meter" we can all check to see if someone objectively deserves a job.
For comics there is, it's "Can this person send in their work on time, work well with others, and sell enough books to not get cancelled."
...
>That's the entire purpose of the hiring process.
Since when, retard?
If you weren't a NEET ass nigga you'd know jobs have interviews instead of just randomly selecting CVs and telling them they're hired, because qualifications are more than just what you can do.
Hudlin's dumb ass on a book doesn't mean that they passed on Neil Gaiman any more than Greg Land on a book means they passed on James Stokoe.
>thrashers
If this was made now it wouldn't be about skateboards to keep things current, instead it'd be black guys playing the knockout game and be shown as heroes for it.
>Since when, retard?
>The entire interview process is not about determining ones skills, showing their previous work and determining if they are the most qualified for the job
I don't even know where the fuck to go with this conversation anymore.
>Having diversity for the sake of diversity is not a good thing and is flat out demeaning.
well i would agree that diversity alone isn't a merit to go with i would say including talent and diversity isn't a bad thing. why shouldn't one include an asian artist or a black writer into the company. especially when job criteria isn't as objective as you are trying to paint it up as.
>The entire interview process is not about determining ones skills, showing their previous work and determining if they are the most qualified for the job
Are you actually retarded or have you just got out of school for summer?
>CVs don't list skills, previous work, and qualifications
It's the most objective way user!
If they don't look at the person they're hiring we can be sure they're not just being hired because they're a nigger or have tits!
None of that pesky memeversity!
wtf are you guys even talking about since when did marvel hire writers and artist through interviews everyone know it's through pitches and art blogs.
For all that everyone's praising Marvel, DC actually has the more diverse roaster of artists/writers.
Are you legitimately arguing that skills, qualifications, education and previous work (and if you're going for an actual job you'll be asked to demonstrate that work as well) are not a part of the hiring process?
>things that were never said
Nice strawman.
rebirth stream showed us who's working on their new stuff of 26 guest they had 4 of them where woman (all white) 1 black guy and 2 asian guys.
still seems more diverse than what marvel have if earlier post is true.
>Are you legitimately arguing that skills, qualifications, education and previous work (and if you're going for an actual job you'll be asked to demonstrate that work as well) are not a part of the hiring process?
not the same user but for comics all that's actually matter is earlier work and how fast you are. how do you think we got squirrel girl.
I don't give a shit about diversity honestly. I just want good, interesting stories with good ideas and good characters. If it happens to include or star diverse characters, then that's fine. Great stories are what really matter.
I'm Indian and I wanna become a comic book writer someday but that's not really important here
Nothing, but literally anything would be better than the shit liberal white numale clusterfuck that's running the show now.
A vote for diversity is a vote against Bendis. Remember that.
>things that were never said
You responded to a post that said that interviews were superfluous to a hiring process based on 'objectivity' because of the existence of CVs by saying that interviews did exactly what a CV does.
So either you're a retard (my top guess) or you don't know what's in a resumè, either way the response was appropriate, summerfag.
Go get your GED homeboy, we all believe in you.
>paranoia about 'diversity hires'
This industry is really subjective. You could be the most talented writer ever and get shit sales or vice versa. Worrying about whether someone was hired to fill some unenforced quota is the least of the industry's problems.
Civil War 2 may be bombing but Bendis is still one of the top-selling writers, he's not getting pushed out in favor of a diversity-hire who can't even come close to matching him in sales much less exceeding (except Coates who's only temporary and possibly a passing phase)
Okay, here's DC's Rebirth, writers and artists:
Javi Fernandez
Marcus To
Jonboy Meyers
Francis Manapul
Jorge Jimenez
Dexter Soy
Bernard Chang
Jim Lee
Christopher Priest
Carlo Pagulayan
Felipe Watanabe
John Semper, Jr.
Hope Larson
Julie Benson
Tula Lotay
Amanda Conner
James Tynion IV
Steve Orlando
Also, DC will have the first black female writer in the Big Two debut with a Suicide Squad one-shot in August, I think.
why do people always bring this up when we talk about diversity in a non objective industry that is comic book industry? no shit bashing on you user but why do people bring this up like good comics will get challenged if we have diversity. It's not like marvel or dc was good when it's only white dudes.
I have never seen a year when all comics from a company have been consistently good and everyone behind it was white, and I have never seen it happen when it's super diverse.
Diversity shouldn't actually give a different in quality only maybe a different in what content we will see.
btw
I hope you reach your goals user. I want to become a comic book artist myself
Not Bendis-the-guy, Bendis the idea.
That whole race of Joss Whedon-lites who can only write 22 year olds with the dialogue of what teenagers talked like in 2002, and believe that because they can write a badly written generic "muh angst" female character they've proven their worth to SJWs.
Fucking anything would be better than that, even if every fucking comic book line was "WE WUZ KANGZ".
And yet Marvel fails both diversity and quality. Huh.
>that said that interviews were superfluous to a hiring process based on 'objectivity' because of the existence of CVs
Okay, lets look at the first mention of CVs and interviews.
>you'd know jobs have interviews instead of just randomly selecting CVs and telling them they're hired
>this post specifically says that interviews have a purpose and that nobody just picks up 'random CVs and telling them they're hired'
>You're now trying to say that the entire points of interviews is superfluous
I think we can move on now, there's nowhere for this conversation to go.
>>Also, DC will have the first black female writer in the Big Two debut with a Suicide Squad one-shot in August, I think.
Most Wanted: Boomerang & El Diablo?
Yeah, the issues featuring Amanda Waller are written by Vita Ayala.
>Also, DC will have the first black female writer in the Big Two debut with a Suicide Squad one-shot in August, I think.
I want to say this is bullshit, but I have no proof. It just sounds weird.
Are you seriously retarded? The argument was against objectivity, interviews are not objective. If hiring WERE objective then interviews would be superfluous.
And we should have stopped this conversation a long ass time ago but I didn't realize I was going to have to spend an hour explaining how jobs work.
>SUICIDE SQUAD MOST WANTED: EL DIABLO AND BOOMERANG #1 begins a new monthly six-issue mini-series on August 10th featuring a lead story starring El Diablo written by Jai Nitz and a series of shorter second features by writers graduating from the just-completed inaugural class of DC’s Writers Workshop. Issues 1-2 will feature Boomerang (SUICIDE SQUAD MOST WANTED: EL DIABLO AND BOOMERANG) by Michael Moreci, issues 3-4 will feature Killer Croc (SUICIDE SQUAD MOST WANTED: EL DIABLO AND KILLER CROC) by Chris Sebela and issues 5-6 will feature Amanda Waller (SUICIDE SQUAD MOST WANTED: EL DIABLO AND AMANDA WALLER) by Vita Ayala.
This is Vita Ayala:
dccomicstalentworkshop.com
People keep saying that Marvel talks about diversity but doesn't hire diverse creators, but every time it's about writers. Marvel has a lot of artists that are not white men or whatever.
I know it's hip to shit on Marvel and praise DC when it comes to this, but at least try to be objective. Both companies employ diverse creators, it's just that most of them are artists and not writers.
Yea, that's not the part I have a problem with, just the fact that she's the first black female writing. I feel we've had one before, but I just can't remember.
>Also, DC will have the first black female writer in the Big Two debut with a Suicide Squad one-shot in August, I think.
holy fuck that can't be true.
>interviews are not objective
>The entire purpose of the interview process is to ascertain someones skills, qualifications and how well they'd fit into a company.
>You see, I meant something else entirely to what I actually said!
How are you even able to breathe on your own?
...
well I am pointing them out where I see them and again Olivier Coipel one of the greatest in comic books right now works almost exclusively for marvel is a black french man.
oh and also Ron Wimberly while a excellent artist works best on his own books
I don't think there's been one before in the Big 2, but then again, I just parroted what I read in an article, the author might have been mistaking for all I know. But I honestly can't think of anyone.
>tfw no "fix my comic" show with thse guys as hosts
That also reminds me that we will never have a strip search season 2
All in all, DC currently has 8 women on their pay roll:
twitter.com
Two different people said both of those things, son.
Protip: Not everyone named Anonymous is he same person.
Most of the big companies are trying to to appeal to the whole diversity thing because it's the hip thing and they're profit oriented. If it were more than just lip service they'd do stuff beyond just parrot social justice 101, insert the occassional minority, and actually hire people beyond whatever they usually do.
Honestly, I think it's dumb that social justice types look towards big companies for progressiveness instead of supporting small time creators that fit whatever minority they think is underrepresented or whatever. Big companies are just gonna play it safe.
For the record, I don't think diversity automatically equals good and there's a lot of pandering bullshit that focuses mostly on how much of a minority the characters are instead of anything actually interesting about them, but I think the existence of diversity that isn't just lip service is the sign of a thriving creative environment and comics could use some of that.
well the people you are consider to be 'sjw' are supporting the people they care about.
just look how many woman they are in the industry.
when it comes to race it's another thing.
It's not like they actually care.
I am racist, but I love Larry Stroman's works as well as "Chris Priest".
9, if you count Vertigo: Gail Simone.
Don't know if cover artists should count, but if they do, then Jenny Frison as well.
>first black female writer in the Big Two
>2016
What the fuck
I want to ask how one can be racist and still enjoy larry stroman and chris priest but i don't want to open that can of worms
I'm glad you asked. I am racist, because I believe that there is difference between the races, and also, because I prefer works of white people. Also, because I feel that Stroman and Priest feel more like an exception, rather than standard.
oh, and I have a huge distaste for the work of asian people, which is ironic, I know
Mind elaborating on what you like about white artists and why you don't like asain work?
>diversity
You mean black men and white women because lets be honest when people say diversity they just mean these 2 groups.
What the fuck ever happened to white women that they need to be put everywhere?
em..mm
I could be wrong but have you seen enough black artist work to say they are the expectation by fact and not just a bias feeling.
can't really say anything about the other points.
by saying asian work, I dislike the manga-esque style strongly, as well as the fetishes / fantasies they put in their comics. also, there is culture barrier, meaning that what is funny for japanese people (for example), is cringe for me (like poop jokes in "what's michael" for example)
white artists have this classic stylized art, and actually more diverse, rich with different approaches, and storytelling rooted in traditions and culture that is more familiar to mine. so obviously, I see them as superior
Yeah, okay, I did some research and there has been a black female writer before, though once again she worked for DC.
Felicia D. Henderson, though it's okay if you don't remember her, since she was pretty awful.
that's the thing, that there aren't many notable black artists, and frankly, I'm not really interested in them. and even Stroman's and Priest's have this distinct feel, especially Stroman's art that reminds me a little of tribal drawings? it falls under the "something exotic from time to time" category for me.
but then again, I said that I was racist.
you can't really complain when there was only white guys before.
artist seems to avoid diversity problem because good art seem easy to find everywhere. but somehow we still get shit like iron man and squirrel girl
I hate how diversity only means black.
Bendis is trying really hard to be black.
Hudlin.
>that reminds me a little of tribal drawings?
oh boy
>but then again, I said that I was racist.
yeah you sure did.
:^)
a) Black women are a minority
b) Most black women aren't into superhero comics
If we're talking about DC's LGBT writers/editors, there's also Phil Jimenez, Chris Conroy and Marguerite Bennett. Don't know if they've given Marc Andreyko anything in Rebirth yet.
which is a mistake, because it's the easier way to raise your profile and interest
>have the companies that have proudly declared themselves having diversity actually have a diverse group of employees working for them?
Nah.
Taking on work you have no interest in because it'll raise your name value just results in hackwork, see Joe Casey's Uncanny X-Men which he admitted was such.
What comic companies don't seem to understand is that if you make it so that only black writers can work on black characters, it makes black characters almost like a ghetto. If I was a black writer and I was told that I had to write Black Panther or Cyborg because we share the same skin color I would be fucking pissed.
but at least people know who Casey is
Honestly it's only Marvel that does that.
jews?
well, that's exactly what Priest felt
That's how DC snatched Priest for Rebirth. They allowed him to choose a character he wanted to write after he said he didn't want to be remembered as the black guy who only wrote black characters.
I don't want any damn shoehorned in diversity in the cast. Fucking loathe pandering.
Wouldn't mind stories set in rarely explored times and places though.
I'm sorry but I'm not sure if your arguing against or for my point.
>Diversity shouldn't actually give a different in quality only maybe a different in what content we will see.
that's a good point. I have nothing against diversity, either behind or on the page.
Diversity could be wonderful, bringing in new voices and stories and experiences and that's excellent for any storytelling medium. But I strongly disagree when it comes at the cost of story quality.
hey thanks a lot user. I wish you the best of luck bro. would you mind providing some info about your artwork? I'm always working on some comic or the other and I'm always on the lookout for artists
shit
this was meant for
i keep getting surprised by how tiny Jim Lee is.
not really have you guys seen captain america sam Willson?
it's like black power fantasy created by a white guy.
Diversity is only as good as the story / art is good.
Though they totally did offer him Cyborg at first, mind you.
of course, I wasn't refuting that