So this really seemed to upset people. That Batman stopped short of killing Superman when he asked Bats to save Martha.
They complain that the motivation is " Der my mum's name is yur mums name no kill!"
Am i the only one who took it as the surprise from hearing his mother's name come out of this alien's mouth shocking him into stopping short of murder? Something he didn't want to do in the first place? And then it was further defused when Lois showed up and started talking all this shit that humanized Superman.
That's how i saw it anyway
Caleb Thomas
The idea was that Batman viewed Superman as an alien monster, and in that moment he realized Superman is a normal person who loves his mother and that she was in danger, a situation that Batman alson identified with.
It was just really really poorly directed. Plus Batman's transition is excessively abrupt.
Also, I'll have to call bullshit on him not wanting to kill Superman deep down. He wanted it. He's a certified murderer in the Snyderverse.
Ayden Kelly
Ah i'm not sure he wanted it. I think it was a hard choice but once he made his mind up he got ready to do it right
Zachary Edwards
There's that, but it's also the fact that with Superman at his mercy and about to be killed, Supes is begging for his MOTHER'S life rather than his own.
I think it's a really great way to break Batman's preconceived notions and assumptions about Superman's fundamental character, but yeah the whole "WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAAAAAME" bit is pretty silly and breaks a lot of the tension in the moment.
>Also, I'll have to call bullshit on him not wanting to kill Superman deep down. He wanted it. He's a certified murderer in the Snyderverse.
As you say, Batman assumed he was alien and operating on alien morality that did not take into account the value of human life. Assuming that this alien morality makes a threat that is unable to be reasoned with, the only way to end that threat is to put it down through force. At the end of the movie, Bruce comes to see Superman (and really the other "metas" he finds through Lex's files and Wondy's help) as allies rather than threats to stopped.
Evan Edwards
He was enjoying it all the way through. He was even savoring the moment by ragdolling Superman and slashing his cheek first.
Juan Long
The only thing that scene made me think about was the fact that their mom's did share a first name. Like, pretty crazy stuff, bro, who would've thought that the two biggest heroes mothers share a first name. Pretty small world, huh?
Lincoln Sullivan
BvS basically plays Batman as a foil to Lex, mirroring Lex's own obsession with destroying Superman and callous disregard for anyone else that comes in between him and that goal.
Matthew Johnson
Travel back to 1939 and tell them not to make their mothers have the same name.
Bentley James
That doesn't mean he's not a murderer. He needlessly kills people throughout the movie, in cruel ways, even.
I tried to do a head count of how many people he directly kills, lost interest after I tallied 15 men and counting.
Leo Anderson
>Am i the only one who took it as the surprise from hearing his mother's name come out of this alien's mouth shocking him into stopping short of murder? Nah, there are plenty of other Potatoes in America.
Jonathan Wright
They didn't, Superman's mother was originally named "Sarah Kent". They changed it later.
Jonathan was also originally named "Eben".
Jason Stewart
Are you talking about Batman or Superman here?
Because yeah, Batman kills people that's one of the elements of his character in the movie, that he does not give a shit about the lives of the criminals he fights anymore. Remember that line about comparing them to "weeds"? He's so jaded about his mission to try and protect Gotham that it's shifted from that mission itself to "punish criminals" because he's convinced that nothing else he does has any positive effect on the world around him.
Jaxon Price
I guess it's just more fun to assume it was shitty writing than it is to spend two seconds thinking about it...
Landon Hall
>Something he didn't want to do in the first place? Batman spent the whole movie hellbent on killing Superman for no good reason.
Parker Rogers
Yet still hasn't killed his most murderous and pervasively criminal rogues.
How convenient. I suppose this only applies to nameless mooks and not his "special playmates".
Henry Stewart
>mfw Batman kills everyone BUT the Joker.
Noah White
It felt forced and unnatural. Here's this armored psycho totally enjoying beating superman to death suddenly stopped by a word. did he think aliens didn't have moms? It highlights the uncomfortable fact that the Snyder batman is mentally unwell even by batman standards and is in no way heroic.
He was gung ho on killing this guy on a suspicion, without even sitting down and hearing his side of the story, and the sudden realization that the alien has a mom stops him.
Did he think all those criminals he killed didn't have moms? I can't see any superhero not trying to lock up batman for being crazy.
Carson Morris
They tried to justify it, while also trying to excuse it, and it was rather poor, much like everything else.
Christian Turner
yeah turns out batman is crazy who knew lol
Owen Watson
>It never crossed Batman's mind that Superman could have a mother >the world's greatest detective didnt do any research on Superman at all, in the slightest >devoted years of his life to "thinking" about killing Superman and then it changes on a whim
Yeah no. This is shit writing.
Christopher Howard
Why the fuck would Clark say "Martha" instead of "my mom"?
Also, why the fuck should it matter what his mom's name is? If Darkseid tells Batman that his mom's name is Marthaseid, is Bats going to let him go?
Adam Russell
It's not that things aren't "explained" in Snyder films, it's that the explanations are incredibly fucking stupid.
Dominic Howard
That was such a stupid fight. Superman could have literally ended the battle anytime he wanted and forced Batman to listen.
Michael Perez
>lol why doesn't he just kill the Joker >why don't we just kill the single most popular villain Batman's Rogues Gallery
Yeah congratufuckinglations, here's a cookie for pointing out something that we've been complaining about in the comics for years.
Noah Fisher
Depends, has Batman been raped by this point?
Mason Perry
All this. All fucking this.
Who wants to bet Joker is still alive because he asked Batman to save Jonathan?
Charles Hall
Of course. But as always in these fight superman forgets that he has any ability beyond strongness
Matthew Sullivan
I agree.
The fact one second before Batman was shit-talking Superman's parents doesn't help the case.
Logan Perry
It's worth an extra complaint when it's no longer "No-Kill" Batman and is instead Punisherbats.
Adam Bell
It's so fucking dumb though. Just having Batman be able to murder Superman in like 4 minutes is so fucking terrible from a plot perspective that to have him stop literally as he's about to deliver the killing blow for any reason is about 35 times as terrible. You want Batman and Superman to fight? Whatever, I think that's dumb but I get that many Superhero team ups start with a fight. You want Batman out to stop Superman with murderous intent, whatever, I think that's dumb but I didn't write the film and it's not irredeemable. But to have it get to that point and end on that fucking note is just everything bad about that idea combined into the worst scene possible.
Xavier Roberts
He tried to talk Batman down, and then got hit by Kryptonite gas and it all went to shit because at that point he was fighting for his life.
And also "ending a battle by force" is something that Batman sure as hell would've interpreted as a a threat necessary for lethal force and then we'd be in the same problem.
That's where we disagree.
Jackson Morgan
Kek don't use Wikipedia it lies. Her original name was Mary Kent. Later redacted to Sarah then Molly then finally decided upon as Martha.
Gabriel Campbell
>Why the fuck would Clark say "Martha" instead of "my mom"?
That I can't excuse.
And it would've been so easy to have Superman instead ask Batman "save Martha Kent".
Makes Superman appear more selfless and gets the point across rather than his awkward attempt at guilt-tripping Batman.
Christopher Wilson
>is just everything bad about that idea combined into the worst scene possible.
Snyder is a master at this.
Connor Cox
I read it in a magazine, though.
Chase Gonzalez
You're wasting your time trying to educate Sup Forums shitposters about storytelling.
Hunter Collins
What's interesting is Lois figured out just about everything on Clark with less resources than Bruce so she's already his superior. Like seriously, Lois met Martha and everything. She went to the farm, she was at the graveyard, she went to that ship in the middle of nowhere. All this and she has none of Bruce's training, free time or luxury.
Of course the excuse could be that Bruce did not want to figure out these things and just wanted to focus on Superman as an enemy, but it still seems odd he wouldn't have some background check done to stumble upon the information for blackmail or a weakness or whatever.
Jacob Stewart
Is this an American thing? Most people call their mothers by their first name when they are an adult, especially their adopted mother.
Isaiah Gonzalez
Yes, Americans don't call their parents by their first names.
Brayden Torres
I don't. Most people I know don't.
I guess Supes was trying to protect his identity still.
Gabriel Reyes
>he was fighting for his life.
He really wasn't. He'd recovered to the point where batman's punches didn't even make him blink.
But then when he sees him loading another shot what does he do? Throw something? Heat vision? Maybe even zig zag a little?
Nah. Let's do a straight line right down his sights.
Fucking stupid
Logan Rogers
"This may be the only worthwhile thing I ever do." Yeah, the guy was REAL conflicted about killing him. "Do you bleed? You will..." Reeeeaaal conflicted.
Gabriel Parker
>He tried to talk Batman down, and then got hit by Kryptonite gas and it all went to shit because at that point he was fighting for his life.
Bullshit.
He escalated the fight by pushing Batman, throwing him through a fucking building and threatening his life.
It was stupid. Who'd guess the fucking Batman VS. Superman aspect of BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN would be the worst part of it.
Jonathan Jenkins
>tries to explain the situation >worlds greatest detective gasses him with death gas
Nolan batman was hardly a great detective but this was embarrassingly stupid.
I know a lot of people are upset Snyder missed the point of super's character but am I alone in thinking he did an even worse job with Batman?
Jack Gutierrez
>I think it was a hard choice but once he made his mind up he got ready to do it right
Angel Sanders
Oh man this scene, John just fucking disappears like a ghost. I wonder if he was screaming the whole time being flung around in the air while Clark listened or if he just closed his eyes and let the violence take him.
Joseph Campbell
because he probably was already in prison even in the news in the movie they say that his dark turn was a recent thing
Carter Martinez
it's not that they have the same name it's the fact that he said MARTHA like his father did before dying, in that moment Batman sees himself as Joe Chill killing a guy that has done nothing wrong
Caleb Sanchez
This is why Snyder cock-gobblers have zero credibility on this board.
They will literally rationalize ANYTHING that Snyder puts to film, no matter how intellectually acrobatic they have to be in the attempt.
Nothing in the DCEU is allowed to be anything less than brilliantly inspired Capekino.
Xavier Gomez
>Lois a better detective than Batman >Lois more calculating and better at planning than Batman
Can Snyderfags at least admit this was bullshit?
Austin Jones
No invincible son! You must not return to the car and get back in the blink of an eye! What if someone sees you and thinks you're super?! I will run into the storm because since i don't have powers no one will think i have powers!
Bam. Kent logic ftw
Christian Anderson
In this universe batman kills and Lois is a goddamn genius Deal with it
Luis Ward
Honestly, seeing all those explanations here surprises me, because to me that scene was just cringe worthy because there is absolutely NO WAY superman would have called her by her name at that moment giving batman a moment of doubt. No one says "I have to save Martha" they say "I have to save my mother" it just makes no god damn sense. It's like the writers gave up at that point. This is why any dialogue and plot development that developed from this seems off, because it's just so incredibly forced
Levi King
>without even sitting down and hearing his side of the story
maybe Superman should have tried talking normally the first time instead of crashing the batmobile and menacing Batman also the entire Flash appereance, where Batman sees a guy he never knew just to discover later on that he is one of the metahumans from the vids, telling him that he was right about being suspicious and all
Benjamin Phillips
>This universe is going to completely fall apart at the seams the minute they start making more films that don't have Batman all up in them Deal with it.
William Jones
>also the entire Flash appereance, where Batman sees a guy he never knew just to discover later on that he is one of the metahumans from the vids There is absolutely nothing connecting the man in red armor who appears in a portal in a dream to the speedy gonzales Batman sees buying milk.
Josiah Clark
um...ok...?
Kayden Edwards
Batman never forgets a young dark haired lad with dick-sucking lips. It's Cannon.
Angel Walker
I thought the scene was supposed to be Batman suddenly realizing he was the same as the guy that killed his parents, a murderer, because Superman saying "Martha" mirrored the last words of Bruce's dad.
Lucas Howard
What will happen when his Rogues Gallery discovers his Safe Word?
Dominic Russell
except the face
Easton Adams
Batman was completely obsessed with gaining the means to kill Superman, I'm not surprised he missed some clues obvious to someone looking in from thr other side.
Benjamin Davis
how was it forced and unnatural? it was a perfect play on Batman's core tenants as a character.
And he didnt particularly enjoying killing anyone, it was a recent change, and his whole arc was learning from Superman that he has to be better then the killing, which is why he doesnt kill Luthor in the end.
Austin Morgan
>They all legally change their names to Martha >Batman murders the notary in rage >Only to learn his name was Thomas
William Wilson
it only works if innocent people say it
Jacob Phillips
Ah I forgot to add the cherry on top, all that investigating Lois did? Before there was a Superman, she followed the leads of a nameless phantom influence and figured everything out to the point Clark had to show up to ask her to please stop. She wasn't even all that obsessed, just mildly interested.
Bruce had news stories upon news stories on Superman to start tracing a pattern of dates, names and places, his hunger for figuring out this thing and NOPE. Diddly.
Jose Hernandez
none of what you said makes any sense.
try re-reading the OP, he never says its kino or anything, just that he doesnt get why people hate the scene. And basically anyone is able to say here is "WELL ITS BAD CAUSE ITS BAD OR ITS BAD CAUSE IT DOESNT FIT WITH WHAT I THINK BATMAN SHOULD BE!"
Thomas Morris
And things that are easy to explain if you look at them in the full context of the movie and not in a vacuum will forever be shouted as "plotholes" by people like you. What's your point?
Christopher Sanders
Oh, well then. As long as we are playing to Batman's core tenets and not having him ENJOY killing everyone.
Aaron Jones
I meam, as long as he's not attempting to murder them, there's nothing they could say to cause him to stop. Plus, his reasoning for going after Clark was different than that of going after normal criminals, since they break the law, Clark was simply too powerful to let live, in his mind.
Zachary Long
>And he didnt particularly enjoying killing anyone
He has a Batmobile full of weapons and still thinks the best way to neutralize a car with enemies is to use another car with people inside as a battering ram, shattering their bones into dust, and crushing the other car with it.
Then later, AFTER his supposed "ephiphany", he still splatters a guy's brains on the wall with a box, caves a guy's skull into the floor and fatally stabs a man.
Batman didn't learn a damn thing.
Connor Hall
>Clark was simply too powerful to let live, in his mind. Sucks to be the Flash, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman and the rest, I guess.
Kevin Allen
Snyder's Batman is a murderer. Why the fuck would he even care? Its fucking stupid.
Noah Brown
no one of them destroyed half of Metropolis after luring an alien invasion on the planet
Mason Howard
BUT HE DIDN'T ENJOY IT!
I think it says in Buddhism that if you don't enjoy the act of killing, it doesn't count as killing. Or something.
Asher Cook
>killing criminals is bad
Henry Lee
Ummm, that was the whole point of the Martha thing.
Yeah, I wouldn't have done it that way, but it was supposed to be the moment when Batman saw he was going overboard.
He's not hunting super people simply for being super anymore
Colton Lee
So if tje SETI program attracts hostile aliens Batman will kill the scientists? What if one of them has a mother/sister/girlfriend named Martha?
Eli Carter
>I think it says in Buddhism that if you don't enjoy the act of killing, it doesn't count as killing. I'm pretty sure that's not in the precepts. Like 108% sure at least. If it's an accident it's not as bad, but you're still going to have to make up for that little mistake.
Nathaniel Reed
>but it was supposed to be the moment when Batman saw he was going overboard.
Ostensibly that moment should be when a bunch of human being are lying in piles of their own charred innards around him, not when he's bruised up someone's Invincible Son.
Josiah Hall
>Something he didn't want to do in the first place? Eh?
Nolan Richardson
...
Camden Murphy
Get off Sup Forums, Frank.
Aiden Reed
Too true. Why the fuck didn't you direct this film bro?
Robert Cox
Oh, for sure, I would have wanted him to not have killed anyone, with the Superman thing being the only time he went overboard.
Or, conversely, if he is killing people because he's given up hope, like in the movie we got, then it should have been something different than Superman just saying Martha and having Bruce see himself as a murderer.
Alexander Hill
Batman shouldn't have to go through an arc where he has to stop thinking people need to die because they're powerful. Baan should be a super hero.
Jordan Cox
Maybe, just maybe, your fandom has cause you to lower your expectations for the movies JUST a bit too much. Just throwing that out there.
Kayden Lee
How did you know?
Levi Phillips
You mean thomas
Ian White
Because I'd require a movie about caped crime-fighters to have a smidgeon of fun[/spoiler ] in it somewhere.
Chase Phillips
>Batman was completely obsessed with gaining the means to kill Superman, One of the most famous quotes about how to go about beating someone is "KNOW THY ENEMY".
Jacob King
Wait what language was this in originally? Has the Martha meme really reached Asia?
Chase Watson
Sort of I guess. I don't think BvS was good, but there were parts I definitely enjoyed. I hope the Ultimate Cut is just a bit better, because I can easily enjoy the movie without thinking it's good here.
Sadly :( I just want a good DC film :(
Charles Baker
>Batman being able to straight up murder Superman in a short fight makes sense >Batman and Superman fighting in an early interaction makes sense >Batman coming at a person with murderous intent when he didn't kill the Joker who MURDERED ROBIN makes sense Commit suicide or stay on Sup Forums, either works for me.
Alexander Hernandez
Because Batman was already shit-talking Superman's alien parents. If Superman had saved mom, Batman would probably say "Thanks for reminding me. I'll kill her next".
Eli Carter
I think the amount of laughs and criticisms that scene is getting is fucking ridiculous. The only thing wrong with the scene is Cavill's line delivery, or maybe his dialogue would had needed some slight rewriting to make it just a bit more natural.
What comes to Batman's reaction, it was great. He was clearly torn and confused, and you could really see him processing the new info and coming to the conclusion that he won't kill Supes. And ok, maybe they were a bit too friendly from then on out, but that's about it.
Great scene, great movie. Why didn't they just show this in the theaters?! :/ (I know why, but still)
David Wilson
>and you could really see him processing the new info The fact that it was new information is part of the problem.
Dylan Morris
>the movie isnt too smart for people >they just need scenes like this one explicitly layed out and explained to them or else theyll call it bad writing and meme on it
Jacob Butler
>layed out
Evan White
>ITT: The rest of us just don't have refined taste.