Putting aside racism and bigotry, can we have a sensible discussion on the pros and cons of Islam? I think you will find a lot of things much to your liking including:
> no degeneracy
> race mixing is heavily discouraged
> military culture
so, lets do it, lets remove emotion from the equation and discuss it in a clear and calm way
Other urls found in this thread:
thereligionofpeace.com
youtube.com
islam-watch.org
geenstijl.nl
nytimes.com
youtube.com
twitter.com
>Killing the infidels
They literally force you to worship a pedophile.
You say "bigotry" like it's a bad thing. It is illogical for non-Muslims to not be bigoted towards Muslims. Islam specifically states that Muslims should murder non-Muslims. It is literally illogical to tolerate that.
*discussion on the cons and cons of Islam*
fixed it for you
thats a pretty ignorant thing to say, do you actually have any proof for that?
No, i'd rather live in reality. Why the heck would somebody voluntarily join a crazy, ancient death cult?
How does this work? You have internet and so have access to information. Yet you don't use it to gain knowledge about the world you live in. How dumb can you be?
Self policing populace so the globalist world government doesnt have to spend alot on police forces?
> no degeneracy
They fuck little boys in swimming pools in broad daylight, lynch young gorls to death if there is so much as a rumor they badmouthed the quoran, cut of their genitals and cover them head to toe, because they are massive insecure faggots, how is that not degenerate?
but they were infidels!!
badoom boom pish
Thanks for coming folks
>84176499
youtube.com
This video is all you need to know.
>Inbreeding
>it's the kiwi kike/muslim again
go back to Africa
How many times does this need to be shot down? Islam has pre-modernity values, which is admirable, but the religion is basically based on Arab supremacy now. White westerners need to find their own antidote to modernity, not take another race's.
Koran 033.021: Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.
Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah
Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 992: - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah."
> circumcision
> females in charge
TITS OR GET THE FUCK OUT
>Jewish Person asks me if I want to convert
"No thanks" "Oy vey, have a nice day"
>Mormon asks if I want to convert
"No Thanks." "Okay, have a nice day"
>Christian asks if I want to convert
"No Thanks." "Okay, God be with you."
>Catholic asks if I want to convert.
"No Thanks." "Okay, but you'll burn in hell!"
>Muslim tells me to convert
"No Thanks" "ALLAHU AKBAR" and I get publicly executed.
If a religion forces you to participate at risk of physical injury it will never be good.
islam sucks because islam is gay and mostly niggers do it
also i heard their prophet sucks dicks all day
>Koran 033.021: Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.
tl;dr: Do as Muhammad did or said to do.
islam-watch.org
And before anyone criticizes the source:
>Abul Kasem is an Bengali ex-Muslim and academic.
tl;dr: Not a far-right white supremacist.
Ever wonder why so many Muslims commit terror attacks? It's because Muhammad committed and/or ordered at least ONE FUCKING HUNDRED of them, and because the Koran says to do as Muhammad did.
>the pros & khans
>KHANS
GTFO CTR SHILL
>Putting aside racism and bigotry
Where do you think we are?
Putin, the ultimate death pill in the shadows.
This is the kind of argument we all come to pol for
Here.
Can some mud refute this.
The trick behind the apparent inconsistency of the Quran and why the radical Muslims are always correct: Like no other holy book among the world religions, the Quran contains an abundance of contradictory expressions. What is forbidden in one place is expressly demanded in another, and vice versa. However, the contradictory quality of the Quran is only an apparent one. It falls apart abruptly when one recognizes the very carefully protected secret hidden within the architecture of the Quran. For the Quranic Suras (chapters) are not arranged chronologically, but rather according to their length – and the newer Suras (from Muhammad’s violent later phase when he was in Medina) override the older ones from his era in Mecca that were comparatively more peaceful. However, this secret is guarded by Islamic scholars very closely as if it were a holy grail – and is aired only on particular occasions.
(An Essay from Michael Mannheimer, Germany, March 23, 2010 )
>closely guarded secret
>the Koran literally states abrogation is a thing
>Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?
thats Jewish lies!
Every religion is hijacked by 'the power'. Informed religious people understand this. Only in the west has this been realized (after a lot of fights). Some people call it 'the enlightenment'.
Fuck off, mohammedina.
>implying all the subhuman muds understand the doctrine of abrogation
>implying the doctrine of abrogation supports non violent muds
>implying the doctrine of abrogation doesn't prove that ISIS is correct in carrying out their caliphate
The Qur'an is unique among sacred scriptures in accepting a doctrine of abrogation in which later pronouncements of the Prophet declare null and void his earlier pronouncements.
>Chapter 9 of the Qur'an, in English called "Ultimatum," is the most important concerning the issues of abrogation and jihad against unbelievers. It is the only chapter that does not begin "in the name of God, most benevolent, ever-merciful."[54] Commentators agree that Muhammad received this revelation in 631, the year before his death, when he had returned to Mecca and was at his strongest.[55] Muhammad bin Ismail al-Bukhari (810-70), compiler of one of the most authoritative collections of the hadith, said that "Ultimatum" was the last chapter revealed to Muhammad[56] although others suggest it might have been penultimate. Regardless, coming at or near the very end of Muhammad's life, "Ultimatum" trumps earlier revelations.
>Because this chapter contains violent passages, it abrogates previous peaceful content. Muhsin Khan, the translator of Sahih al-Bukhari, says God revealed "Ultimatum" in order to discard restraint and to command Muslims to fight against all the pagans as well as against the People of the Book if they do not embrace Islam or until they pay religious taxes. So, at first aggressive fighting was forbidden; it later became permissible (2:190) and subsequently obligatory (9:5).[57] This "verse of the sword" abrogated, canceled, and replaced 124 verses that called for tolerance, compassion, and peace.[58]
Suyuti said that everything in the Qur'an about forgiveness and peace is abrogated by verse 9:5, which orders Muslims to fight the unbelievers and to establish God's kingdom on earth.
>mohammedina
Fuck off you stupid waffle faggot. Refute what I said don't just blame it on "the power" which is fucking pathetic.
It's a faggy no fun religion what a shit ton of rules and neckbeard imams demanding that you pray 5 times a day and do endless retarded rituals and shit. No alcohol, no music. Plus you get killed if you fuck up. No thanks Mohamet. There's a reason why muzzies are pissed off and thats because islam makes people miserable.
Also,
>Koran 033.021: Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.
With this in mind, say, for example, you have two contradictory Koran verses. The former is tolerant towards non-Muslims, the latter intolerant.
BOTH ARE CORRECT, BUT EACH IS ONLY CORRECT IN CERTAIN CONTEXTS.
The Koran says to do as Muhammad did. So, how do you interpret the two above hypothetical, contradictory verses? You use historical context to determine when to apply each quote.
The tolerant, peaceful parts of the Koran were written when Muhammad was in Mecca and didn't have many followers. Him and his followers were outnumbered by non-Muslims. If one is in a situation where they are outnumbered by non-Muslims, such as Muslims in the United States today, one is to obey the tolerant, peaceful verse, as that's what Muhammad said to do and did while he was outnumbered by non-Muslims.
The intolerant, violent parts of the Koran were written in Medina, once Muhammad gained tons of followers and was able to overwhelm non-Muslims with numbers. When one is in a situation like this, where Muslims outnumber non-Muslims, such as, say, in Saudi Arabia, one is to instead apply the intolerant, violent verse.
This makes perfectly logical sense. One will get annihilated if one applies the intolerant, violent verses of the Koran in situations where they are far outnumbered by non-Muslims. So, Islam instructs Muslims to be peaceful and tolerant until they are the majority, then slaughter the infidels.
Fuck off, Islamic scum.
It's a dangerous political ideology, not a religion.
This thread Jihad of the pen.
I know a female muslim when I see one.
Don't hide, confront, and be blown away.
bbq man.
>certain contexts
This is what the doctrine of abrogation refutes entirely. The peaceful stage of muhammads life is superceded by the later more violent stage of his life. Everything claimed during his years of peace is overridden by his later violent years.
>female muslim
laffen.
>It's a dangerous political ideology, not a religion.
Thats pretty intolerant
sissy
>don't draw pictures of our prophet
>don't have any faith other than Islam
>don't leave our religion
>don't be gay
>don't be a woman outside without a male escort
>don't be a woman who was raped without male witnesses
>don't be a scantily clad woman
>you must adhere to bullshit superstitions like halal food and carefully tiptoe around our delicate sensibilities or you're a racist
>child brides
Fuck off
>worshipping a pedophile sand nigger
Lick my bigoted asshole you whiney faggot
...
>have to submit to arab moon god
>no pork
yeah no thanks
>on the pros and cons of Islam?
pros
>anti-jew
>fight for what they believe in until their death
>peaceful until recently when jews took their land and we bombed their countries to defend israel.
cons
>really bad at telling us whats wrong
>bombing and killing us to try and get us woke.
You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on our interpretations of Islam. I see the whole "be peaceful when you're outnumbered, be violent when you outnumber the kafir" thing as an extension of taqiyya:
>Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliya (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them.
I see it as, "be peaceful and tolerant to non-Muslims, and do your best to conceal the violent, intolerant aspects of Islam while you're outnumbered by the kafir to protect yourself from them, then slaughter the kafir once you outnumber them."
Regardless if my or your interpretation of Islam is correct, both of our interpretations acknowledge that Muslims are instructed to slaughter non-Muslims until Islam is the only religion on Earth. That's the important thing for Western civilization to understand.
We are the problem, we have no business in their countries
Obviously they are a bunch of losers
.
geenstijl.nl
If you have the time to read all that.
Islam as a religion separate from governance is not too much of an issue. It is a very prescriptive, top down, us against them mentality and that becomes dangerous over time.
When principals of Islam get applied above basic humanist principles and used to guide law you will get a violent, oppressive, authoritarian nightmare state like you have in well practically every middle eastern country. As a religion it is in need of reform, cutting out the parts that say it is ok to kill people for not following the laws in the Koran (or that there is no punishment for killing them from God.)
Right now you get a sort of violent religious version of gerrymandering. that the people espousing the most radical versions of Islam gain support from the masses of Muslims that are "normal" and just want to live their lives fuck their wives and make more children. If they aren't going to be targeted by following the rules than they go along with it. and again and again a more violent version then the last bunch of shitheads comes along, kills the old leaders and labels them "not true Muslims" unless they follow their more literal reading of the Koran and hadiths.
Add to this that the great wealth of these countries is in Oil and the unholy throat slitting shitstorm that it brings from a global market that NEEDS oil to run the world. Or in Afghanistan whose biggest cash crop is fucking opium that condenses economy of these places to either state run monopolies or a criminal drug trade. It creates an exploitable system. "The West" has been fucking with the middle east since WW1 in terms of overthrowing elected leaders, installing puppet governments, propping up minorities with guns and money to keep them in power, and we act all surprised when it leads to dictators. There are very week ties to their identity as citizens of a given middle eastern Muslim country. and stronger ties to tribe, region, religious sect. But now the world is invested in the boarders drawn at the end of WW1.
Can't stay an hour without shovelling some pig down your hole, can you?
I'm sorry, does this offend you?
>As a religion it is in need of reform
Nah. Western civilization simply needs to ban the practice of Islam and the possession of Islamic texts. Failure to do so will probably lead to Islam taking over Western civilization in time.
Contrary to what any Muslim would say, there is not one Islam.
I can't compare Muslims around here with the ones in the Middle East, only thing in common is they both worship some dude named Allah. The execution of this belief is very different when mixed with different cultures.
Kill his bbq with that.
Muslims submit only to the law of Allah, all other laws don't exist and can never be considered above the law of Allah.
Violent Islam is a product of it's environment, and that it has NEVER since it's creation been separated from the politics of the regions it is dominant in.
When Muslims start killing other Muslims the first thing they do is claim the Muslims they are killing are not "real muslims" because they are breaking laws A, B and C. while the other side is happy to shoot back saying that their enemies are breaking X, Y and Z so it's ok. and all those dirty kuffar aren't muslims at all so war against them is ok according to the koran. It is a religion expressly written for conquering, and it breeds strong, relentless fighters. It forces it's women to remain chaste, keeps them out of positions of power where they can make the society soft. And even prescribes what you can and can't eat and ways to prepare food (just like "kosher" jewish laws) that came from a time before refrigeration or a basic understanding of disease and bacteria. this kept their tribes healthy and strong, full of fit fighting men with a fuckton of sexual repression.
Islam is dangerous precisely because it is a religion, AND a method of governing people's lives.
GIVE IT UP FUCKING SERIOUSLY.
>there is not one Islam.
There IS only one Islam, and it is defined by the Koran and Sunnah of Muhammad.
Apostates are to be killed just like the kafir.
> no degeneracy
Someone post that webm of the afghan boy fucker.
Yeah, just like there is only one Christianity because there's only one Bible, right?
There cannot be different interpretations.
Sorry bro, I don't agree. Reality shows something different.
...
Banning it won't make it go away, it hasn't worked for any religion in the past three thousand years. your only hop to end a religion are kill all the followers or convert/corrupt it from within. Ask the vikings about that.
Today there is the issue that scientifically we "know" all religions are pretty much bullshit. you just pick the flavor of bullshit you like and go on with your life pretending it's not bullshit. So there is little luck in mass conversion and or a belief in "miracles" and god emperors of rome to command a state religion. So kinda have to kill them or find a way to make them change their own religion, then the Allah purists come in and just start murdering fuckers.
>> race mixing is heavily discouraged
This isn't true brother-senpai. As long as they're two opposite gender Muslims marrying, it's fine.
...
Basically, or they're just special snowflakes.
There are different interpretations of Islam, but only one is correct: Muhammad's. This is the one, true Islam. Muhammad's interpretations of the Koran are found in the Hadith.
Yep that is one of the issues too. The laws of man need to come first. that whole golden rule thing and not "the golden rule only applies to my family and people who believe exactly as I do."
Taqiyya, taqiyya, taqiyya, taqiyya.
No, no, no, never.
Islam cannot be reformed. To deny any part of Islam is apostasy and this belief is too strongly ingrained in Islam to ever hope to change it.
I can't morally condone the genocide of all Muslims so I offer a ban on Islam as the best hope for stopping it from taking over the world.
I taught my dogs to sit to the Shahada.
>Muzzies are no better than the dogs they hate.
If you want to "fix" islam, good luck. You can really only hope to water it down over generations the same way other warlike religions were conquered or tamed in the past.
Raise a bigger army, cut off all trade with them and only agree to do business with the ones that reform or change their beliefs. And any retaliation must be met with swift and unforgiving violence. Starve, die, or change.
Religions evolve, nothing can withstand the trials of time without changing. Therefore if we look far enough in the future, it's irrelevant which interpretation is correct, only which one survives and is passed on.
Sup Forums is supremely jealous of Islam. They all hope and pray that Americans and Christians would start following a similar path.
>kill everyone not like them or try to infiltrate their cultures
>keep women indoors and chained to the kitchen
>kill them if they even cross the street to say hi to another man
>etc
It's really just jealousy that makes Sup Forums so mad at Islam and Jews.
I seriously hope it can be. for the sake of a billion people in the world. Because at this point I'm all about the Swordfish form of "diplomacy"
>Islam has a concept called Jihad, which is more or less trying to violently convert your country
>Islam has a concept called Hijrah, which is more or less trying to convert your country through immigration and breeding
>Islam has a concept called Taqiyya, which is more or less the idea they can lie to you in the name of their god
>Islam has a concept called Jizya, which is more a less a tax they put on infidels for not converting and living while living near them
>Islam has a concept called Taharrush, which is basically a game they play involving gang rape
>Islam has a concept called child marriage, which basically is pedophilia
>wanting to be subservient to a sandnigger death cult that seeks to destroy everything the glorious white man has created and erase any history before Islam that contradicts its bullshit
The only way for us to truly progress is to erase Islam from our societies completely.
>Sup Forums is one person
>HUURFFFF DURRRRR
>Putting aside racism and bigotry
You act like those are bad things. Racism is simply acknowledging and integrating into your thinking your experiences with various cultures and people.
Not all cultures are equal, and not all people are equal.
>The moon worshipping sandnigger cult of death does not compare with the judeo-christian anglosphere
You worship the moon, we walked on it.
If Islam evolves or changes from Muhammad's interpretation of Islam, it ceases to actually be Islam, whether it's called Islam or not.
Fpbp
Ship of Theseus paradox.
>The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned from Crete had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their places, in so much that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same.
>implying that there is only one correct resolution to said paradox
>implying that stating that a paradox exists without providing a resolution for said paradox refutes the post you're replying to
>implying that you're not just citing something random and historical to try to look smart and hoping this convinces people you're right
Do you even rhetoric?
I'm just bringing it up. There's not one universal truth when it comes to human perceptions, and that's all most of us have to guide us through our lives.
I'm not trying to look smart, just having a conversation.
Fuck, satan spawn. I've dealt with enough muslims to know a lying, murderous rat when I see it.
>999
Trips = true
>There's not one universal truth when it comes to human perceptions
OK, but there's only one Koran and there's only one Sunnah of Muhammad, and Islam is literally comprised solely of these two things. Islam is not comprised of John Doe's interpretation of Islam. Islam is comprised of the Koran and the Sunnah of Muhammad.
#notallmuslims
pls stop bein a meanie trumpie and come join my groupie in tumblr!! :DD
And I'm not saying you are wrong, but other people that consider themselves Muslim would.
>And they would be wrong, because Islam is solely composed of...
Your argument closes the conversation.
Theyre a cancer to society and they need to be helped.
Fuck that.
Muslims need to all die.
I'll accept nothing less.
Does everything have to be about racism, bigotry, degeneracy when we talk about foreign cultures?
Why don't we talk about fake science instead?
Chinese don't integrate well in American society => Water + Oil
Islam are volatile against non-Islamic cultures => Water + Sulfuric Acid
Some things just aren't meant to be mixed without a boom, no matter the substances are.
You do realize European Christianity has very little in common with early Gnostic Christianity? That guy has a point.
Malaysians aren't brainwashed by Wahhabism, so they're typically not terrorists. Most of your criticisms are directed to Wahhabism which is more reactionary and not about letting Islam evolve and leave behind its violent roots.
Religions evolve, sometimes for the better.
Islam wasn't that bad during the Islamic Golden Age, but then it got worse. It has its ups and downs.
But I agree with you Islam began violently and Wahhabi Orthodoxy is bad.
pros: most of them live in their own savage cultures and don't bother the civilised world
cons: some don't
>Christianity
Absolutely fucking irrelevant to the conversation.
>evolving and leaving behind Islam's violent roots
This is literally apostasy. Attempting to evolve Islam is literally apostasy. Islam states that every single part of the Koran is correct and perfect word of Allah, and that Muhammad represents a beautiful pattern of conduct. Thus, according to Islam itself, to deny any part of the Koran or the Sunnah of Muhammad is apostasy and inherently un-Islamic. Islam literally defines itself as being composed of the Koran and Sunnah of Muhammad. Any interpretation which denies any part of the Koran or Sunnah is not considered Islam by Islam itself.
I'm not stating an opinion. I'm stating a fact; I'm saying what Islam literally says. Islam says you are to do what Allah says and what Muhammad did and said to do, all of it, and that's that. If you're "evolving Islam and leaving behind its violent roots," you are not doing everything Allah said and Muhammad did and said to do, thus, you are not practicing Islam. You are an apostate and should be killed according to Islam.
We're discussing an Abrahamic religion, how is bringing another one to draw parallels irrelevant?
You're very close minded friend.
fuck off desperate shill
>inherently un-Islamic.
Well, you're just debating semantics. The Islamic Golden Age was littered with wine drinkers, homosexuals, and so forth. You could say they were un-Islamic then, but they did define themselves as Islamic.
>Any interpretation which denies any part of the Koran or Sunnah is not considered Islam by Islam itself.
I'm telling you that's Wahhabism. Islam in the past was more eclectic. For example, Avicenna and Al-Firabi drew inspiration from Greek philosophy and were more unorthodox in their approach to scripture. For example, Rumi would view "kill the disbeliever" as metaphorical and not a literal command to kill people, like Zen texts which say kill icchantikas (i.e., deluded one) -- yet Buddhists consider that metaphorical. Rumi would say stuff like, "In order to truly kill the disbeliever you must show compassion and love them."
>I'm stating a fact;
That's how Wahhabis talk.
>You are an apostate and should be killed according to Islam.
Not really. It depends on the stance the Muslim takes to scripture. Al-Ghazali, for example, was a piece of shit who called Alawites heretics and said they should die, but compare Al-Ghazali to someone like Ibn Arabi or Saadi Shirazi and things get a bit more "nuanced".
Wahhabism does not necessarily have to be "true" Islam. There is no "true" Islam because it is constantly reinvented according to everyone's unique interpretations, but the interpretations can be classed according to some trends. Basically, man, I'm saying some strands of Sufism is the way to reform Islam for the better. I'm still not a Muslim. I just know the history of the region somewhat well.
Islam itself, which is objectively defined solely by the Koran and the Sunnah of Muhammad, is a dangerous ideology which states in no uncertain terms that Muslims are to fight and kill non-Muslims until the only world religion is Islam.
The very existence of Western civilization will always be in jeopardy as long as humans are still able to access the Koran and Sunnah of Muhammad.
People can believe all of the interpretations (which Islam itself objectively states are apostasy) of Islam they want. The actual practice of Islam by people worldwide can evolve all it wants. None of this changes the fact that the Koran and Sunnah are violent world domination manuals and the greatest threat to Western civilization.
so its bascailly saudi's spreading this shit. And they buy american politicians. hmm.
Does merkel have ties to saudi arabia?
>There is no "true" Islam
True Islam is exactly what the Koran and Sunnah state, and nothing else. This is not debatable. You are objectively incorrect. Sorry.
>True Islam is exactly what the Koran and Sunnah state, and nothing else.
But I'm saying you are divorcing one's interpretation from what the Koran and Sunnah state. For example, in one Zen text written by Bodhidharma, it is stated one can kill icchantikas (deluded ones), yet most Buddhists interpret that as metaphorical. However, the way it is state could be interpreted as literal and a commandment to kill. It's a matter of interpretation. You cannot separate interpretation from statements.