It was nice to see Neil write Sandman again...

It was nice to see Neil write Sandman again, but I don't like how he said the Endless had parents and established a hierarchy. I liked the idea that the Endless were concepts that existed since the beginning, not this cliche polytheistic religion mythology.

Hierachy among them existed since the old stories.

I didn't mind it. Weren't the parents Time and Space? Makes sense that they'd be there first. It wasn't until sentient life developed that the Endless came into existence/were born.

>Weren't the parents Time and Space?

But time is an artificial construct, an arbitrary system based on the idea that events occur in a linear direction at all times, always forward, never back. Time cannot truly exist without sentient life to develop the concept of time.

nigga no one cares and if they did they'd tell you to amend 'time' to 'entropy' and stop being a bitch

And what are dreams and desires m8?

>concepts that existed since the beginning
They Still are

Reminder that Yahweh is the most powerful being in the universe only because most people believe He is, and that Morpheus will overwrite reality with whoever's next when Yahweh falls out of favor.

But is Yahweh the same thing as the presence?

I didn't finish it all but in Lucifer its pretty much directly shown that he is. That is, that they are one and the same.

Yes. When Morpheus rewrites reality, he makes it to where the new data always existed. To say there were creators before Yahweh is a misnomer, because as far as the Universe is concerned he was always there.

>time cannot truly exist without sentient life
nigga what

time is the measurement of a series of events, a stone isn't weightless just because there is nothing to weigh it

It is and it isn't. Until you can weigh it, it's in a superposition of being both weighted and weightless.

For what I know, the Endless are INTO the sphere of the gods, while the Presence is greater and extend its influence way above it.

Dream probably can only influence on the sphere of the gods and bellow.

Time can exist without sentient life, you fucking retard.
Time refers to a sucession of events in a given space using another object as reference, so to have time you need at least two atoms (length).

I'm not familiar with the multiverse but

Who is that dude on Overvoid? Destiny?

I don't think that he is on overvoid, but yes, it is Destiny.

The Endless go beyond gods. They are literally the fundamental concepts of reality.

But still part of the Sphere of Gods isn't? And if I remember correctly, Dream didn't think that he had a chance to defeat LĂșcifer.

Which thinking again...its kind of weird, he created his OWN multiverse. Did he had an equivalent for endless or he choose to let it random?

Can someone explain me that vibrational realm wankery?

he didn't think he could defeat Lucifer because he was super weak from being imprisoned for a couple decades, also because he was in Lucifer's realm (where he is most powerful)

Well you can't have dream without somebody to dream

Pretty sure that he said that even in his full force that he wasn't sure if he could win a confrontation.

People believe Lucifer is the Big Bad, thus he is and has the power to prove it.

I don't think that Dream can affect the Source.

No he can. If the universe stopped believing in a monotheistic God, it would be reduced to the level of the various gods that were aiming for the key to hell.

Don't you get it, he IS the Source! The Endless are also their opposites. Death is Life, Despair is Hope, etc. Dream is Reality.

I think that we need a Hypercrisis thread.

Map isn't to be literally taken. Placement literally only has Dreams realm and thus Darkseid ruler of Apocalypse is equal to Yaweh ruler of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Basically read comic, don't point at the map. The map is wrong in many ways.

...wait the whole universe is monotheistic? That can't be right.

Aliens only exist because Earthlings think they do. That's why they all look like people in makeup or animal parts sewn together or goo.

But the aliens existed before humans did. Trying to make everything the figment of human imagination is retarded.

They existed before we did now, but before we existed, they hadn't.

Recall Lucifer was a fraud and not actually the First of the Fallen so for all we know Dream could be mistaking him for the real one who actually is powerful.

First of the Fallen is a title that both Lucifer and the real first held for a while. Lucifer could beat Micheal. The real first couldn't to beat Gabriel. Power wise, Lucifer > first.

Except they did.

And Saint of Killers defeated Lucifer, every angel at once then Yaweh.
Saint of Killers is strongest.

Preacher ain't canon with the rest of the DCU

Nigga, you are forgeting that IN UNIVERSE they are just comic book characters.

I remember one Sandman story that had some kind of solar-based organisms.
What the fuck was that?

I prefer to believe that it was a joke.

Just as canon as Lucifer.

That was from this and they were actual suns.
>TFW Dream got cucked by a star

Eh. The Endless aren't really gods themselves. Gods are more like dreams made real. Then, when belief in them fades away, they return to being mere dreams again until they eventually fade away and 'die'.

Lucifer treats Christianity as being the main religion and the force that keeps creation together simply because it's currently the most "powerful" religion with "real" faith in it. If the people stopped believing in it, the religion would gradually begin to have less power over creation. That doesn't mean a religion needs to have "genuine" faith in it for the god/s in it to have power, though. So long as they're famous and remembered, they'll still retain a lot of power. See the Norse gods.

See that whole issue with the immortal woman who was doomed to always experience her miscarriage. The gods who cursed her to that fate had long since been forgotten and were mere wisps. With no one to worship or even remember them besides the immortal woman, they were only tiny wisps of their former selves.

That's only speaking about himself as an individual acting outside in other realms. Dream is most powerful within his own realm because he IS the Dreaming itself. Inside the Dreaming, he's much more powerful because what's real there is what he decides is real.

And this is just one example in the ways the Endless retroactively affect reality. Delirium also casually cursed Lucifer's half-faced follower to be who she "always" is.

Everything is canon. EVERYTHING

Well some things are nore canon than other things.

>tfw the necropolis stories-inside-a-story on The World's End
God, i love Gaiman.

>Aliens only exist because Earthlings think they do.
Not all beings are the result of humans believing in them. For sure, the state of humans being the dominant species on our planet is because they united as a species and dreamed of such a reality. But some beings existed without their input. The personifications of the suns, for example, or dimensions like Glory. There are also the fairies who left Earth's dimension because it was becoming less 'magical' due to humans' understanding (and thus, belief) of reality becoming more concrete.

So yeah, within the Sandman universe, just because something is a mythological figure or sci-fi species, that doesn't mean they were created by humans' dreams and beliefs. They and the power they have exist independently of humans, whether or not they believe in their existence or even know of them.

Yahweh is definitely dependent upon the people's beliefs, though. Hence why anyone could take the seat of Yahweh when it was left empty (the 2 giants who started taking credit for Yahweh's miracles in the past, literally rewriting history by making people believe they're the gods in Yahweh's religion).

Well they did now, but they didn't before.

>the state of humans being the dominant species on our planet is because they united as a species and dreamed of such a reality.
That's just cat propaganda. Human always on top.

>he's much more powerful because what's real there is what he decides is real.

Until the furies completely wreck the place that is

That only happened cause he gave into delirium and sought out a path to destruction that ended in death.

Time is a succesion of events. Also time isn't linear in dc, it's cubic/simultaneous and always shifting.

Who's to say Humans aren't the figment of an alien's imagination?

They are. That's why they exist as comic characters.

All aliens are better than us, but we always beat them. They are clearly our ideas.

They prefer to be called the kindly ones

Because he wanted to die. Also, the Furies are above the gods like the Endless. Perhaps not to the same extent as the Endless, but they're capable of exacting punishment and hurting them. At any rate, the Endless cannot really be killed. Not until all life in existence is gone/incapable of experiencing them.

Also, Dream refused to fight against the Furies. He postured against them, but they explicitly confronted him about his inaction in one of the scenes in that comic. They'd never stop until he "died" or Lyta was dead, since they were only even able to "hurt" Dream in his realm by using her (being able to dream) as a vehicle for themselves. Even then, though, they didn't even truly hurt Dream. Dream simply allowed the damage they wreaked to remain. None of the havoc they did was actually permanent or capable of persisting beyond however long Dream wanted it to. All the damage they did was Dream just an act of self-flagellation because of how much he disliked himself and wished to die.

Or maybe we are their horror stories.

But they are our horror stories.

Every single alien in DC by definition is objectively a character in a humans superhero story.

Dream can't retroactively change the universe, the cat went through the gate of lies dumb dumbs

The original series had already established that they have parents, that the older ones are generally more powerful than the youngers, and that with the exception of Destiny they are all younger than the first life.

And a tangent to this; Dream's state of being is always related to how he perceives himself. For example, that one time he actually got beat up and trapped in the Dreaming by his usurpers and had to be saved by a princess (was this a retcon? Because I seem to recall the female Dream having a fondness for being a sibling to the guys who usurped him in the first place); Desire may have been the one to send her to him, but she was simply just a creation of Dream's in the end. Dream getting subdued by some thugs was simply an excuse for him to get a waifu because of how lonely he was.

Then there are the tools he created out of the brothers who took over the Dreaming; the only reason he's so dependent on them for his power is because he gave them their power. However, if he simply decided that they didn't actually have any power and that he had always had all his strength with him in the beginning, that would be the truth. It's just like Death and her ankh. The actual objects of power they possess don't have any meaning beyond what they place into them.

The cat in Overture was just Desire masquerading as the cat version of Dream.

He is the boundary between the Overvoid and the Source Wall.

Delirium can. Is she stronger than Dream?

The sphere of the gods contain archetypes, not neccesarily gods in the conventional sense. Also the morrisonian new gods were fundamental concepts of reality too.

>older than the first life
Ftfy

Why did Delight become Delirium?
How did the first Despair die?

how would a fight between the endless and someone like lucifer even work?

The whole message of Sandman says otherwise.
>we are all a world of dreams and stories
>sometimes we're the hero and other times we're nothing more than a bit player in someone else's grand adventure

That or they're just posturing as such. Wouldn't be the first time, as gods do that all the time (trying to pretend to be as fundamental as one of the Endless) or try and incorporate one of the Endless into their mythos (Dream as Apollo, I believe?).

That said, the Kindly Ones are not part of the Endless but exist as concepts above gods as well just like them. And the First Circle too might be like the Endless.

Delight went through a realization (grew up) and Delirium (self-delusion) was the result. Just so you know, Delight's existence represents how happy people, everyone in existence, are just to exist. To be alive.

Adding to this, Delirium knows things outside of what Destiny knows. Things not written about in his book.

I don't think there are any clues as to what happened to the first Despair. Just that the one who caused her death is still suffering and will probably continue to do so until all of existence is dead and gone.

The Endless exist as conceptual entities. They can't really die, but they all have to play by the rules set down by the universe. That's why Dream or Death could be captured and trapped in some guy's basement (well, not sure if Death could have been, since she's much more flexible than Dream and might just ignore the circle; I mean, if it was that easy to capture her, the Eremite could have done something else other than just wait for the one day she chose to be human). Except for Destruction, who just fucked off. And, honestly speaking, Destruction is probably the most powerful of all the Endless simply because he personifies destruction (even though he abandoned his responsibilities). No one else can harm someone better than him, I'd say.

Life became self aware.
The first Blue Lantern killed him.

Because Dream let them. Death was all "you could just kick them out."

Who's the first Blue Lantern?

But they could still kill him when he left the dreaming right?

Kamina.

Death was born when the first life died, and Dream when the first critter dreamed.

Had sex.
Had sex.

But they had to exist before that shot tho right? Things dream and die because they exist and they exist because things need to dream and die.

Kill him? Probably not. Harm or trap him? Definitely.

They're concepts.

Destiny is the oldest of the Endless because he starts existing when the first thing (not necessarily a living thing) started existing. The Endless exist when the concept they represent does. So when the first being died, Death was there. When the first being dreamed, the Dreaming was established. Destruction, the twins Desire and Despair, and Delight/Delirium followed suit. None of the Endless existed before their concept did.

What's the transparent sphere opposite Nil?

Lin.
He doesn't like attention.

But if that was true than Death would be the youngest sister.

Non-sentient/sapient life exists. Like, the "life" on mars.

Cells and bacteria dying doesn't constitute as destruction.

So that time the Flash ran forward iin time to when death no longer existed as a concept, he doomed her to outlive all her siblings by demanding overtime.

The whole universe doesn't have to be. When Yahweh made the Earth he made it the linchpin of the multiverse.

Yes, actually. The last four beings to exist in the universe chronologically are her, Destiny, Tim Hunter, and Mister E. She grants Destiny rest, sends Tim back tot he present day, and forces Mister E to walk back home the long way.

Common misconception, Death came into being when the first life began. She is there at the start, and the end, of every life.

Because as death implies life, life must also imply death.

And she had to wait around in the total absence of life for Flash to show up then leave, because her intern couldn't catch him. What a cock up.

Why the FUCK isn't there a story about Desire vs Buddha?

I'd cream myself

Actually. In Hellblazer the demon Chantinelle and angel Tali had a baby that was taken by heaven, and if Genesis is stronger than god then that might be why Yahweh left Creation in Lucifer.

I would like one of Delirium and Joker.

And where does life begin?

D4 isn't doing fucking near Buddha. That's another one of D2's kids.

The misconception you have is about the nature of the endless. Their existence is defined by what it reflects. Death is shaped by life with the concept of mortality, Dream by reality that it supersedes/sidesteps, and so on.
The first thing that had the ability to die, by having life, created death. Quite possibly Destiny himself.

So who defined Destiny before Delirium existed?

Destiny is defined by the very universe he can't interact with.
He is both the reader and the story.