I feel like the obsession with "deconstruction", post ironic meta commentary...

I feel like the obsession with "deconstruction", post ironic meta commentary, and this smarmy sense of immersion breaking self awareness is what destroyed genuine story telling in comic books. Comic book writers have actively tried to dismantle the sense of immersion into a world of fantasy that was built into the world of superheroes, replacing it with winks and references to "tropes" and other structures of story telling that they rip down and don't even bother to substitute with anything of substance.

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Yeah, me too.

I very much enjoy books that grapple with ideas and even metafiction but do it in ways that are not self-consciously showy, and work it into the process of telling stories so you read for story and realize there was a theme behind it. Cary Bates' Captain Atom did that well.

If comics have been consistent on anything it's that they've always reflected the attitudes of the time.

In other news, the sun rises in the east, water is wet, and the pope is, in fact, Catholic.

I think obsession with superheroes is what's destroying comics. Look at how your post assumes that comic books just means superheroes. That's dangerous.

That art is nice though.

Are there any chilled Surfer stories?

Not ones with EXPLOSIONS and shit?

Requiem is amazing.

I think we can all agree on that

Comic books wouldn't be anywhere without superheroes. Obviously there are other stories to be told with the medium, but the foundation will always be the superhero.

Name 5 books that do this in the past 2 years

This is so incredibly both foolish and factually inaccurate it is STUNNING

>post ironic

What does this even mean? I've asked those fags on /lit/ several times over the years and even they don't know.

>Comic books wouldn't be anywhere without superheroes

Except for that decade where they fell out of fashion

Or the decades before they were even a thing

Multiversity, Rebirth, Remender's saga.

What do you mean?

We're in the period where the structures of story telling that were being subverted with irony and meta deconstruction have been replaced by this very same sense of subversive irony, but the tone of comic book writing remains subversive and ironic, it's just now aimless and directed towards nothing. Irony no longer has a non ironic foundation to play off of.

Gasoline Alley?

Those aren't the comic books that made the medium a mainstay in popular culture and defined it.

This is really only a problem for bad writers who don't understand what they are doing or why. Good writers can do the whole "meta deconstruction commentary" thing and not only make it work, but use it to create something new and beautiful thats greater than the sum of its parts.

Pic very related

That sounds like a pretty meaningless distinction. It' more like genre subversion has become the norm instead of the novelty.

Grant Morrison isn't as clever as he thinks he is.

You are right the Sunday Paper far out strips the reach and appeal that Superheroes have had in terms of comics

I should not have been thinking so small.

Superhero comics are not the foundation of comics or storytelling with pictures ANYWHERE in the world, even in North America, they are the fusion of a bunch of stuff that predates them.

It is that simple

Fuck that reminds me I gotta save up for the latest Prince Valiant volume

Yep that page is a Gasoline Alley

And yet that's still more clever than most comic writers.

It's undeniable that the superhero comics of Marvel and DC are what build the foundation for the perception of comic books in our culture. Other stories and characters exist within the medium, but they aren't the pillars of it.

Very few comics do that these days. Name 5 ongoing comics that do this?

We get it, you like fantagraphics.

Man the indies are doing better than they have in forever, can you just leave us the fuck alone?

That is the problem you have, your focus is misplaced.

Emphasis on Characters and Plot will get you to that I guess.

Comics though are so much more than that.

Go away, Moore.

Most modern comics have this tone and attitude towards story telling. It's been the house style of Marvel since Bendis took over.

I understand that comics are much more than that, and I get that this is the point you're trying to get across, but you're going too far in your effort to minimize the importance of superhero comics in relation to the medium.

A meta reference or joke in a comic does not count. Marvel is shit because they are shit.

They are a part of it but not anything major.

Especially when you consider worldwide all the comic markets that dwarf what we do here, and all do it without a reliance on Superhero Stories

This.
I can't stand stories that don't stand on their own outside of their metacommentary like Pax Americana.
With that one in particular, not being able to "get" the commentary the first time around and needing it explained ruined it for me. With a story that's good in its own right, even if you need an outside source to explain its themes and commentary, you can still appreciate it, but when ALL you're getting out of the comic is what's explained to you by others...
Maybe I'm just a dumbass, though.

Yes it does, it's the exact thing I'm talking about.

Even in terms of character oriented action comics Superheroes don't hold a candle to the real king of that roost

I appreciate what you're trying to get across, and I respect the stories within the medium that aren't superheroes, but it's absurd to claim that superheroes "aren't anything major" within the medium of comic books.

EC comics were coming out a time when comics were selling the most they ever did and they were the leaders. They inspired a generation of creators in films, books and comics. Their impact was tremendous.

The problem with deconstruction is that most writers who claim they are deconstructing concepts in their work don't know what they are doing and use the term to protect their hack job from criticism.

But Pax Americana pretty much stands on it's own. It has it's own mystery and structure, but you can see the meta connection when you read the complete multiversity. Ultra comics on the other end is completely meta.

On the world stage they aren't

It is a problem we have here in North America of assuming whatever we are doing is most important.

>Especially when you consider worldwide all the comic markets that dwarf what we do here, and all do it without a reliance on Superhero Stories

Yeah in the US comics are such a tiny niche market. For the longest time they've been viewed as exclusively being read by "geeks." In other parts of the world it's just another medium without the stigma attached

Even in regards to the world stage, superheroes still have a massive influence on the medium of comic books. Less than in north America alone, sure, but you're going too far in your effort to minimize the influence of superheroes.

No, I really am not.

It would be slightly higher if this was 1991 or the early 60s

>were selling the most they ever did
Yeah because at the time the broad range of genres meant there was something for just about everyone. Then the CCA came along and comics became something only for children as fair as the mainstream was concerned

I'm talking about the entire span of the medium here, not one specific era.

I blame Watchmen personally.

I like Morrison but dude can't tell an interesting story if it doesn't have anything to do with archetypal, mythic, meta bullshit. Even his Batman run was largely about the 'myth and legacy of Batman'

He tries telling a straight story like WW Earth-2 and it's just... nothing.

all these guys are basically superheroes

they uphold the same values and do the same things

read Valiant

Nah the 80's were fine, the 2000's was when mainstream superhero comics really went to shit. Comics like The Authority or Ultimates had a much worse impact

Heroic Ideals existed before Superheroes did

How far back do you want to go?

Pax has beautiful visual storytelling

I think that one did get a little self-consciously showy towards the end, but we know it was rushed because of editorial demands. Hi OP

action ≠ superheroes

The problem is not Watchmen,its that everyone else tried imitating Watchmen and failed miserably.

Am I crazy to think that Watchmen is overrated? I liked it but I don't get why alot of people say its one of the greatest comics of all time.

HI user

You are crazy it is.

However everyone goes through the phase thinking the groundbreaking amazing work is overrated it is natural

I did really like that run, so thanks for posting it. Even though you couldn't do it exactly now, you could do something with similar elements and the same themes tomorrow and it would still be good.

Gilgamesh is literally a Superhero story
>Hero meets other hero
>they fight
>then realize they should be bros
>be bros
>fight bad guys
>fuck shit up
>dramatic death

You're confusing the the giant and the dwarf.

Except the daily mundane family shit from Animal Man is amazing, and that's like 15ish issues

It's pure storytelling bliss, on the surface level it might not seem like that if you're just reading text bubble to bubble but examine the pages and layouts more, you'll see everything from foreshadowing to world building. It does everything a comic should do when it comes to telling a story. It's not flashy and doesn't need to be to circumvent it's weaknesses. I really wish GIbbons and Moore had worked on another major long form project together.

I know, I'm just saying Superhero stories use mythological tropes all the time and there's tons of crossover (as evinced by many characters being literally mythological)

My favorite part of the run, once Morrison writes himself into the story I lost all interest

Plus Zenith is pretty good even when it's just dumb rich celebrity superhero as well as when it's look I'm writing Miracleman notice me Moore-senpai.

>I really wish GIbbons and Moore had worked on another major long form project together

I think all they did were some back ups in Green Lantern or Omega Men

Don't get me wrong, Watchmen is still a good story, it just began the whole attitude of antiheroes and subversive deconstruction of the genre.

>dangerous
And words are violence.

They miss the biggest part though.

Myths end and the endings are a big part of them so new ones can be told.

Superhero stories don't.

they also worked on superman annual 11, for the man who has everything.

So...at the very end? Lel son.

stop reading cape shit bro beans.

> it just began the whole attitude of antiheroes and subversive deconstruction of the genre.

Not really. Watchmen and DKR get all the credit, but the trends are older than both.

For example The Punisher already had his own miniseries before Watchmen came out

You shouldn't be thinking in terms of "tropes" when you're writing these stories. It shouldn't be some meta commentary on mythical archetypes, it should just be a genuine story using these devices in the service of creating characters and building worlds.

It's the creative world building that I miss the most. That's what's truly missing from modern superhero comics. These days, they're so confined to a contemporary pseudo reality defined by populist social perceptions that they can no longer expand and grow into unique worlds conceived by the individual writers mind.

>Animal Man
>Zenith

Old stuff.

Watchmen is what launched it into the stratosphere though.

I like superheroes though.

Myths also show the progression of the world throughout the ages as a defining aspect of their conception.

I'd love to see a current run on something that tackled the military themes with as much nuance and care instead of "Eiling is a hamfisted cartoon villain". It's not like there's not current issues to work with.

m8 we were just talking about the epic of gilgamesh. we did about 4000 years in 7 minutes, animal man and zenith were written a blink away

The myths were told and retold and adapted over hundreds of years before the definitive arcs were finalised. The same will be the case with our most famous cape heroes (except it'll take decades rather than centuries, I guess).

Kevin Feige and Zack Synder may be the Homer and Hesiod of cape comics. Isn't that depressing?

marvel and dc are going to keep shitting out books that lead nowhere. you see it all the time, whenever a writer introduces something new/interesting it's all going to go back to the normal status quo anyway.

It makes me sick a little bit honestly.

Somebody needs to step up and create a massive, sweeping canon for the mythologies of Marvel and DC

Yes.

No, it's marketing and trends that killed your capes. Read some real comics for once before talking for the entirety of the media.

Superhero comics are also real comics.

>Requiem is amazing.

As Kirby is my witness - I don't see it. It's sentimental tripe to me.

With one exception: this quote.

"If sacred places are spared the ravages of war... then make all places sacred. And if the holy people are to be kept harmless from war... then make all people holy."

...That's horrifying. Like a parasite misguidedly feeding on a mannequin.

How clever does he think he is?

Comic books trying to emulate sitcom esque mundane dialogue is a big aspect of this. Comic books aren't supposed to be dialogue driven

>Comic books wouldn't be anywhere without superheroes.

That's not how you spell Detectives. Like nigga, DC doesn't stand for "Superhero Comics".

Comics were around before superheros. Superhero comics became the big thing during the golden age, but they were only a part of the market until the CCA banned crime, horror, etc. comics for adults.

Basically, superheros being synonymous with comics is the result of US senate meddling in the industry back in the 1950s for moral conservative busybody reasons.

And now today, we get to see the left try the same shit from their own uniquely horrible point of view.

Batman is a detective superhero user. Superheroes exist within many different genres of story telling.

Comic books peaked in 1986

>tons of characters with drastically different abilities
>fight scenes are always boring as shit and just treated like an obligation to be rushed through
>back to boring drama and bad jokes

The one thing you'd think cape comics would be good at are action.

They're too concerned with acting like they're live action to properly utilize their medium.

I agree. Also I really should read more surfer.

youtube.com/watch?v=h1FLRlVnHJQ

RECONSTRUCTION WHEN

I really despise how comics are stuck in this writer driven trench.

that;s the problem in a nutshell.
why bother taking something apart piece by piece if you're not doing anything to make it better?