Is taxation theft?

>my friend says taxation is theft by definition
mfw
Anyways Sup Forumsacks, what is your opinion? I honestly believe that taxation is a necessary evil of living in the modern world, but is not in any way theft. This is causing a rift between my friend and I and I thought we would take this argument to the level-headed denizens of Sup Forums

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>I honestly believe that taxation is a necessary evil of living in the modern world, but is not in any way theft.

If it is a necessary evil and NOT in any way theft, what makes it evil?

taxation is need of course, because people wouldn't willingly donate to the government, but it is is needed to pay for our military, salaries of anyone working for the government, etc. There just shouldn't be excessive tax, lile that shitty soda tax, THAT's theft.

>Is it yours?
>no
>Did you take it?
>yes
>Did the person's consent matter to you?
>no
It's theft.

Yeah, the way I originally worded it to my friend is that it is a toll for living in the modern world.

So are you arguing that taxes are not evil? Or that it is necessary?

I'm arguing that they are necessary and are not theft.

Build your own roads then.

>>Is it yours?
>>no
But it is theirs by definition.

>It being by him removed from the common state nature hath placed it in, it hath by this labour something annexed to it, that excludes the common right of other men: for this labour being the unquestionable property of the labourer, no man but he can have a right to what that is once joined to, at least where there is enough, and as good, left in common for others.
>theirs by definition
"No"

Okay, If you are to argue that taxes are not theft then that would mean any fruits of your labor is not under your ownership making a 99.99% tax just as valid as a 0.01% tax.

Theft is a violation of law.
Law is a product of the political process.
The political process is a formal means of establishing consensus.

Ergo, theft is defiance of the consensus.

Taxation is established via law.
Law is a product of the political process.
The political process is a formal means of establishing consensus.

Ergo, taxation is compliance with the consensus.

> theft is defiance
> taxation is compliance

Taxation is the opposite of theft.

All via coercion.

>natural rights don't exist

Roads are less than 0.1% of the tax.

The rest gets into funding companies that shouldn't get funding but have connections.

how about charging people for a good or service instead of holding it over them to try and excuse coercion

Not to mention gas taxes, tobacco taxes, alcohol tax, paying tax on used vehicles, making insurance mandatory then charging tax on it, tax on OTC medicine, tax on food, diapers, tampons, razors and other necessaries to live.

Those are just a few that are bullshit. And that's not even getting into loopholes allowing large companies to pay less in tax rates than people serving food and the rest of the low income.

that's exactly what property owners do. they pay for their own driveways.

by what magic do you believe this behavior can no longer be profitable and self-sustaining once it has more customers than just the owners?

>has never read bastiat
thanks for the 500-year old argument

why not just admit taxation is theft but assert it is a necessary evil?

is it because you lose the argument on those grounds every time because it isn't actually necessary?

constitution.org/tax/us-ic/cmt/ruml_obsolete.pdf

meant for

Technically it is legal plunder.
You can thank socialists for that.

Taxation is the fee you pay to society that allows you to live in it and have access to its currency that is usable and stable.

Nobody can own a house in Ohio a vacation home in Floria and a mansion in Aspen without the underlying structure of police and courts protecting their interests. Therefore you have to pay a fee proportional to how much you benefit from these protections.

Depends on if you agree that you should pay tax or not.
If you do not agree, that you should pay tax, then yes, it is theft.

We should pay more taxes. It's the price of living in a civilized world.

I don't always agree with how my money is being spent, but that doesn't mean I don't want roads and schools and hospitals and scientific research, etc.

u guys r dum

Maybe we should make taxes optional, but then force people who don't pay taxes to live in the mountains or some shit and be banned from ever communicating with the rest of us.

Honestly I'm sure some people wouldn't mind.

Taxation is sanctioned theft to ensure the existence of a state.
Just as how a prison sentence is sanctioned kidnapping to ensure the safety of other people.

Im not sure what the english word for it is but it is basically that the goverment is the only body allowed to use violence. If is theft, but its not the same as a person stealing an apple.

If the goverment takes too much under force, a judge can force them to pay it back because the excess would be theft because it was only sanctioned to a certain ammount.

neat, but he doesn't argue that all taxation isn't necessary, he's only really lambasting corporate tax.

he even outlines reasons why many kinds of taxation could be necessary.

You can accept a moderate level of taxation. But not the exhorborant amounts we have now.

The government has some valuable services, such as police, firefighters, military, EMS, regulatory commitees and infrastructure building. But then they have bullshit like
health care, VA administration, DMV and BLM. Hell even the forestry service doesn't serve more than a fuckboi to timber industry.

If you cut out all the crap, reformed the way government budgets worked, and got rid of all the welfare programs, taxes would be so much lower. You could cut military spending by 50% and it would still be just as strong, if not strong, if you'd only get rid of some of the bad business practices, like rent-seeking budgets.

The City of San Francisco has a budget of 9 billion dollars this year. A majority is spent on homelessness and cleaning up the city, as well as police.

I just got back from there. There were no police on the streets (if there were, their cruisers were old and rusted), homeless everywhere, and trash on every sidewalk.

Tell me how our government is good at spending money, I need a laugh.

National defense and public services, OK


Welfare and EBT cards, not OK

The exact word you want to use to describe the action is irrelevant; taxation is an act that takes people's property away from those people, usually against their respective wills.

If you want to call that "EHfzuygf" or something else, that's great. It's still something that shouldn't happen and is wrong to do.

if you really press your friend you'll find that he's either an anarchist or he, for at least one pet issue, believes that government has the moral right to interfere in the lives of citizens, and that that moral right comes from the power of democracy

if he's an anarchist you'll probably have to agree to disagree. If he isn't, you can show him why his views are not entirely logically consistent