Is this really how things should've gone?

Is this really how things should've gone?

No.

Nah, the problem is that Moore just used her as a prop for drama. Babs has no drive in TKJ, she's literally just there for Batman and Gorden angst.

No, because Barbara has stopped being Batgirl for a while back then. She was out of practice.

...

No. Physically, Batgirl is entirely human. The gun was already pointed at her and the Joker had his fingers on the trigger. Not to mention she was caught entirely by surprise. There's no way she could have attacked faster than he could have twitched his finger.

>not throwing the coffee at his fucking face then slamming the door shut
Like shit nig, you don't need years of training to throw steaming hot coffee at a dude's face

The Batfamily never forgets their training. They've shown that so much over the years.

She had no opportunity to do anything
Joker had her dead to rights gun already pointed at her and he had some thugs with him.

She was gonna get shot or subdued

>Bat character
>not dodging bullets on the reg

Have you not read a comic book from the last 50 years?

He was standing inches away from her. It's literally humanly impossible for her to have reacted in time.

Look regardless if people want TKJ canon or not, crippling Babs was better for the character

Her plot armor was at the dry cleaners.

If we were using real world rules no, but since it's Batman rules yes.

Why she should have a drive? Gordon just exist to he tortured and kidnaped, and nobody complain.

I mean, I for one have no problem with a character in a speciphic story being fucked up by surprise attack or bad luck, this kind of thing happen in real life and are usually criminally underused on comics.

they don't have powers without costumes
that's why Batman is always sure to at least wear his cowl or some other piece at all times

I have a head canon that Batgirl was still shot, but then was given Cybernetic implants and repairs by Cyborg. So she becomes a cybernetic Batgirl, but also a cool hacker with all her robotic implants. So she can be Oracle and Batgirl. Batacle. Oragirl. She then got BLACKED by him and his robot hugs.

Counterpoint: she's the daughter of a cop and a ex-superhero living in Gotham so she would probably check who was at the door before opening it.

and rob Barbara of some of the best character development she ever got?

Hell no

I think it's just bad writing for her to be a prop. What's that thing the lampshade test? She could've been replaced by Joker defacing the Giant Penny and not changed the story much.

Like Gordon gets the "We have to show him our way works" moment at the very least.

that all happened in Suicide Squad

Even in the sense of them both being tortured for Batman angst, Barbara is still treated as the disposable character.

That's not how it works in real life.

Idk. I get that this could have go other was, but the Joker was trying to break Gordon. Fucking up his daughter was part of that. You can't replace her.

This. Tired of TKJfags giving it credit for Oracle when Oracle was basically a fix for the damage done by TKJ.

The Bat characters used to get the shit beat out of them before the 80's.

Go read O'Neal Batman. Batman's constantly getting his shit pushed in by random mooks.

And what is the problem with being disposable on this story?

Comics are not real life.

Yeah, unfortunately Alan Moore is kinda misogynist (especially when writing female superheroes), so don't expect much from girls in his stories.

Yeah I can't believe someone would suggest a Batman character wouldn't adhere to the logic of real life.

I hate hate hate it. Ostrander and Yale are among the GOATS

well i'm critiquing the execution of it. Not the idea Joker fucks up Babs and Jim

>Alan Moore is kinda misogynist

Whats good about it?

>That's not how it works in real life.

Good thing this is a comic book.

Did you think about that before you hit 'post'?

>well i'm critiquing the execution of it.

What is the problem with the execution?

Naw the status quo is boring, anytime they shake it up feels like a sudden drop in pressure.

Counter-counterpoint: She didn't.

>He was standing inches away from her. It's literally humanly impossible for her to have reacted in time.

that she's just a prop!! not an actual character

>people still not understanding the greatness of Laurie's arc and how she's the best character in Watchmen

smdh

But she wasn't the focus of the story. Why she should have an arc or something?

>Wonder Woman bravely fighting against a stronger opponent in order to protect her friend's life is misogynist.

I hope this is bait and you're really not that fucking stupid.

That's obviously not how it worked in the comic either cause she god fucking shot.

I disagree with the ugly art.

Yeah, we all know that Bat characters have super plot armor that lets them move as fast as the Flash whenever their lives are in danger.

Its pretty obvious bait.

10/10

Did you complain when Luke's aunt and uncle were burnt alive? Did you complain when Eric Draven's girlfriend was killed?
Bad things happen to people, and it could be completely insignificant to the story as a whole.
In short, Barbara wasn't important to the story, and her being tortured was just what Joker used to torture Gordon.

What people seem to be forgetting is that Batgirl was on the way out anyways. This isn't the equivalent of axing a character just because "lolwomen," it was because she hadn't been popular in years, so in essence she was already a prop.

She didn't need an arc, she just needed to be not be treated like a prop.

How much time is Joker going to honestly give you if he's decided he's just going to outright fucking shoot you? Enough time to stop being caught off guard and give yourself enough leverage to knock him in the jaw? He isn't going to give you that much time.

Why?

Well luke's aunt and uncle were treated like actual characters.

Unless the plot demands.

Which wasn't the case here, not all bat characters need to have a Titanic invencible plot armor all the time. They are always best when they aren't with it.

the difference is that this is a shared universe and Barbara is an established character.

Wasn't the point of that scene to show that he's superhuman?

And? So was Jason Todd when he got crowbar'd to death. Oh but wait, she's a female so she needs special treatment to inspire little girls.

And then this dumb nigger brings up Veidt, who is 20 fucking Batman/Bruce Waynes in 1 body.

>If women aren't flawless invincible beings in the stories you write then you're kinda misogynist
Also it's "misogynistic" you tard.

>Wonder Woman fights someone out of her weight class
>gets her shit pushed in
>this is misogynist
This is before her power creep to near Superman's level. I hope I've taken bait.

Oracle is also better than Bubs as Batgirl

Why ask why?

It had a speciphic place on the story and was executed on a good way, also this

And everyone knows that nothing bad can happen to established characters in shared universes, right?

It's nice to see Batman's abilities not blown out of proportion for a change.

is being willfully ignorant and obtuse tiring?

And this is why Moore wanted the story to be non-canonical/why continuityfaggotry is bullshit.

Because I want to know what is so bad about not being the focus on a story that isn't about you, and that already has a place for you.

You don't answer any question, and just ask why anyone would make a question. You pretty much show a biased opinion and refuse to give any basis. What are you afraid to say? The same thing happen with COUNTLESS characters.

If you so strongly feel the need for a character's role to be changed in some way there must be a reason for it. What exactly should be changed and why do you think that change would be for the better? Does it make the story stronger in some way? Why?

>executed in a good way
Clearly it wasn't tho or else we wouldn't be having the conversation.

>O'Neil is the only Bat writer in Bronze age.

>People get triggered that a bad thing happened to a female character
>that must mean it was actually bad

>if 100% of the people on this planet don't agree with something, this is bad
You are ignoring the fact that you could be just a faggot, the fact that you can't give a good reason for why she should have a plot armor there shows it.

Excellent save user.

Is letting tumblr think for you easy?

Barbara wasn't created to be shot and crippled. Retiring her and crippling her shows that female characters are passive in agency, things are acted upon them and the men around them react instead of them reacting.

This isn't even a conversation just you asking why thing over and over taking non of the arguments into consideration.

>Mongul
>out of WONDER WOMAN'S weight class

Literally only in that story

>implying it's a tumblr thing to critique how Babs was written in TKJ

fucking Moore admitted he messed up the book!

>Barbara wasn't created to be shot and crippled.

Nor Jason Todd.

Damien was fucking shot after like a year in verse, and Jason was killed off because fans didnt like him wtf are you going on about.

No. Because he wasn't superhuman. If Veidt can do it, a Bat can do it.

>a woman in a story must ALWAYS represent every woman in fiction and real life

This is pretty patethic.

Then Batman can do it you mean.

Moore said that it was a mistake to write something so dark with Batman. He didn't said that whatever happened with Barbara was badly written.

iirc even in Death in the Family Todd made a bad call and it resulted in death. See agency and shit that people are talking about missing from TKJ Barbara?

Damien got stabbed when he died (and came back damn quick) what are you even talking about?

What's bad is that somethong to a female and we focus on the men's reaction to that first and foremost with no consideration how it affect Babs. No afterthought or a scene or Batman checking in on her, last we see of her is in photos naked and bleeding.

every member of the Batfamily except Dick was retired at some point

The whole point of watchmen is that except for Dr.Manhattan everyone was just completely human. Veidt had just trained hard to be in peak shape.

We'd have no Oracle then, but yeah.

Would have been much better if she suffered an injury fighting on her own merits, in her own story, and that's what gave us Oracle. Even Moore regrets it.

How does the 2nd half of the post not fall under the 1st half?

The same thing has happened to male characters before, you absolute faggot.

I could see that happening and have it not be bullshit. This is a Bat we're talking about.

Still wouldn't have happened if not for The Killing Joke. No TKJ, no Oracle, No Birds of Prey.

Er, it shows nothing of the sort. Or at least, it's subjective, and that's just what you seemingly took from it. I instead took the knowledge that no one was safe from the Joker, not even the Bat family, and even the best of people can have horrible things happen to them.

I can't wait until this strange social era ends. The way some western women talk, you'd think they were spit upon sex slaves in third world countries.

And we focus on them! They are part of that story! Babs only showed up to get shot and that's it for her for a good while.

Yeah, this was before her power creep. Unless there is any other examples of Wonder Woman from that era fighting enemies that can match Superman is strength, this isn't a crazy happening.

Barbara became Oracle, just because she's crippled doesn't mean she's useless or less of a character or a woman.

>Damien got stabbed when he died (and came back damn quick) what are you even talking about?

The only reason why Babs didn't gained bionic legs or something right after is because DC decided that she could represent handicapped people. You know, diversity push.

It's prevalent to the point of being need to be discussed.
>women get killed so to motive to men