Who was in the wrong here?

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captain america, he's so fucking self righteous and arrogant

Cap.

He lied to Tony and sheltered Tony's parents' assassin because "MUH FRIEND".

He also thought he was above international law.

The Jews

this is so gay compared to the Batman v Superman fight

Cap

the audience for watching

>hurr let's give up all of our autonomy as heroes to the hydra-infested corrupt US government, there's no possible way this plan could backfire!
Tony is retarded. He basically used Cap's argument in Iron Man as a justification for why he shouldn't be obligated to hand over his suit specs to the military.

They both made good points but I sided with Tony's POV better.

the hypocrite that is Captain America

>Tony chimps out and tries to kill Bucky as revenge even after seeing film footage that objectively showed that Bucky did it under mind control, against his will
Defend this

>Who was in the wrong here?
To be honest, both.

Cap, for protecting a war criminal (he got brainwashed, ok... but he's still a criminal in the eyes of any court around the globe). And it's virtually impossible to be a hero while protecting death sworn guys.

Tony for transforming Avengers into gov's puppet. You can't be a hero when your "boss" is one of the baddest guys around, with guys like Ross and shit like that.

In the very end, collateral damage will always happens - they are not gods. The great point here is how they should act like heroes. Vision said that dumb line about power, but it's bullshit (evil will always be around, no matter what).

So, only way the Avengers to exist is going ROGUE, operating in the shadows - almost like Batman did in Year One. At least, in a forced way, Cap did this in the post-scene, going to Wakanda.

How is Captain America a hypocrite

>huuurr we dont keep secrets from the team tony
>oh that... yeah thats different

Cap was wrong
Tony was right

Cap's thing is that he thinks he knows better. That's why he ought to have the power to make unilateral decisions.
He ought to choose how the Avengers are used and who are the bad guys
He chooses whether Tony can handle how his parents really died.

Cap makes choices for other people.

Tony recognizes that people make mistakes, especially him. The Avengers are too powerful to let them make their own decisions. They need oversight.
Even if the government is often wrong, it's the best thing they got

Cap was only protecting Winter Soldier because people wanted to shoot him on sight or return him to Hydra's clutches. The guy needs rehabilitation, not an execution.

>Even if the government is often wrong, it's the best thing they got
But isn't the US a front for Hydra in the MCU?

Captain America view

Lets not allow the UN, which is notorious for not acting, to decide where the most powerful warriors do and do not go. Lets make these decisions ourselves because we are the only ones who truly know what we are capable and not capable of, and our power should not be at the beck and call of a government.

Iron Man view

Remember those two times we literally saved the entire world from complete and utter destruction/ annihilation at the hands of alien race? Well less than 100 people died because of collateral damage so we should totally be reigned in because we are literally Hitler for letting those people die in order to save the entire planet from total annihilation. We are not qualified to decide what our power is to be used for, only a committee of officials who arent even elected and directly represent the interests of their own goverments should decide where we go and what we fight for.
I created Ultron so i will drag every one else down with me when i should be the only one who takes any blame because it was literally all my fault and nobody elses because im a fucking moron.

>he thought he was above international law
They are.
If someone saves the world from total destruction twice i would be inclined to trust them a little more than the god damn UN.

YEAH, LET'S EXPECT TONY TO BE CHILL ABOUT THE GUY STANDING NEXT TO HIM MURDERING HIS PARENTS, GREAT JOB user ARE YOU A BIG TIME SCREENWRITER, DON'T LIE I KNOW YOU ARE

Me, for paying to see this piece of shit. At least it was in a discount theater.

Remember that time Tony created an AI that shutdown the Internet for a few days causing trillions of lost money and how it tried to destroy the world and succeeded in destroying a small country?

>They are.
You don't get a Get-Out-Of-Jail card because you saved a schoolbus once.

Yeah, that only proves that Tony and Tony alone needs to be reigned in by the government because he's too stupid to make the right decisions, not that everyone else on the team is

I'm not really sure, the movie did a complete shit job of explaining what the fucking Accords even contained.

It boiled down to:
Tony: "Accept the Accords 100% or your traitors!"
Cap: "No way, I reject the Accords completely, even though neither of us has even fucking read them!"

There's actually a law that says you can't make new laws that target specific people.

Besides, even if Tony is the bad apple in this generation, what about the next? There will always be more Tonys.
Cap is short sighted and thinks that because he can make the best decisions for everyone, there'll never be a problem.

youtube.com/watch?v=UJ0ZL9s7gQw
>New York
Alien invasion completely stopped by the Avengers, with minimal casualties. Not too mention they saved millions from being nuked by their own government.
>Washington
Cap stops the government from being taken over by a Nazi splinter cell organization, which would have killed millions of American citizens.
>Sokovia
The Avengers stop a threat purely caused by Stark.
>Lagos
Unneeded side casualties by Wanda. The only time (that we see on film) where the Avengers might need to be checked back.
It seems to me that the bigger threats are the American government, and Tony Stark. And funnily enough, they're the ones who agree that everyone else is "too dangerous."
Cap was right.

Hollywood.

what about Wanda fucking up that hospital?

also Tony signed in a hearbeat because of his guilt, he just didnt want to lose the team, he actualmy for the first time in his life had a family and didnt want them to split up, because like Cap said in AoU they can only beat the villains together, but Cap doesnt care so....

The director
The script writer
The cinematographer
The composer
The action choreographers
The actors

Cap is right now, but when he will he make his own "Ultron" level mistake?
No one is perfect forever.

>The guy needs rehabilitation, not an execution.
I know that and agree with you. But... things are not that easy: guy killed people during the years, governments want him dead. So... it's a typicall situation where you can't have the public support, even been right.

About Tony, I'm pretty surprised to see people supporting the deal with government. It's absurd, goes in the opposite direction of being a hero. And Ross was the perfect example: if he don't like the result, put them away into some submerged cell. Zero trust.

That's the reason both were "wrong": Cap, for being too naive about his friends' situation; and Tony for being blind while dealing with snakes more worried about politics and media damage control, not heroism.

That's the reason Avengers can't be accepted as an official group of heroes. Go Rogue is the only option left. T'Challa was the bond to do that.

>Who was in the wrong here?
Anyone who paid to see this garbage """"movie""""

How is the upcoming Black Panther movie going to handle the BUILD WALL mentality of Wakanda?

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH SNAP


ROASTED HARD

No, that was SHIELD. Hydra used Operation Paperclip as an opportunity to infiltrate at the beginning and turn SHIELD into the new face of Hydra so they could operate in secret.

The movie is going to be about Black Panther going "I SEE I WAS WRONG. I CARE NOW." but his country will still stay WALL because you can't have everyone in the MCU flying around in hypernegroid superscience shit

Cap doesn't make Ultron level mistakes

Nah they've definitely got people in the actual government, like that one Senator who was an asshole to Stark. I wouldn't trust the government any more than I could throw them after Winter Soldier.

>he was above international law

No such thing. Dial "international" 911 and call the "international" cops, bitch.

>saved a schoolbus

Stark is the one that screwed everything up. He created an army of killer robots. That's why he signed on as the UN’s bitch. Out of self guilt and self pity. The spoiled billionaire didn't want to suffer the consequences for his actions.

Imagine if it doesn't, and Black Panther remains an unapologetic isolationist for the duration of the movie, and the movie's events prove his position right. How butthurt would people be?

>instead of protecting people let's join the US military and help destabilize the middle east, replace murderous dictators who do a little good for their people with murderous dictators who do nothing good for their people, and help the oil industry use the military for their own gain
Stark sided with money and Cap wanted to help people.

>war criminal (he got brainwashed, ok... but he's still a criminal in the eyes of any court

Then Hawkeye is a "war criminal". I didn't see Stark chimp out over Hawkeye. Because Stark only cares about himself and his feelings.

>Cap doesn't make Ultron level mistakes
That's another bigger point here. Cap got fucked by Witch's explosion, but it was a "minor" tragedy from a battle. Tony's creating Ultron to automate robots while he drinks margaritas with Banner was beyond retarded, prepotent as fuck.

In essence, being a hero is daily self sacrifice: is being in the front lines and getting involved every fucking day - and Tony, with his narcissist mind, never caught it.

>but his country will still stay WALL because you can't have everyone in the MCU flying around in hypernegroid superscience shit
Yes.

marvel

The black lady and msm
>wah you saved the planet but my son died
>HE WUZ A GOOD BOY

Pls do not bully Tony

This movie was an allegory on this divisiveness over gun control, FYI.

Whether you think Bucky is a criminal or just a tool that did hydra's bidding against his will is akin to whether or not you think gun's kill people or people kills people USING guns.

>what about Wanda fucking up that hospital?

Bullshit. The bio terrorist blew up the hospital. If it wasn't for her shield, the entire hospital would have been destroyed. If it wasn't for Captain America and his team, that bioweapon would have killed millions of people. I'm tired of shitheads blaming the crimes of villains on the heroes.

>In essence, being a hero is daily self sacrifice: is being in the front lines and getting involved every fucking day
But that doesn't make a difference

Whether Cap orders people to go invade a country or Tony does it on the beach, it's still a fuck up if they make a mistake.

Like what if Cap "pacifies" a village he thinks is run by Marvel-ISIS but it really turns out to be independent rebels?
Would having Cap do it person made it better than if if was a bunch of Starkbots?

>all of Cap's sins are what-if scenarios
>all of Tony's sins are real
>BUT THEY'RE EQUALLY UNSTABLE, GUYS
epic

He doesn't have to chill out, he just has to agree not to extra-judicially assassinate him right there on the spot.

>hey Tony, I understand you're angry, but you don't have the right to kill this guy, there a mitigating circumstances, and at the very least he needs to stand trial, we're superheroes, not executioners.
>I'm upset, but seeing as I'm meant to embody the goodness and justice of humanity, I agree.

There, the whole last fight doesn't happen

>Tony Stark loses faith in his entire mission because of token "HE DINDU NOTHIN" lady
capeshit has gone to the dogs, I miss Raimi

MUMMY

We're not talking about stability.
We're talking oversight in the decision making process

You should still wear a seatbelt even if the driver has never gotten in an accident before.

Tony changed after Avengers, to the point where he's scared. He's scared of some strange powerful alien unknown, he's scared he'll fail, he's scared he'll let more people die. Everything he does is based off of fear now.

Fuck, I'm talking about capeshit plot points.

This. If police corner a terrorist and he blows himself up rather than be shot, killing some people, you don't blame the fucking cops provoking him or some shit.

>Cap is right now, but when he will he

"Punishment comes after the crime."

Rodgers.

>Would having Cap do it person made it better than if if was a bunch of Starkbots?

Cap has morals, Starkbots don't.

So you're saying that he's not fit to be a hero anymore?

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Yeah but Cap think he's killing bad guys.
He got bad intelligence.

He doesn't have an objective "goodness" meter
He's killing Arabs with AKs regardless. It just turns out these are OUR Arabs with AKs

>If someone saves the world from total destruction twice i would be inclined to trust them a little more than the god damn UN.

/thread

Well, it's clear that Cap is a decent guy who always tries to do the right thing (according to him). Besides this Civil War BS movies, has there been a time when you questioned Cap? Tony on the other had has been a fuck up in all of his movies. I'd have to say that I trust Cap's judgment over Tony's.Cap was right.

The Sakovia Accords were International Law.

>I'm upset, but seeing as I'm meant to embody the goodness and justice of humanity, I agree.

I can't tell if you're being serious right now.

How many people do you think would respond with that kind of presence of mind in the immediate moments after just watching the video of their parents being murdered?

Reminder that Tony was right in the comics because Cap was just part of Hydra trying to fracture the heroes

Both were in the wrong, but Iron Man moreso.

>Hurr Cap was protecting a War Criminal

Cap was protecting a man he knew was ultimately innocent due to brainwashing, as he knew he would get a kangaroo court.

People think Captain America's some law abiding goodie two shoes but thats never been the case. He's always been Chaotic Good or Neutral Good over lawful good. People just assume otherwise because of the character's history, just like they assume he's some jingoistic warmonger when thats not the case.

He should have told Tony about his parents, that was bad, but it was a messy situation to even bring up in the first place.

Someone who has the responsibility of a world leader. That's one of the qualities you look for in a man who's job governs the livelihood and well-being of billions of people.

Stark caused all the problems in Avengers 2, and yet he tried to take the "high ground" like a true hypocrite. Cap's operation in Civil War was a US government operation, so why would it spark controversy about vigilantes?

Iron Man hasn't been sympathetic since the first film; he was basically the villain of Age of Ultron. In his position, I would find the Bucky reaction justified, but everything else is his fault.

>hey cap who avengers the avengers?
>FUCK YOU TONY I DON'T NEED TO REGULATIONS I'M GOING TO GO WHERE EVER THE FUCK I WANT WHENEVER I WANT AND DO WHATEVER I WANT

Jesus christ cap, relax.

You mean like this world leader did?

Spoken like a true dictator. You are a future rapist, user. It's time to remove your rape tool and castrate you.

Just because its understandable doesn't mean you're in the right.

What did he mean by this?

Black Panther didn't know that Bucky was brainwashed, and after he did he stopped trying to kill him and is shown in the end of the movie donating Wakanda's facilities in pursuit of an anti-brainwashing cure. What were you trying to prove here?

Has this been retconned yet?

Captain America spent two movies fighting tyrannical government corruption, of course he doesn't want those "checks and balances" restricting him from helping people.

I have to ask what the point of the UN regulations even are? The UN can't do shit regardless, how are they going to stop a team of superheroes? Captain America decimated a top security underwater prison by himself in order to free his teammmates, and thats without even his shield.

What the fuck would the UN do if Thor decided he didn't give a shit about the UN saying he can't go stop some cosmic threat until the paperwork clears?

They pulled the trigger on civil war too soon.

It's still going on

That's not exactly an ounce, now is it

How are they going to reassemble the team in time for Infinity War? Are they going to dedicate a movie to it, or will the first half of Infinity War be Avengers: Reconciliation? Doing the latter would be a huge mistake but I don't see anything in the Marvel lineup that would allow for the former.

The UN is a joke. There is no "international" government. I'll say it again. Dial "international" 911 and call the "international" cops, bitch.

That would be an excellent idea for Civil War 2. Evil George Soros has his UN declare itself the world government. The UN orders Stark and his lackey to attack any country that refuses. Captain America sides with the people and creates a resistance movement. Wolverines!

Imagine somone killing yours parents (especially your beloved mother) under hypnose standing next to you decades after saying "chill bro, this wasn't myself lol", what would you do, faggot ?

Before I watched this I was so convinced that Tony is going to be the one fucking things up. Turned out that they reversed expectations and made him sympathetic.

Is Thor even subject to Earth Law or is he given the equivalent to planetary Diplomatic Immunity for so long as he represents Asgard?

This this this

It's like you fucking missed the first minutes of this movie.

That's lame.

Did you even watch the movie? He doesn't quit his quest for vengeance because "Oh, he was brainwashed? Never mind then." He stopped once he realized what kind of man it would make him in watching Zemo's similar quest for vengeance.

The point is that even someone like T'Challa who is, in fact, a world leader and a very capable one is still prone to behaving emotionally. People have limits. It's unrealistic to expect people act entirely on principle and reason in the wake of literally watching a loved one die in front of them.

You're kidding yourself with this whole HURR DURR TONY SHOULD HAVE JUST CALMED THE FUCK DOWN idiocy. That shit is easy to say from the comfort of your mom's basement.

Cap was a fool for going against the world to save his friend. yes Bucky was brainwashed and everything that happened was against his will, but still. Cap is an idiot.

Stark is a fool for thinking being under Govt control was a good idea.

Disintegrate.

>How are they going to reassemble the team in time for Infinity War

They don't have to. Thanos invades Earth. The real Avengers fight him and lose. Stark's team sits at home and watches it on CNN, while unelected UN weasels decide what to do.

Iron man was never an hero, that was always Tony Stark in advanced armor making shit for his gigantic ego.

>HURR DURR TONY SHOULD HAVE JUST CALMED THE FUCK DOWN

No ones saying this. Tony's reaction was perfectly understandable. The thread is about who was in the RIGHT.

If I watched some idiot hit my kid with his car by mistake and I chimped out and murdered him, my reaction would be perfectly understandable but only an idiot would say I'm in the right.

I'm pretty sure since those papers were designed to restrict superhuman interference they apply to Thor. And Hulk, and everyone else.

You, because you watch capeshit

Is the ultimate endgame of the MCU to have Stark resign as Iron Man, citing that he is mentally unfit for the job?

Infinity War has DOUBLE the amount of characters this movie had, which was packed to begin with.

Are they bringing in GotG to the Avengers party?