"You can't keep doing this! You can't keep doing shitty things and then feel bad about yourself like that makes it okay, you need to be better!"
"Bojack, just stop. You are all the things that are wrong with you. It's not the alcohol or the drugs or any of the shitty things that happened to you in your career or when you were a kid. It's you. Alright.. it's you..... Fuck man, what else is there to say."
Todd did have a point and somebody did need to tell Bojack that but it was a dick move to blame all the bad shit during Bojack's childhood on him. His parents were fucking monsters
Todd didn't say that.
He said that Bojack is responsible for his own actions and he can't keep blaming his parents like it excuses his actions.
This was retarded, she wanted to have sex with him, it wasn't like when Bojack was trying to sleep with Penny or anything, jesus. Plus Todd didn't care about banging her anyway so?
Todd wasn't saying that Bojack's terrible childhood and how his parents treated him was his own fault, he was saying that he shouldn't use it as scapegoat for everything he's done wrong as an adult.
Oh okay thanks for clearing that up for me. Well did Todd literally did nothing wrong
I think it was just that Bojack didn't care enough to really consider Todd's feelings in the situation. He just caught Emily on the rebound and left it at that.
Definitely not the worst thing he's done this season, but it's another example of acting without really thinking about it.
That isn't the point. The point is that Bojack immediately turned to blaming other things for his problems and feeling sorry for himself rather than reflecting on what he did. Todd was sick of hearing it.
why is it so serious
Why does nobody in the show challenge Bojack's atheistic nihilistic assumptions? Nobody. Not one person in the show. Even Mr. Peanutbutter outright admits his own nihilistic outlook when he gives the "nothing matters so we should distract ourselves' talk to Diane.
Everyone talks to Bojack like its just a matter of personal flaws, leaving his nihilistic presuppositions about the meaningless of life that cause him to seek gratification through material avenues untouched.
Why?
They live in LA and work in the entertainment industry. They are all horribly jaded
Bojack's monologue in the planetarium was ironically hopeful in a way. Acknowledging that regardless of the fact that they'd all be forgotten someday that it didn't invalidate what happiness one could find at the present moment in time.
The show will end with Bojack's suicide right?
I think it's more likely he'll cause his own death either through pissing someone off or negligence
I think it's agreed that that would be way too obvious.
Some other character committing suicide, while Bojack makes it out alive? Now that would be a twist.
because nihilism is truth
Yes but turns out he faked it so he could finally get away from everything and everyone.
How bad is it that I deeply identify with Bojack?
I feel the same way so it's hard to tell
probably not good
>it that I deeply identify with Bojack?
A lot of people do. Everyone has that part of them that wants to wallow in self pity when something bad happens.
We secretly fear that Bojack is what would happen to us if we had the resources to indulge in our self pity without consequence indefinitly
I actually really like this idea. Bojack escapes his life in Hollywood and settles down in some secluded rural area. Then the final line of the series is some random hillbilly coming up to him and says "Hey, aren't you the horse from Horsin' Around?"
Because being a nihilist isn't justification for being a self destructive a-hole.
People do tell him that seeking gratification through material avenues is wrong and that he needs to stop pushing people away emotionally.
But he keeps ignoring them and instead keeps trying to get gratification from material avenues while trying to keep everyone at emotional arms length.
most people do, retard
that's why the show is so beloved
>have naive hope
>naive hope is obliterated
>settle for whatever you can scrape together
>act like an ass to the world in retribution
I used to feel the same but now I identify more with Diane, can't tell if that's better or just as bad.
>We secretly fear that Bojack is what would happen to us if we had the resources to indulge in our self pity without consequence indefinitly
this
that's one of the major attractions of shows like this, you can see how bad it would get, except with other people
I also feel better about myself seeing others be incredible failures that eclipse anything I've ever done
i do not , he is literally a pussy
Hejust need to accept he is a bad person and don't be a baby and accept their actions , he is a literally piece of shit
3 seasons in and he still blame everyone but him for his actions.
I was so happy after i accept all the shitty things i did. Is one of the first steps of happiness.
I remember thinking Bojack was going to spend more time with Todd this season after finally learning to appreciate him at the end of the last one. Instead, he ignores him, fucks his potential girlfriend, and then this.
Todd might be the only person who can teach Bojack to be happy, and he's about to ruin that.
Todd should have fucked Emily instead of being so selfish and level-headed.
Tho, I suspect that part of the reason why he didn't is that he knew he was a loser and didn't want to ruin things for her. But fuck that.
This doesn't answer my question.
The writers deliberately avoid philosophically challenging Bojack. Why?
They do.
He just ignores or avoids the challenges and goes off to get wasted and chase the next thing he thinks is going to make him happy.
>identify with a character
>the character tries to kill himself
I know this feel
???
Todd's asexual
was anybody as pissed at the final episode as I was?
Todd coming out as "nothing" was pretty unnecessary, even for a setup it leads to nothing because he's not into anything
also wild horses don't look majestic at all when they're just a bunch of dirty homeless men running around in the deserts outside of LA
but I guess that's the joke
>This entire post
Are you a literal retard?
They don't.
Nobody does. Charlotte could have been used to highlight an alternative to that nihilistic made of thinking, but they did the same thing with her that they do with everyone: accuse Bojack of PERSONAL flaws.
There isn't ONE CHARACTER in the ENTIRE SHOW who challenges the materialism of the cast.
Is it too late for Bojack?
Is it took late for me?
Is it too late for any of us?
I really hated that line from PB. He of all people should know that material possessions or fame don't make you happy since he has such flagrant disregard for his own wealth and doesn't care about being famous.
>Is it too late for any of us?
>implying you won't ever not be broken
>implying you can fix it
that's what makes PB so lovable
he's so genuine there's absolutely no depth to him, he doesn't have the tools to operate on a deeper level
Everyone's a little bit Bojack. Hell, to advertise Season 4, they should make reflective posters with the words "You are Bojack" and post them everywhere. Maybe even splurge for a billboard, just as a goof. Although, I guess it would actually be illegal.
>Girlfriend who loves you
>acting in your dream role
Neither of those things are material possessions or fame
He has a penis. He should do his friend a solid and plow her.
I'd fucking lose my shit if Pepe and Wojack got a cameo in the show. Could you fucking imagine?
The nihilism isn't his problem. He's not the only nihilist on the show.
And PB straight up challenges it. He never values shit over his friends and isn't an asshole despite having a nihilistic outlook.
>I really hated that line from PB. He of all people should know that material possessions or fame don't make you happy since he has such flagrant disregard for his own wealth and doesn't care about being famous.
Of course he knows that. When he says "distractions" he's not talking about materialism or fame. He means actually living life.
PB isn't happy because he's famous or wealthy or never feels bad or has gained some greater meaning to/place in the world/universe.
He's happy because he chooses to be and takes advantage of opportunities to try new things, and is caring and supportive and communicative with his family and friends.
People who keep discounting PB because he doesn't seem "deep" are doing the same shit that Bojack and Diane are doing.
if they do I'm coming personally to kill you
fuck you
Why can't they just let Kelsey have her movie?
Because an unflinching look at the successes and failures of Secretariat wouldn't sell
It seems everybody loves Mr. Peanut Butter but for some reason I hate him. I don't know why but he's my least favorite character on the show and I don't get it because he's actually the most genuine person on the show
>not knowing his genuine joy reflects your misery
you will never be happy, user
Because he says yes to everything, indulges every stupid idea/whim and everything always works out for him?
PB is the person who has it easy in life
>He never values shit over his friends and isn't an asshole
I meant materialist in the philosophical sense, not in the 'consumerist' way.
Being Princess Carolyn is pain
My least favorite would have to be Todd. He fluctuates between serious and comical to extremely and his stupidity breaks immersion sometimes.
>Getting lost in a hotel
>Somehow competent to run a million dollar business for months
>Gives away his fortune as a tip
I don't know how else to describe it, but he is very clearly a 20 something year old who's just too free.
>Hollywoo's Stars and Celebrities!
>What do they know?
>Do they know things?
>Let's find out!
>Well... We found out. My work is complete.
>mfw
PB is a person who chooses not to get caught in depression spirals and has people who encourage him to stay away from them, like when his brother told him that worrying wouldn't help anything anyway.
So Bojack is essentially a horse version of Jim Lahey but only rich right?
She invites the pain in.
The best thing Bojack ever did for her was fire her. She changed her life and was actually happy. But she couldn't help herself and got involved in the entertainment industry again.
Bojack, Diane and PC are all self destructive in their own ways.
That is true.
He is also amazingly lucky and getting by on good looks and natural charm
Why philosophically challenge him? His philosophical views are both right, and irrelevant
Why would that be illegal?
>How bad is it that I deeply identify with Bojack?
I do the same.
What happens to people like us eventually?
Giant mirrors pointed at highways are an accident waiting to happen (just like in the show)
When the sun strikes the reflective surface just right, the glare would make driving impossible.
>He is also amazingly lucky and getting by on good looks and natural charm
Are you suggesting that if PB had never ended up being a wealthy celebrity that he'd be unhappy?
Because a mirror on a billboard is just asking for solar-blinded drivers causing a major accident, possibly even getting people killed.
No. I'm just saying some people might resent the character for always having success fall into his lap despite doing stupid shit
Fair. Not sure why this didn't occur to me actually.
If they were right, the writers wouldn't need to purposely avoid challenging them
>No. I'm just saying some people might resent the character for always having success fall into his lap despite doing stupid shit
But so does Bojack. Had a best selling book, had Diane, had his dream role, keeps having people trying to help him, so on and so forth.
That's the thing. Bojack and PB are pretty much in the same boat. The difference is that Bojack thinks that it'll make him happy so he treats everyone like shit and wallows in all his failings while PB actually treats people well and pursues his own happiness.
PB is anti-Bojack.
That doesn't make any sense, user.
If a character believes the sky is blue, it's not an indication that they're wrong if the writers don't challenge them on this belief.
Your example doesn't make sense.
We're talking about philosophical concepts not measurable phenomenon. If the philosophy of Bojack was iron-clad they wouldn't need to go out of their way to avoid challenging it.
Instead they let him exist in a contrived world where there is no alternative. Where nobody with an opposing philosophy is allowed to exist.
>Bojack and PB are pretty much in the same boat
Maybe now, but we've never really learned much of Mr. Peanutbutter's life before "Mr. Peanutbutter's House", while we know for a fact that BoJack's life has sucked since birth. It's possible that Mr. Peanutbutter's childhood lacked the kind of trauma that BoJack's fragile little mind had been so warped by.
Really, BoJack doesn't need fame or money to be happy. What he needs is a psychiatrist, possibly even an extended stay at a psych ward. But, Hollywoo being Hollywoo, there's no way he'll get the treatment he needs, not when his mug would be plastered on the cover of every tabloid out there for so much as going to see a shrink.
It's a show, not a philosophy class. They don't need to go out of their way to include an Existentialist Eel or a Stoic Squirrel or a goddamn Negative Hedonist Newt to balance out the philosophical balance of the show. It wouldn't add anything entertaining or affecting, to make a good show you need to keep it from bloating
The only problem I have with Todd explicitly being asexual (as opposed to implicitly) is that both sides of the SJW/POL coin are going to make it a way bigger deal than it should ever be in the series proper, because Todd is the most incidental character in the show. He's a B-Plot made flesh. His sexuality (or lack thereof I guess) has never contributed to the show in any capacity and I hope that the blowback (positive and negative) that comes as a result of his "outing" doesn't influence writers to make it an actually prominent aspect of his character.
Can you give me an example of the writers going out of their way to avoid this subject
PB saves
The point of the show isn't to disassemble Bojack's philosophy. It's to show that he can hold the philosophy and not be a dick about it.
There's plenty of "you have an immortal soul and the universe cares about you and wants you to be happy so you should be nice" stuff on other shows.
The whole point of Bojack is that the universe is an uncaring, uncontrolled, and ultimately shitty place and that everyone's ultimate fate is an eternity of nothingness... but that doesn't mean you have to be a self destructive and unhappy asshole.
I didn't like him much during the first season, until we get a glimpse of how his upbeat demeanor is an attempt to repress heavy negative feelings. Now I think he and Diane have a good dynamic.
>until we get a glimpse of how his upbeat demeanor is an attempt to repress heavy negative feelings
He doesn't repress them. He has them just like anyone else. He gets mad and calls people out on bullshit and gets sad and mopey sometimes and does have emotions.
But when bad shit isn't actually happening, he's not sitting around and being mopey or self destructive because bad things in general exist the same way Bojack and Diane do.
So will we finally get the episode in Season 4 where Mr. Peanut Butter's world comes crashing down and then he just fucking snaps? I want to see Mr. Peanut Butter snap like Ned Flanders did in "Hurricane Neddy"
Would've got Bojack his oscar though
We keep posting user, we keep posting.
What about when he sat Bojack down on national television and pretty much just laid everything out on the table? Just because he isn't going ballistic doesn't mean he doesn't care.
The problem I have with this is that the writers have constructed this incredibly contrived world to showcase his self-destructive nihilism but then shirk at defending it. It can only exist within the carefully constructed confines of his cartoons world where nobody is allowed to offer an alternative view. It's shallow.
'The Non-denominational Winter Day' is one of the most overt examples of writing away a potential challenge to Bojack's worldview with irrelevance. But it's mainly what the artists DON'T write. Charlotte could have been used an alternative to Bojack's nihilistic convictions, instead they used her just to abuse Bojack himself for his personal/character flaws, sidestepping a potential philosophical challenge.
Everyone else tacitly accepts or agrees with the rest of Bojack's nihilism even the happy-go-lucky PB and Todd. The writers make no room for any philosophical dissent.
How did she go from likable, level-headed and a nice person to a complete and utter bitch and somehow more unlikable than Bojack?
Not just Dianne, but Wanda as well.
>How did she go from likable, level-headed and a nice person to a complete and utter bitch and somehow more unlikable than Bojack?
I don't know, tell me when that happened
Why was this season so shit? The show is generally shit but why was this season so much worse in particular?
Like really, nothing happens. Bojack barely has any character development, if anything he ends up going backwards. It's like they forgot the whole "It gets better but you have to do it everyday!" and the good things in season 2. He also takes a backseat to most of the other shit going on which really pisses me off because I only watch the show for him.
I watch the show to get sad but even the sad notes just felt shoe horned in there to keep the show moving.
And what the fuck was the deal with the publicist?
and don't mistake me for saying "THEY HAVE TO PROVE BOJACK WRONG". It's not about being wrong or right with philosophical concepts. It's the fact that no other dissenting view is allowed in Bojack Horseman. The writers contrive to exclude anything that might be an alternative to bojack's nihilism.
His nihilism is made shallow by the fact that it's left complete unchallenged. He never has to come to point where struggles with his own beliefs or at least reinforces them against the world. The struggles in Bojack are made out to be entirely personal, totally ignoring the philosophical side to his misery.
What even the fuck do you want user? If you think the show is shit what are you watching it for?
Season 2 since they are still struggling to find a purpose for her now that "Bojack's broken pixie dream girl" is out of the question.
It doesn't always work out though. PB has pissed away a fuck-ton of money. His accountant had his company declare bankruptcy last season. The colanders worked out, but Smoodies? Fawaffels? The all year Halloween store/deathtrap?
Conversely, I'd bet Bojack probably still has a fair chunk of whatever he's earned. 9 seasons at $50K an episode buys a fucking long time sitting at home getting drunk.
I don't know about that. PB's: "It's going to be great, as it always is, from my perspective" as he's carting off his screaming accountant is a great line. Because PB usually isn't thinking about what will make the other person happy. He's thinking about whatever his project or enthusiasm is. Diane probably didn't want the "D". Hell it's not entirely clear the marriage was a good idea for he.
Bojack often does think about other people. That's the interesting thing about the character, and what makes him be watchable despite everything. You get the sense that Bojack always knows what he's doing is a bad idea, but he's just too fundamentally weak and broken to do anything differently.
Of course this is just the human condition and it is all as old as balls:
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I don't think she's worse than Bojack, but she had a pretty painful reality check when she realized that she wouldn't be able to make a big difference and help people in war torn countries like she had hoped. Now with her long-term goals dashed she's trying to find ways to keep her life from going stagnant.
>The problem I have with this is that the writers have constructed this incredibly contrived world to showcase his self-destructive nihilism but then shirk at defending it. It can only exist within the carefully constructed confines of his cartoons world where nobody is allowed to offer an alternative view. It's shallow.
Don't confuse people having existential viewpoints with nihilism. The world of the series is definitely cynical and whatnot, but the existence of characters who AREN'T nihilist is enough challenge to this philosophy Bojack himself holds.
The show is working off a post-modern philosophical basis, off the idea that nothing matters and the universe is vast and uncaring. If you're not religious, this is not philosophy. It's fact. But this sort of existential emptiness doesn't necessarily imply nihilism. If that's what bothers you, then the only way to fix it is to introduce God somehow.
The philosophical elements come from how the characters find meaning in their lives under this framework. People like PB just don't think about it, The dead writer and CW and Diane find it by trying to improve the world, etc. Todd and PB are epicurians, while Bojack is hedonistic.
But that's not the point of the show. There are a varying amount of worldviews, each with their happy and unhappy adherents. The point is that it doesn't matter, and whatever your beliefs there's a way to be happy.
>but then shirk at defending it
They're not trying to defend his self destructive behavior.
And they have no interest in trying to justify/challenge the fact that people are nihilists.
But characters do repeatedly challenge Bojack's self destructive behavior and the show in no way paints it in a good light.
>>'The Non-denominational Winter Day' is one of the most overt examples of writing away a potential challenge to Bojack's worldview with irrelevance. But it's mainly what the artists DON'T write.
What, like a "The Magic of Christmas" episode?
>>Everyone else tacitly accepts or agrees with the rest of Bojack's nihilism even the happy-go-lucky PB and Todd.
Of the recurring characters, of which there's only really 5 (Bojack, PB, Dianne, Todd, and PC). But Bojack has also been lectured by Herb, Wanda, Cuddly Whiskers, and by random people like the lady he talked to on the phone and the jogging baboon.
The point of the show isn't to examine whether Bojack's broad general philosophical outlook on the ultimate nature of reality is right or wrong.
It's about whether he can be a decent functional person because of/despite it.
Just like the show is never going to explore whether or not sex outside of the context of marriage or doing illegal drugs/smoking/drinking alcohol is morally right or wrong.
Why the fuck did Princess Carolyn get a new job that's the same as her old job that made her miserable for over 20 years? This pissed me off so much. She finally met somebody who was actually interested in her and she fucks him over to be miserable again. Why were all the fucking characters in season 3 so fucking stupid and more unlikable?
Bojack's parents are a non-factor. We don't know enough about Bojack's father. But his mother? We know she's a recluse who doesn't interact with many if any people. Bojack on the other hand actively gets out there......to destroy innocent lives. And this habit of Bojack's has been going on for decades.
Mr Peanutbutter fully admits to carrying a nihilistic spin on things, but that doesn't stop him from striving to live as happy and productive life as possible.
Princess Carolyn is a workaholic who lets her business consume her, fully admitting it's all bullshit, but that doesn't stop her from making the most out of that love style and enjoying it.
Bojack is addicted to his sadness and melancholy, there is no excuse for his behavior
That was great but I kinda hoped they'd introduce his son Matt
like, what the hell do you want man, i'm not sure what you want? do you want Season 4 to be BoJack sitting in a room ruminating about the meaning of life for twelve episodes?
bojack runs away from challenges and risks. that's his character. if his philosophic beliefs get challenged he'll just mask his doubt with drunken beligerence. maybe he'll be forced to shape up with this whole apparent long-lost daughter storyline but i dunno
i'm sorry man but i really don't understand what kind of situation you want from the show