Veganism

Forget about the morality of it. But is really true that if we lived solely off of farms that it'd help stimulate the economy and be more cost effective (after the initial loss of revenue and potential economic collapse). Wouldn't this also help with global warming due to the fact that we'd no longer be over-breeding cows and so the methane they produce would be severely decreased?

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please rewrite that post because it's really hard to understand what you're trying to say
>we'd no longer be over-breeding cows
who is over breeding cows?

How would it create jobs? Pretty sure there is more work to care for animals than just plants

Farmers and stock breeders. For their meat.
Never said it'd create more jobs, just be more cost effective. For the exact reason that it is more difficult to take care of livestock.

They're not over produced. they're producing enough to supply the demand in cattle or dairy products.

I still can't tell what your OP is trying to say. your first part of the post is pro-farming, but the second half is why it's good to end farming?

Not overproduced in the sense of supply and demand but in the sense that the amount of cows being produced to meet that supply produces too much methane and is kind of an ineffective system.

Ending farming in the sense of using livestock, not agriculture.

>the amount of cows being produced to meet that supply produces too much methane
pretty sure this is just a meme, but even if it were true, you can't just release the cows and let them do what they want. They have no natural predators in NA (not in the prairies at least) and are domesticated animals. they would most likely over populate themselves, and i'm pretty sure that's going to cause far more methane than in a human-controlled environment

The methane thing is not a meme. I doubt their natural breeding would even compare to the amount of breeding we make them do. Though that could be a problem.

Before letting them go, we could massively deplete their population and gain a massive supply of meat from that and keep it in a reserve. Hopefully, that would help soften any economic problems that could be caused by this. It will also help the population of cows be controlled.

30 years ago it was global cooling

20 years ago it was acid rain

10 years ago it was rising CO2

Now it's methane.

These faggots come up with something new whenever their ideas are discredited.

Carbon dioxide and methane can both contribute to global warming, you know. They're not mutually exclusive.

Not even the crux of my argument either.

We've been eating meat for 250k years dude. Stfu

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The crux of your argument is still unprovable. Not to mention the increased CO2 that will be produced supplying the worlds population with a significantly increased supply of grains and vegetables.

The leaf is making good points. What the fuck are you even trying to say?

>But is really true that if we lived solely off of farms that it'd help stimulate the economy and be more cost effective

We do live off of farms. Are you trying to be specific to a certain method of farming, e.g. "factory farming" or maybe some other form of intensive farming?

>Wouldn't this also help with global warming due to the fact that we'd no longer be over-breeding cows and so the methane they produce would be severely decreased?

No. If you're concerned about the release of "chemicals" (methane is completely natural, it comes from organic organisms and is dealt with organically) you should be much more concerned about industrial chemical usage. Farming itself hardly scratches the surface of pollution.

Just be a vegetarian, all the benefits of veganism but you get to eat ice cream and eggs

Cows and Chickens are the only animals needed

It's unprovable which is why it's a hypothetical. True.
Livestock. I'm talking about a 100% agriculturally based society.

i think you're underestimating their natural breeding cycle. deer would be overpopulating us if it werent for the fact that
>A) we hunt them
>B) they live in forests that predators also live in
cows live on pastures in massive herds. they have no natural predators there, unless humans started hunting them (which brings us back to square 1)

So why not focus on things that will actually make a difference? Seems like focusing on fossil fuel usage and industrial pollution would have a much greater short term and long term benefit. And specifically, what percentage of methane produced by animals on a daily basis is produced by factory-farmed cows?

I guess I'd be fine with meat-eating as long as animal farming doesn't dominate the economy.

We just need to make cows wear a special methane harvesting rig, so farms can produce both beef and capture that lost methane energy. Boom, problem solved.

It was just a side-point. My main concern is how it affects the food-based industries.

Fair enough.

Look up the definition of agriculture and you'll find it contains livestock.

If I follow your definition of a 100% agriculturally based society then you're talking about a completely agrarian culture, meaning no industry. I think you mean agriculture without livestock.

It's a stupid idea. Humans have been enjoying animal products for a very long time and our bodies capitalize on the nutrients from flesh and animal products in a manner that we cannot do so with vegetables. Eating meat, eggs, and other animal products is ok, user. You should be making an argument for "natural" (very deliberate quotes here) farming.

I don't think you understand how much landmass it would take to feed everyone on vegetables. There are hardly any calories in vegetables. You need a shit ton to survive. One cow will feed you for months.

"UHMMM COWS HAVE FEELINGS TOO! FUCKING CARNIST SHIT LORD!
VEGANS ARE HEALTHIER THAN MURDER EATERS!!!" *Struggles to lift protest sign up*

>I think you mean agriculture without livestock.
Yeah, that's what I meant.

I'm pretty sure every kind of nutrient in meat can be found in vegetables. What I don't know is the relative (and theoretical) cost differences between producing these kinds of vegetables to meet healthy standards of every country vs. setting up farms with animals that need to be fed, etc, etc.

OP, you're assuming that all land uses are equally productive in terms of food yield. For some biomes grazing is the only feasible means of large-scale food production.

Besides that, your reasoning implies that the efficiency of food production outweighs any and all other factors, such as quality of life. By your logic we should determine what food(s) produce the least impact on the environment while still providing complete nutrition and abandon all others for the exclusive cultivation of those foods. Hope you like Brussels sprouts.

Let me draw some parallels here, too, to a diet without animals and our own current method of energy production.

There is a reason we still mine coal and pump oil out of the ground. We can harvest energy from the sun and wind but we don't do so. Why? Well it's terrible inefficient, especially in comparison. If you could imagine meat to the body is like oil to the economy. It is ultra concentrated energy in an efficient, ready to use package for your digestive system. Humans have lived off of a diet of mainly meat in many places in the world hunting mega-fauna. The production of meat in factory farms is an incredibly efficient way to get this meat to a huge number of people. If you can find a way to feed the billions of people on this planet with a different method then the world will be unquestionably in your eternal debt.

I'm not going to be proofreading my posts now so sorry if there are some gaps in logic in what I'm trying to say. I will happily clarify.

supposedly red-pilled people defending outmoded and destructive industries and the billions and billions of taxpayer money they get -sad. vegan is so much better and to the extent the not so great products of former animal agriculture will be produced they should be made with cellular agriculture.

I think I'm starting to understand your argument, that animals are a middle-man since we have to feed them food that we could just be eating ourselves, and that raising animals also adds an environmental impact that wouldn't be present otherwise.

is this correct?

I'm not sure how much of that is hyperbole but the cow also has to be fed and managed which is rather costly.
I'm not even a "moral" vegan fag. Just saying.
I'm not making a definitive statement here. I'm trying to weigh out which would be most cost-effective in a situation where they both meet normal health standards.
The environmental part is a minor thing in comparison to the costs of managing animals but, yeah, basically.

I haven't even pointed to this yet but it's a terribly important point. There is a huge amount of land, especially in the US, that isn't fit for intense farming. Grazing livestock on it is a remarkable efficient way to get food energy from the land. Like a more efficient modern harvest of buffalo on the great plains.

It always amazes me how much there is to the US. You can drive hours and only see cattle grazing in distant herds. Pretty cool place.

I'm always so confused by this argument. I've had to go through stages of literal starvation in training. When you taste meat... Fuck when you just smell it... You know strength and energy is going to be back in your body. I could never not eat meat.

>I'm not making a definitive statement here. I'm trying to weigh out which would be most cost-effective in a situation where they both meet normal health standards.

(a) that is a definitive statement; (b) "normal health standards" aren't the only metric that defines quality of life.

I was confused as to what you meant by lived solely off of farms but then I remember americans scoff down hormone pumped garbage from factory farms every day from animals tortured for their entire lives

A few points on this.
Humans evolved to require animal foods to thrive. No matter what your vegan websites say, this is a fact. There are no cultures or pockets of humanity that are totally vegan or totally avoid animal foods. (in the ancient world at least)

Secondly, growing plants for human consumption is inefficient because you end up with a monoculture. Our current non-animal food production, again, regardless of what any vegan might tell you, is shit for the environment. Basically the instant we run out of oil (fossil fuel fertilisers), the land is fucked.

The thing about cows and other ruminants is that they exist as part of an ecosystem. Look at the US before colonisation- millions of buffalo. Not really a problem, they eat the grass and grow, they shit and die on the grass, theres an ecosystem.

And the thing about our population as a whole is that it's propped up by fossil fuels. We take the energy from the fossil fuels and put it into food production. Theres no ecosystem based way we can feed our population.

>but then I remember americans scoff down hormone pumped garbage from factory farms every day from animals tortured for their entire lives

What, is that not halal?

I'm not telling you that this is right then? What else would define this?

>What else would define this?

Do you live your life making choices that optimize your health at all times? Why are you posting on an anime messageboard right now? Don't you think you should be up exercising?

just need to get rid of some of the people.

I buy a half a cow and a pig every year and store it in my freezer. That usually lasts my family of 5 all year especially if I get a deer during hunting season.

Im not about to give up my porterhouse steak. If anything all welfare fags should be barred from purchasing any meat that isnt chicken.

How would this kind of thing be affected by the amount of farming in a society?

>pretty sure ever nutrient in meat

No, not in notable quantities. Not only that but you're assuming the affordability of that nutrients consumption in comparison to meat. B12 is a great example that humans can ONLY get from animals or arificial means. There are a litany of other nutrients that you will not be able to find in a purely plant based diet. This is why it's so important to talk to a doctor (preferably a dietitian) before making a DRAMATIC change to an otherwise healthy diet. Vegans and vegetarians almost universally need to supplement their diets that has only recently been possible. This supplementation is not an inexpensive option and is impractical for the general population.

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Oh, OK.

>How would this kind of thing be affected by the amount of farming in a society?

Why are people currently eating more meat than they need/should?

I guess.

You're a real fuck, OP. I hope you now realize that starting a thread when you're high is a bad idea. If you're going to take a controversial stance and then try to express it's merits you should learn it's merits first. Whatever, fuck it. Fucking hippies make me sick. Go get a haircut.

That cow is cute as fugg :3

Nah, I'm not a hippy. I'm about as right-winged as can be. I'm just open-minded? And also being kind of stupid.

youtube.com/watch?v=uwKrtNr76BM

I only got the idea because of this faggot. Call him out on this if you want to.

This month I've only eaten meat.

Not exaggerating.

100℅ meat. Chicken, beef, sausage.

Yum!

Why don't you move to PooInLoo land and live amongst those vegetarians?

Gross oversimplifications are common. Buying soda is unnecessary because it isn't fucking water. You should only drink water, beer, and maybe milk if you really feel like it. Other than that fuck all (juice can be ok, too, not too much).

This guy is an idiot and he's pandering to his audience. There is nothing wrong with eating meat and there is nothing wrong with being a vegan. Don't try and proselytize or deny the natural diet of humans, though. Eat meat, eggs, and cheese. Every one of your ancestors did so and they got you here. Try and emulate a diet that is before your time and you'll be ok. That universally doesn't involve cutting out meat (get rid of sodas, chips, candy, all that bullshit).

I have sex with cows.

This is in the same vein but has much more content on the subject.

youtube.com/watch?v=F6seIQ8rLp8

Nah, I like soda and energy drinks. It was never a dietary thing. I'm only concerned with economics.
Simply ebin.

anyone in here pretending to know is a fucking moron.

at the end of the day, you need a certain amount of energy, regardless of source.

whether or not it is more efficient way to produce that amount of energy on a mass scale is a bit beyond the abilities of a chinese image board.

I don't know. The counterarguments they made were pretty sound.

Your'e right. None of us have the numbers in front of us regarding exactly how much energy input it takes to make a purely vegetarian world vs an omnivorous world. However, we do know that humans need many nutrients that are found exclusively in animals (as we need some products found exclusively in plants). You can conclude that people need a varied diet or need serious supplementation in B12 or polyunsaturated fats in the case of a vegetarian diet. Economically supplements for these products are an extra cost in comparison to getting these nutrients from ones diet.

Sorry forgot link

youtube.com/watch?v=bvNLFpwAdBc

Live off of farms as in crop farms? Yes. Eating plant-based food is far more efficient than eating animal-based food.

Sounds wasteful as fuck desu, unless you're regularly gulping down pints of lard
>using protein as energy
the fuck is wrong with you?

Yea it is literally impossible for the whole world to go vegan, no one who starts one of these threads has ever been on a farm in their lives. Without animals you have to use shit tons of chemicals for fertilizer, essentially poisoning the land instead of just having catlle graze the field for a year to cover it in natural healthy manure as free fertilizer

Forgot my pic i love showing this to vegans and watching the light die in their eyes

No because most agricultural land isn't suitable for crops - just grass that animals eat.

>because these products can never be substituted or made from plant based sources