So this and Suicide Squad apparently went through both development hell and studio meddling. In my opinion...

So this and Suicide Squad apparently went through both development hell and studio meddling. In my opinion, both were great. So why does it seem like the critics are more lenient when it comes to Marvel? You can see the issues and creative differences in both but neither are bad.

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Wait.. is there a Marvel Kamen Raider movie?

Yep he's gonna fight decade in infinity war

>In my opinion, both were great.

Your opinion is hereby discarded.

Well if I wasn't in the particular position of liking both, this thread would get deleted and accused of company wars.

It's ok when Marvel does it.

"Suicide Squad" is a bad movie. It might be fun, but is ladden with problems.

"Ant-Man" is simply more competently made.

Cause WB fucked SS up AFTER it had finished shooting. Disney tried to fuck with it before shooting had started, so they were able to make a coherent work after it they sorted all the changes

>Sup Forums thread ever getting deleted
God, I fucking wish.

>So why does it seem like the critics are more lenient when it comes to Marvel?
Because you either a dc fanboy, shit stirrer, or someone who hasn't read the reviews to understand what was wrong with SS.

Don't fool yourself into believing you haven't started a company wars thread by making a thinly veiled accusation of critics favoring Marvel. Don't patronize both of us.

The OP is company wars regardless of that, though.

>So why does it seem like the critics are more lenient when it comes to Marvel? You can see the issues and creative differences in both but neither are bad.

I don't think that's the case here famalam.

Suicide Squad has terrible pacing, and that's the biggest issue it has, the one that stands out the most. The movie is awkward to watch, and that's something you pick up instantly, add the multitude of problem it has and you can understand the bad scores.

Ant-Man is meh as fuck, it doesn't do much but it's fun to watch.

kek

Just posting to mention that from the thumbmail, i tought the poster read "ANF MAN"

Honestly though I love the MCU. But I'm also liking the DCEU and really want it to work.

Ant Man had a director bow out before filming even started, leaving the studio to find someone else to pick up the slack. The script ended up not even having much to do with anything Wright envisioned, and representing more of Peyton Reed's vision. That vision was a bit more bland and studio friendly, but it was pretty audience friendly too, with what I've been informed, was a lot higher emphasis on family-related pathos

Suicide Squad was the result of one director making the movie he was allowed to make for the most part, and a massive tentpole film the studio did collapsing, causing the execs to panic and need re-shoots, possibly even making two versions of the movie to test screen, one by the company that made the trailers. The final product wasn't one guy's reinterpretation of another guy's earlier story, it was a Frankensteined mess of tonally distinct elements, that you can kind of see the original movie underneath.

At their core, these are not the same thing at all, and it all comes down to which studio knew what kind of film they wanted.

>Ant-Man
>Guy spends years developing the movie, clashes with studio, gets the boot, studio moves forward without him, make the movie they want
>People enjoy the movie but wonder how much of it was really Wright's

>Suicide Squad
>Movie gets made, WB panics when BvsS is not a smash hit and preview screenings don't go as expected, so they take the movie and re-edit it with new footage to turn it into something else
>People watch the movie and wonder how the movie would've played out in its original cut without all the awkward flashbacks, scenes that are obviously incomplete, and shoe-horned poprock songs

Marvel meddled with the movie by reducing the size of Scott's crew, giving Hope more to do, adding stuff to tie it into the MCU, and reducing the asshole caricature level of characters like Cassie's stepdad.

WB meddled with the movie by replacing the real editor with a trailer editor, cutting out half of Joker's scenes and changing remaining scenes' context, removing character moments for everyone but Harley, Deadshot, and Diablo, and splicing in quips.

Pacing isn't the issue, it's the lack of effective transitions that are the issue. That and some really weird character beats toward the end.

I think WB did right with the amount of Joker scenes in the final product.

>>People enjoy the movie but wonder how much of it was really Wright's

to this day I wonder just how completely different Wright's movie would have been other than "not shoehorning Avengers/MCU-related shit in"

as far as the script goes I mean

I still love Ant-Man, took mom to see it on opening day and she laughed the whole movie.

Because Ant Man's strengths comes from having two visual comedy writers (Adam McKay and Edgar Wright) write the screenplay.

Go watch Hot Fuzz and Anchorman and you can tell that they're basis for Ant Man.

Whereas Suicide Squad was nothing like a David Ayer movie. The only Ayer moments in it was with Will Smith's character.

didn't Wright want to make Pym the villain?

From what's been reported, Wright's script would have had different personalities for Scott and Hank, Hope would be a minor character, Scott's crew would be minor characters, motivations would be different, and some of the climax would be different.

El Diablo is practically a stock Ayer character.

>Pym would be Yellowjacket
>no Juan Punch Man at all
>Scott being a real criminal instead of Robin Hood
>more open antagonism between him and his ex's boyfriend with them hating each other the whole movie instead of trying to get along for Cassie's sake
That's what I remember off the top of my head.

Ant-Man is also pretty mediocre. It does nothing new or interesting and they do a poor job of establishing any real sense of threat. It's like they just had a checklist of things they needed to include and made that into a movie, and Hope's performance was wooden. If they were just going to phone it in they should've been more zany and wacky about it, like GotG was. It would've been more fun. They were trying to make it funny, with Ant-Man's sidekicks but it wasn't anything that great.


They also wasted TI by not having him on the soundtrack, but that's neither here nor there

but whatever, someone will discredit my opinion as bait because it isn't lavish praise for it

That was a rumor, but I don't think it was ever confirmed.

>no Juan Punch Man at all

I saw the list of stuff Wright wanted to do with Antman, it was terrible. I think it's great he left the film when he did.

That's not what he's saying, though. He's saying it was more competently made, and that's about right.

Think of them like cars. Suicide Squad seems to be an old British car like a Triumph or a TVR. They're gorgeous and they sound good, but they don't work all the time, and even when they do work they're in danger of shutting down completely or rattling apart.

Ant-Man is a Toyota. It's dull and bland and doesn't go very fast, but it always works, every time.

Honestly it should have starred a young hank pym, but I was still grateful for what we got. It could have been so shitty, I was worried it was going to be green lantern tier bad.

>no Juan Punch Man at all

ay dios mio, why didn't I hear this before?

Yeah I loved Peña but I'm biased cause I'm mexican and gay.

Although it worked out in the end Scott being digital Robin Hood was kind of lame so.

Oh well, what could have been, right?

this, Wright is great, but what he wanted would have been a mess, Marvel knows when to let their writers and directors do their own thing and when to shut them down

shame DC can't handle the same

>Juan Punch Man

Why is Ant-Man suddenly so popular?

youtube.com/watch?v=xyGwMqMCta4

>Both were great

That's your opinion. And from an outside perspective, Ant-man had more leniency for quality because it could be seen as just a set up for a character that would be used later on in another movie, which he was.

Suicide Squad doesn't set up anything necessarily because there isn't a universe solid enough to guarantee more improvements in the future.

Also, the action in suicide squad wasn't NEARLY as unique and entertaining as in Ant-man.

Look there's a difference between "Old director was fired and new director made something else with similar ideas" and "Movie had a specific vision but then studio mandates flipped shit over how well-received the trailer with the pop song in it was and decided to ask those guys to edit the entire final cut"

Do you see something like this for Ant-Man? I don't think so

I think Wonder Woman is a great chance to balance gritty "realism" angle somebody at Warner Brothers (Goyer? Snyder? The higher ups? I'm not sure who) keeps pushing, while also expanding the mythos of the DCEU.

If they really, really are committed to this, "dark, cynical, grounded" interpretation of DC, I hope there will one day be a Static Shock movie as well. A street level story about Virgil Hawkins fighting all different kinds of bang babies/metahumans would be fun 1.5-2 hour flick. Or Raven/Trigon movie, a surreal and nightmarish Hell-on-Earth story might actually be great for Goyer or Snyder to direct.

Just depends on which movies and stories WB wants to incorporate into it's mythos, and which it doesn't.

I guess. But the cut scenes sounded very significant, not just for his characterization but for Harley's development/motivation as well.

And also, he did fuck all in the screen time that he did get, not to mention is was cut through out the movie in chunks. He desperately needed a good stand out scene that really set the Joker up and make him memorable.

>someone will discredit my opinion as bait because it isn't lavish praise for it
Hah, but seriously, I'm going to discredit your post as bait because you know (WE ALL KNOW) that Sup Forums is a DCEU with a persecution complex kind of place.

Fun fight scenes

Suicide squad fight scenes were literally Harley hitting demons with a wooden bat, and will Smith shooting off screen.

They should have made Deadshot more impressive in the shootouts, two bullets same hole each grunt. Instead it was just random firing.

>Scott being a real criminal instead of Robin Hood
I'm OK with this. I always hated the idea of Scott going to prison for being a "good guy", it just feels weak as fuck. I'd rather have an actual criminal trying to reform, falling into darkness once again out of necessity and reforming for good in the end. It just makes the story more interesting.

I mean, that's basically the story we get. Scott as Robin Hood is still him stealing. Whether we forgive him the trespass depends on how sympathetic we are to rich businessmen.

>>Pym would be Yellowjacket
Complete lie. Yellowjacket wasn't even in Wright's version, Cross was going to become "Nano Warrior."

Wright left because he didn't want to work with a studio that micro-managed to Hell and back, so they replaced him with a guy who was willing to play ball. Ultimately, Marvel made the formulaic movie they wanted to make all along.

>read reviews
>for every flaw they give a pass in Marvel movies they crucify them on the DC ones

so yeah, he's right

>it's a car analogy
Might as well make a food analogy while you're at it.

>Sup Forums shit ever getting deleted
You live in a good universe

None of the MCU movies have been structurally or thematically incoherent outside of Iron Man 2.

For as dirt-stupid as Thor 2 was, it had three acts and a basic set-up/paid-off character arc, which is more then any o the DCEU movies seem to be able to handle. Even MoS ends before the resolution of Clark's character arc, which was so abrupt we had three years of shitposting about how that was clearly Snyder's intent and how MoS2/BvS would follow up on that.

The stuff critics give a pass for are dumb plot holes and the basic stuff you get with summer blockbusters, where your ability to accept them depends on how much the overall package works for you. If an MCU movie was half as insane and incoherent as BvS believe me, you would hear about it.

bumping

...

Maybe he shouldn't had waited so long to make that Ant-Man movie

Because shit happened with Ant-Man before they started filming, and the meddling was done by the replacement filmmakers instead of a company that makes it's money by putting together fucking trailers.

Hush you, logic and common sense do not belong in this god-forsaken place.

you're right, though