Nationalism has nothing to do with 'being proud of people you've never met for things you had nothing to do with' or however that silly meme goes. Nationalism is the belief that the primary responsibility of a nations government is the welfare of that nation, not that of others. Nationalism beliefs that this will lead to more prosperity across the world.
In a way this is similar to the belief in a lassaiz-faire free market: both believe "if everyone thinks of themselves, everyone has someone who thinks of him", so
Nationalism is dead. You gave it up and surrendered to a foreign theocracy.
Congratulations on your mosques.
Levi Baker
Sleeping, not dead. I guarantee you France, Germany and the Netherlands will go nationalist in the near future.
Luis Mitchell
>Nationalism = free market >Globalism = socialism
This is woefully stupid.
You never heard of protectionist nationalist who hate the results of a free market, or globalist capitalists who would like nothing more to do their business unhindered anywhere in the world?
I'm glad that British nationalism means I won't have worry about ignorant Dutchmen in the near future.
Congats on your first female POTUS.
Thomas Morris
>see old broadcast of moon landing >read comments of older people reliving memories of that day (any place with a TV was packed, watching the moon landing with dad etc) >feel lump in my throat That's what nationalism is
Justin Lee
Why would anyone think Nationalism was good for the world, if the only reason you entered a bargain with another nation would be to exploit them? Why would anybody in a Nation state think that the only reason people wanted to be a part of that state was the guarantee the state would take care of them, and not instead making bargains with those who would maximize your collective action and not fuck you out of your share of the winnings?
Nationalism is a magical thinking confidence game, where the psychopaths in charge use emotional and instinctual buttons to fuck people out of their winnings while they do nothing.
I can work as hard as I can, and you can work as hard as you can, but the sum of our work is less than if we work together. That is a physical thing: I can't be in two places at once; two people can lift twice as much as one person. But the other side of the collective action is the zero-sum-game of dividing up the rewards of that action.
When someone sets up a system where the organizers can manipulate the physical system in order to maximize their return on the zero-sum-game of the collective action, that is corruption.
Nationalism is a system of corruption where the workers are cheated out of their winnings by using the emotional and instinctual rhetoric of loyalty and belonging by those who are their leaders.
If you can't see them, you don't owe them loyalty.
Non-governmental socialism, where only the workers are allowed to own their own companies and banks is the only solution, and can be accomplished in this democracy with the simple Constitutional Amendment that only a person can be a person.
Mason Morgan
Nationalism is just a tool to divide the international working class.
Brayden Phillips
"Why would anyone think Nationalism was good for the world, if the only reason you entered a bargain with another nation would be to exploit them?" >implying trade without nationalism is about being generous to the other person.
" Nationalism is a magical thinking confidence game, where the psychopaths in charge use emotional and instinctual buttons to fuck people out of their winnings while they do nothing."
>implying a nationalist wouldn't use his wealth to help his people. The very defining factor of a nationalist.
" Nationalism is a system of corruption where the workers are cheated out of their winnings by using the emotional and instinctual rhetoric of loyalty and belonging by those who are their leaders."
>implying that doesn't happen outside of nationalism.
In nationalism the goal is to benefit your people, How do you figure that it will lead to actions that will paradoxically work against their own people?
Jonathan Martin
>If the only reason you entered a bargain with another nation would be to exploit them The same reason your ever enter a trade with another person in a free market: because you both benefit from it.
Jackson Johnson
You hit on the point of "If you can't see them, you don't owe them loyalty"
This is important to understand that when people dont feel any connection to another human they can act very inhumane. I dont disagree with that at all in one way. But isn't this a good reason to support nationalism? For the people in your country who you pay and work with, with nationalism you have at least a sense of identity with them, it breaks that barrier of just a faceless human.
As for that idea of "Why would anyone think Nationalism was good for the world, if the only reason you entered a bargain with another nation would be to exploit them?" That is ridicules, you are not forcing them to do something for you at all. You are trading. If they dont think the trade is worth it then they wont do it. If your nation is nationalist or not has no influence on if the trading of services or commodities is worth it for the other person.
Blake Martinez
>Implying trade without nationalism is about being generous to the other person.
It is about getting more than you can by yourself so yes, the only reason people enter bargains is to get more. It is called win win. It only becomes win lose when you cheat, which is my point. Nationalism is a grand con game where dolts like you are in willing slavery because of your feels.
>implying a nationalist wouldn't use his wealth to help his people. The very defining factor of a nationalist.
Yes. The very heart of the con. Sucker!
>implying that doesn't happen outside of nationalism.
I made no such implication whatsoever. Is the only way you can argue is by making up your own facts? Congratulations! You are a sucker who makes his decisions emotionally and instinctually and are going to be played your whole life!
No one enters into collective action honestly without there being: 1. a physical benefit to the cooperation, that exceed what you can get on your own 2. the honest division of the rewards of that cooperation so that the benefit is actually realized
You are living in a narrative where you are required to stick your head in the sand about what really goes on, or your narrative simply wouldn't be useful anymore. Nationalism is a bargain, not a physics, and unless that bargain is backed by physics, it is an illusion.
Asher Powell
I believe I quite clearly explained the level of abstraction by which I meant the part you quoted. Of course non free market nationalism exists and vice versa
Andrew Jenkins
Exploitation is taking more of the zero-sum-game winnings. Cooperation is maximizing the total winnings. International trade should be about cooperation where both sides benefit.
I would agree It is not currently that way, but we don't have to accept that, and Nationalism certainly won't do anything but make it worse.
Charles Hughes
The world economy doesn't resemble a zero sum game so that point is moot. Nationalism just means looking out for your country's interest above all else. Since it isn't a zero sum game this has no relation with making sure other counties get less. Nationalism and cooperation aren't mutually exclusive. For from it.
Nathaniel Reyes
No.
1. It is supremely ignorant to argue that Nationalism either protects its own, or is honest in its dealings with others given the history of Nationalism. 2. I don't have to be loyal to you and trust you to treat you with respect and not fuck you over. That is a stupid assumption. I can feel a great connection with every human on the planet without owing them an unquestioned action on my part. 3. Loyalty is always a confidence game. Instead of doing something because it makes sense and we agree, I do it because of my feels. Stupid.
Stupid stupid Stupid! This is why followers suck! You allow yourselves to be played.
Christopher Brooks
You forgot a critical aspect about Nationalism. It's fun.
I'm not joking.
Globalist lead societies have no motivation other than (magical world utopia you won't be able to enjoy because it's not real)
Nationalism let's you already take pride in shit you do and makes it into a hyperbole.
I can sing tunes about my country, follow my country's customs, and wave a bright flag because it's what I grew up with.
Globalism is grey and muddled. You can't be happy for yourself. Strangers who have no connection to you start living next to you. They follow certain behaviors that don't click for you. Sometimes they can't speak the same language. No one wants that.
It's why 'Murrika jokes are fun to make for Americans.
Chase Robinson
> It is about getting more than you can by yourself so yes, the only reason people enter bargains is to get more. It is called win win. It only becomes win lose when you cheat, which is my point. Nationalism is a grand con game where dolts like you are in willing slavery because of your feels.
I should have been clearer when i was talking about this, i meant that the richer and more prosperous would be much more generous in a nationalist society because their interest is in the well being of their people, as apposed to rich people who take as much as they can from their people in non-nationalist societies. When you talk about people bargaining to get more and its a win-win, that doesn't stop happening in a nationalist society. Its that same force at play + generosity by the wealthy.
>Yes. The very heart of the con. Sucker! Whats the argument here?
For the rest of your argument is it pretty clear you have absolutely no idea what nationalism is and seem to be arguing more with your munted perception more then anything else. Nationalism isn't a economical system, all those things you said about people bargaining with what they want vs what they get still applies. There isn't an argument you can make about economics that agrees or disagrees with nationalism because nationalism isn't a economic system.
What nationalism is, is a culture in a country that puts emphasis on having a healthy sense of belonging with your people, and having the government and people center their decisions around benefit for the country and not personal financial gain at the cost of your country.
Nolan Torres
>The world economy doesn't resemble a zero sum game
Naive. Production occurs, but the division of the production is a zero-sum-game that is won by those who organize the production.
Do you divide up what you produce among everyone in the company, or do you have wages? Do you gain anything from the interest on the loans you company has, or does it go to the one who loaned you the money?
>Nationalism and cooperation aren't mutually exclusive.
But it is cooperation based on emotion, not physics.
Why do I bother. You people don't have the pathways in your brain to be anything but a slave. Emotion is logic to you. You think you can do impossible things if you feel good enough about it. And no facts or feedback from the world will ever make any difference.
Jacob Collins
>straw manning >implying i ever said you need to be loyal to have mutual respect >implying nationalism is about loyalty
Its not even worth talking to you about this is it? You dont really even know what were talking about here by the looks of it. Just taking small snippits and pumping it full of your own terrible assumptions, then getting confused and bitter about your own assumptions.
Levi Cox
"Working class solidarity" is a tool to divide nations.
Easton Long
>you shouldn't be proud of people you've never met just because they're of the same race/nationality as you! >you need to pay reparations and apologize for the wrongdoings of white people from 200 years ago!
liberal logic
Christian Russell
That is retarded. The fact that the global GDP consistently grows and has done so for the duration that we've had such a thing as economy proves that it is not zero sum. For the grad majority of goods there is no effective limit on production.
>cooperation based on emotion Looking out for your interest is emotion? Then you must also not believe in free markets >you people don't have the pathway in your brain... Anyone who disagrees with you is a priori stupid. Nice debating there.
Xavier Bennett
>International trade should be about cooperation where both sides benefit. Impossible, I suggest you read up on labor arbitrage, tax arbitrage, and regulatory arbitrage. Free trade naturally seeks out and has a vested interest in exploitation. The only thing which can stop it is protectionism because it creates barriers which eliminate the arbitrage opportunity.
Ryder Brooks
Multiculturalism doesn't work.
Prove me wrong.
Thomas Hill
Hillary soon
Thomas Wilson
...
Christian Sanchez
"Liberals" rarely base their opinions on any ideology anymore.
Jason Moore
>A nation (from Latin: natio, "people, tribe, kin, genus, class, flock") is a large group or collective of people with common characteristics attributed to them - including language, traditions, mores (customs), habitus (habits), and ethnicity
A nation shares genes and memes, and a common interest in reproducing those genes and memes. Following knowledge of the natural selection of altruism, whereby one helps another who shares genes thus passing on their genes indirectly, a nation is most likely a reproductive strategy of altruism between members of a shared genetic-ethnic group.
Only in a nation-state or nation-country can altruism be universal, and the reproduction of the nation be ensured in competition with other nations. It's simply the only sensible strategy at this point. Anyone who uses this strategy while others don't will win the game of life, and I would prefer that the winners be my people and my genetics.
Pic related is from >jasss.soc.surrey.ac.uk/16/3/7.html demonstrating a simulation of the dominance of ethnocentric tactics over humanitarian tactics, in a game of cooperation and reproduction.
Grayson Campbell
Youre pretty much the same.
Isaac Morris
Tax Avoidance =! Tax Evasion.
Gabriel Howard
Nationalism is for losers. Successful people support globalism because it gives them the most possibilities. Nationalism is just pleb ideology like communism, that tries to unify the masses against elite.
Ian Fisher
Globalism only gives opportunities to people from poorer countries. The end goal is to make the entire world as poor as poor countries.
Ethan Jackson
Actually, nationalism is a jewish invention to destroy the traditional european system. The russian empire jewed the jews though, they managed to keep their old system intact while also supporting nationalism(Orthodoxy, Autocracy and Nationality).
>Nationalism is the belief that the primary responsibility of a nations government is the welfare of that nation It's not even nationalism, just sanity. Even multicultural states like the Ottoman Empire or Austria-Hungaria used to think in themselves before, and others after.
>Nationalism = free market >Globalism = socialism Both are globalist, free market because it seek open borders with humans being just another product in a economical point of view. Socialism marxist is globalist because they had the ideology of class consciencce
Sebastian Smith
Why nationalism? Because globalism concentrates more and more power in fewer and fewer hands. This isn't even necessarily malicious. I suspect most globalists are like yourself and indulging in some utopic 'greater good' thinking. Most rational people can see that this isn't in their interest.
oh wait. You're an anarchist. kek.
Cameron Morris
Nationalism is just love for your people, it has no effect on your financial success in any other way except that you might be more generous to your own people out of care.
Benjamin Bennett
Nationalism resulted in Europe doing a self-inflicted guy shot - Europe has been slowly dying ever since.
Liam Hernandez
>It is about getting more than you can by yourself so yes, the only reason people enter bargains is to get more. It is called win win. It only becomes win lose when you cheat, which is my point. Nationalism is a grand con game where dolts like you are in willing slavery because of your feels.
Typical leftist trait, always assuming the best of people if only you can get your revolution first. Here's a thought. You want your global mutualist entity, then go get it. In the mean time we'll work on something practical that will improve the lost of our and our friends and families lives.
>Yes. The very heart of the con. Sucker!
Somehow giving up some of the benefits of our nation to a global cause is different?
>You are a sucker who makes his decisions emotionally and instinctually and are going to be played your whole life!
Tell me is your globalism not just your own emotive response to the current system you don't like? As your ideal system involves ripping down literally every vestige of western society, I suspect it is.
Easton Bailey
>he wants the entire planet to look like Brazil
goodest goy :^)
Ryder Bell
You're describing patriotism. Your race is your nation.
>guy shot What is this? I got a bunch of gay porn when I searched it.
Joshua Bell
All your points have been criticism of capitalism rebranded so as to apply to nationalism. Tell me, why can't workers co-operate under a hierarchical structure? Why can't a state be nationalist with socialist policy?
Luke Nelson
>dealings with others given the history of Nationalism.
Maybe these weren't True Nationalism™? How do you disprove the notion that cooperation is easier among like minded people? Or contend that cooperation is harder between people with worldviews lightyears apart?
Jackson Price
>you guys are so emotional
This is a favourite tactic of leftypol. They attempt to paint us here as irrational as SJW.
>But it is cooperation based on emotion, not physics.
Literally fucking meaningless.
>There's more people ergo things will work better
What your entire case boils down to. Not a single example in all of history of cooperation on such a scale working unless under duress. Again, you assume if we could just cast off the shackles of capitalism that everyone would live a virtuous (by your standards) life. Then you dismiss nationalism as idealist.
Lucas Fisher
The elite are running away with the game. You think they'll stop of their own accord?
