The cap vs batman thread was getting way too autistic to behold, so I decided to up the ante

The cap vs batman thread was getting way too autistic to behold, so I decided to up the ante
Shuma Gorath or Trigon, who wins?

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Trigon isn't even a blip to shuma.

who would be a good match then?
Mister Mxyzptlk?
the Antimonitor?

Three Superman Primes and a 6 pack of Yoo-Hoos.

Probably the big black guy in multiversity. The one responsible for everything.

Antimonitor is now getting TOO powerful

Antimonitor has wiped out more universes than Shuma Gorath owns.

Don't you mean timelines

Shuma Gorath is entirely too powerful. Probably a mistake level powerful.

Why wasn't he obliterated during Secret Wars though?

because the writers always forget it exists
probably for the best

He's probably self sustaining OR something stupid

Multiversal conqueror vs multiversal rapist.

I change my asspull and instate another. Now stay with me for a moment. What if the universes he got rid of to fill with his own got rid of molecule man in a manner that didn't trigger his boom boom. I almost forgot that he was the key behind the universes getting fucked

Shuma isn't even that strong. Sure he has conquered many universes but we have never seen them, they must've been pretty fucking weak seeing how he never managed to do much against the main universe.

nigga is meant to be one of the heavyweight lovecraftian horrors, theoretically what he did in the cancerverse could very well be what he would do to the regular MU, or even worse, considering that the cancerverse occured via its agents and not because of a direct intervention by Shuma. Its always stated that his only real weakness is the time it takes for him to fully manifest outside his domain, the second he manages to do so is the moment it incorporates that reality unto itself
Shuma would be a GOAT threat for a crossover, shame most marvel writers don't really want to use it

Also, remember that its name was used in the incantations that were going to empower the killing of Death itself
Nigga's name alone contains such power

Doesn't Doctor Strange beat him on multiple occasions? Yea I heard he's bullshit as well, but not multidimensional levels of bullshit

He probably survived desu. I mean honestly he wasn't the only entity to survive the multiversal death.

Silver surfer made it, Shaper of worlds made it who was basically a sentient cosmic cube, and Loki from 616 made it.

According to a secret wars tie in a mad celestial attacked battleworld before doom turned him into a moon. So honestly I am not surprised if uber powerful people like shuma gorath lived.

Hell its also possible not all beyonders died, Starlin's Infinity finale had eternity refer to them as "a rogue band of beyonders" implying there are others. Which makes sense if you read Ewing's mighty avengers when they got attacked by the beyond corporation, who hinted they were beyonders and mentioned that other beyonders don't want to have fun with the multiverse like they did (implying mutliversal genocide).

Also Avengers Infinity mini series hinted there were more weird entities out there than just the beyonders, for example the infinites who basically played with eternity of 616 like a toy.

So really I can see a bunch of powerful entities surviving the onslaught, including and especially shuma gorath.

Dr Strange never beats him 1v1, he beats him before shuma gorath can completely manifest in the marvel universe. If shuma gorath does manifest he will make what happened to the cancerverse look like a baby and completely anhilate strange in a pictosecond. That's what makes him dangerous.

Also everytime Strange banishes him before forming a full corporal form he is very close to death. And this is classic strange who could very well be a planet or solar system buster.

I am genuinely afraid of how bad Aaron will make him job in his Dr Strange series.

This is why we cant have nice things

fuck, don't tell me shuma's going to be the antagonist
why couldn't they pick Dormammu or Mephisto or other of the lesser demons?

Nope. Universes.

>Antimonitor is now getting TOO powerful

Actually he is getting too weak. The original Anti-Monitor was fucked-up OP. The recent one was a faggot.

The universe was destroyed, but not the 'white space' beyond. The Beyond Corporation claimed there were many kinds of life forms outside the Multiverse. Shuma-Gorath may be vermin from that level of reality.

Plus the one time Strange did destroy him, he started to change into a new Shuma-Gorath himself.

How about Trigon versus Zom?

Also, this. WTF?

youtube.com/watch?v=gqy5jqpLbgw

***

Can Dormammu stand up to Shuma-Gorath, for that matter?

You know, I'm not sure whether or not it has been established whether or not Shuma Gorath has attempted to invade the Dark Dimension, and if not, then why.

AFAIK Shuma is a multiversal being, while there are several instances of Dormammu, so it probably owns several Dark Dimensions

Don't know how cannon this graph is, but acccording to it Shuma is just a couple of levels below the most powerful marvel beings: TOAA,the Beyonders, and that retard Molecule Man

A stunning graph. Not sure to what extent I agree with it (For instance, the power of the Infinity Being was not superior to that of the Living Tribunal). But it would be nice to have something like what Morrison designed for Multiversity.

No love for Zom?

Lack of appearances is why he is strong. Have him start appearing everywhere in person and he'll be a jobber like the cosmics or juggernaut in no time.

Yeah, I agree.
Like as much as I ADORE whenever he's there, the more pushed towards the front he is the weaker and weaker he'll be.
Soon he'll be beaten by Squirrel Girl or the Power Pack after that, and then it's all just over.
Its the major reason I really REALLY hope he doesnt show up in the MCU.

Copying off a Morrison wouldn't work because they aren't the same thing. Morrison believes that divergent timelines make up universes. Marvel doesnt.

Dormammu shuma and all the strange bad guys are going to attack Earth since magic is gone and Strange is powerless. Get ready for some retarded bullshit jobbing

The film's out in 3 months, Magic's not going to be gone for long.

It's not so much Shuma as it is one of his followers. Given how people think though, the followers failure will be shumas

Are there peeps in the "Beyond" part potentially outside of TOAA's jurisdiction? Gut says fuck no but I'm wondering why their bubble has just a bit more reach

>Morrison believes that divergent timelines make up universes.

I'm not so sure about that. In '52' the universes were already separate before their timelines were changed.

In any case, you couldn't have a one-on-one map because the Marvel multiverse is (nominally) fuckhuge. Much vaster than the DC multiverse ever was

Ugh, and since I'm a Transfag...

And the Negative Zone isn't a single multiversal zone.
and the Power Primordial is just the Power Cosmic.
and Doorman is still an agent of Oblivion

it's a REALLY nice map, but it needs a lot of fixes

Beyonders being extra-multiversal beings and therefore outside the Absolute Ruling Power of the Living Tribunal would explain why they managed to kill him, as he had to fight them and couldn't simply Rule them.
Of course, now the new Living Tribunal is not simply much more powerful the old one, but he's also a Starlin Adam Warlock which means he can easily outsmart anything he cannot overpower.

I dont like how this chart implies the beyonders are stronger than shuma

I don't know if this was Barbiere going full retard, but we saw an Earth 28k billions here

>the Power Primordial is just the Power Cosmic.

I thought the Power Primordial was the Infinity Gems.

>the new Living Tribunal is not simply much more powerful the old one, but he's also a Starlin Adam Warlock

..Well, if you take Starlin into account. Which I do not. That man has outlived his era. He's like Encino Man or something.

Man, they're more powerful than pretty much anything. They only were defeated (if that is actually what happened) because Doom made a weapon out of their weapons and turned it on them.

...Daaaaaamn. And all with Reed Richards in them, I assume.

That looks cool.
Does DC also have such a chart?

Hyperion also survived the universe incursions, held two universes apart before they fell away into nothing, then was just kind of left floating in Anti Space before he was snatched into 616 by AIM.

That chart is retarded in the first place for trying to reconcile things that were clearly not thought of as having to match previous instances or namedrops of superior beings

the Marvel Multiverse is quite big.
Every _POSSIBLE_ quantum possibility makes a new universe.

But it's not technically infinite:
First, it's quantically bound to the TRUE possibilities: if the first quantum choice was either A or B, only those two universes would exist. A "What if there was a third choice?" wouldn't be an actual universe, but an Imaginary Story.
(In DC, the Imaginary Stories are real through the Hypertime. There isn't Hypertime in Marvel)
Therefore, there is a limit to the number of universes.

Second, the Time Variance Authority actively causes "similar enough" universes to collapse together. This is actually a natural process to some degree but they artificially speed it up\cause it more often so they have less work to do.

Also, universes die\get killed\destroyed by various events.

This reduces the number of existent universes.

the number is the Quantum Identification number.... it's not progressive. They never explained it, and I'd prefer they would keep not.
(technically now they ARE progressive... or so says Brevoort. I think nobody cares.)
That said, 28k billions is far from high.

>I thought the Power Primordial was the Infinity Gems.
the Power Primordial is the power wield by the Elders of the Universe.

>..Well, if you take Starlin into account. Which I do not.
Good luck with that, Starlin is and remains an important voice in dealing with the Cosmic side of Marvel.
And the current main Cosmic writer, Ewing, is too much a continuity man to ignore him.

>they're more powerful than pretty much anything
Cunning? Yeah. Powerful? I'm not convinced

Thor, Hyperion, and Starbrand were fucking them up pretty nicely until they got overrun. Doom killed (almost?) all of them with their own weapon.

I mean, they're pretty smart, attacking LT on multiple universes at the same time but they probably had a reason to do so instead of straight up attacking him in one spot.

Only the official one, AFAIK.

Don't think so? Closest thing I had on hand.

>new Living Tribunal

That's a shame. I know it's dumb to have someone second to basically God be defeated the same way Galactus gets shat on, but I thought it was refreshing. Really hyped up the beyonders, prob the biggest threat for a long time

Do not challenge our autistic need to attempt to fold all data into a working whole.

Hackman didn't know what the fuck he was doing.

...

...

...

Last one. I should make a follow-up but it all turned out so lame I just didn't feel like it.

So how do the beyonders fit in with this guy?

>. I know it's dumb to have someone second to basically God be defeated the same way Galactus gets shat on
well, they had to kill a big part of the Multiverse to get a chance with him... the problem is, >Hackman didn't know what the fuck he was doing.

the Living Tribunal has never been the Incarnation of the Multiverse, that's Multi-Eternity(for a lack of a better name)

an addendum on the Marvel Multiverse: that is how the OLD Multiverse worked.

We don't know the actual specifics of the new Multiverse, it's possible even Imaginary Stories might be Real now.

We'll have to wait for Ewing, I guess.

Yes they're strong as shit and you've driven the point home but these niggas ugly and I can't take them seriously. They look like perfectly generic aliens compared to other ayys

Is this basically saying that humans made a robot that could copy other people's powers and it just started copying and copying stronger people's powers until it became the end boss?

Sounds like something from Dragonball

power primordial isnt power cosmic. Its the primordial. Its power from the beginning of the universe. Its similar to the iso-8 which is left over energy of creation from the new multiverse

Wasn't that a justice league ep? I remember the resulting god-robot being omnipotent, and it was scary shit

which is Power Cosmic.
Note how the Ultimates used ISO-8 to power-up Galactus' evolution.
Galactus runs on pure Power Cosmic.

>>Is this basically saying that humans made a robot that could copy other people's powers and it just started copying and copying stronger people's powers until it became the end boss?
It suggests they made a robot using End Boss energy that evolved to became a End Boss itself, fueling others to make robots based on its own End Boss energy...

Possibly. Beyonder reproduction cycle is well known tho. They give the cosmic cube idea to sentients. Sentient civilization make them, cubes become sentient after many uses. The cubes become cosmic beings like kubik or shaper of the world. From there they learn more secrets of the universe and go BEYOND the multiverse.

So cubes are their cosmic eggs basically

It was.

Then it showed up in latter episodes, hanging out with Doctor Fate, I think.

so its possible hickmans beyonders arent true beyonders. Starlins infinity finale graphic novel mentioned them being a renegade band.

And Ewing implied there were others, some nice some bored etc

Apparently he was one of their kids. Hickman opines that he changed reality, so basically he became whatever he thought he was at the time.

>the Living Tribunal has never been the Incarnation of the Multiverse

Nope. I could live with the idea, but it's still making shit up.

It was a huge disappointment.

dude ur wrong about the power cosmic. That is power with galactus himself and his herald where they have the ability to manupilate the energies of the cosmos. While Primordial is for elders from the leftover big bang. They both get different entries in the marvel books and wikis.


Also the power Primordial like the iso-8 is all new and different monster. Thats not to say OG primordial cant affect galactus.

That was my working hypothesis. It wasn't born out by the comics that followed.

That was Amazo, who is basically DC's Adaptoid. Although he predates him by a few years.

>Beyonder reproduction cycle is well known tho.

Well, no. I assume that is how it works, but we have no confirmation yet.

>Starlins infinity finale graphic novel

Seriously. Put that man out to pasture.

killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-455785-power-primordial-vs-power-cosmic.html

Huh. There was an issue of She-Hulk where it was implied the power of the Infinity Gems was the Power Primordial.

Ah, here it is. A continuity cockup?

Shuma certainly seems to be multiversal. Thanos Imperative and Invaders NOW! strongly implied that, while Shuma may have conquered multiple dimensions/realities he and the other Multi-Angled ones originated in the spaces between realities.

That said, there may even be other versions of Shuma, too. Let us not forget MvC Shuma, after all.

I'd say, based on the evidence, Shuma wouldn't INSTANTLY conquer a universe upon manifesting there. He's not omnipotent. But he would be able to rapidly conquer it unless resistance rallied very, very quickly with an overwhelming counter attack.

IIRC later issue states it being an error by the writer

if he manifests completely, he wins automatically.
He's THAT powerful, but it takes time for him to manifest.

>That said, there may even be other versions of Shuma, too. Let us not forget MvC Shuma, after all.
MvC Shuma is probably the shadow of an hair of him.

>IIRC

Well, source it, please.

Like I said, I think he may be vermin from White Space. A cockroach from God's kitchen.

>Why wasn't he obliterated during Secret Wars though?
Because he's too powerful.

>if he manifests completely, he wins automatically.
>He's THAT powerful, but it takes time for him to manifest.

I don't think that's accurate.

In Shuma's first post-Conan appearance, Strange prevents his entrance into our reality but it's never stated that he would instantly conquer reality upon manifest, just that he would conquer eventually.

In his second appearance, during the Peter Gillis run, Strange fights Shuma on the creature's home turf and absorbs his power. On his return to normal space Strange/Shuma stopped by Kaluu, who warns that Strange has enough aura-pressure to destroy nearby galaxies upon entering our reality, which gives us a rough metric of Shuma's power and what might happen upon his entrance into a reality; IE, bad but not immediately apocalyptic.

In Thanos Imperative Shuma is only mentioned by name once; most of what's going on seems to because by numerous Many Angled-Ones. We can assume that the Cancerverse and the way it was created is accurate to what Shuma would ultimately do to a reality, but not how long it would take. It's worth noting they said that reality had already been infiltrated by the Many Angled Ones to a much greater degree than 616.

The only other major Shuma appearances I'm aware of are his cameos in Mighty Avengers and Invaders NOW!, neither of which deal with what would actually happen if his conquest was successful. The fact of the matter is, we've never seen Shuma conquer a dimension, just seen references to the aftermath. How it would actually go down is largely conjecture, though Thanos Imperative probably gives us the best idea, namely a mass invasion by Many Angled Ones who overwhelm the reality's protectors after crippling their defenses ahead of time.

strange always fight avatars and sometimes has help

Strange has never actually fought an avatar of Shuma, actually. He's always stopped the entity before it could enter our reality at all, except for one time where he did in fact fight Shuma in person and won, though it was a very difficult fight with a lot of personal cost.

well then my info was off cause I thought on 2 occasions he did. I dont organize my reads enough to find the correct answer so im gonna assume youre right.

Well, he's really only fought Shuma two times. Once he only saw Shuma as a psychic projection, and the second they fought in person.

Starlin's infinity saga wasn't that bad user. Even if he wanked Thanos hard for my tastes.

I wouldn't say he won there, just delayed the inevitable. Shuma said that if Strange defeats him he will just reemerge from Dr Strange's body. Then he also created a psychic replica of the Earth and wrecked havoc on the planet through that.

Strange tried to stop it but ended up causing more death so he decided to completely absorb Shuma Gorath before travelling across random dimensions to burn off his tainted energy. Even scattering his essence across multiple dimensions wasn't enough.

Shuma did reform eventually.

>he wanked Thanos hard

Starlin would marrry Thanos if he could.

I bet he has a Death costume in a closet somewhere.

Shuma channeling his strength in the physical realm through the body of the Ancient One could've counted as an avatar but the Ancient one's mind was perfectly fine in the spiritual realm and even agreed to be killed, so I don't think it counts

Yeah, Shuma having "Avatars" almost only happens in stories where people other than Doctor Strange are dealing with him. It's a lazy way for writers to have lower power heroes punch above their weight level.

Some reminders for you autistic powerwanking retards
1. Shuma gorath never conquered a universe. He conquers dimensions, like hell or asgard. He has precicely one earth under his control
2.. Cancerverse shuma is a different guy from a different universe who shares the same name. Like cancerverse spider-man or cancerverse galactus
3. From, a skyfather, casually made books capable of defeating Shuma
4. Strange has beaten Shuma on his own turf
5. The tiger god kicked shuma's ass casually
6. Shuma has never "jobbed", he's just a pathetic weakling

Youre a faggot user. He is a multiversal entity that has taken over other dimensions and universes.

See this for how Strange "beat" him. You can't defeat a many angled one so easily.

Also it was literally said in the avengers issue that the tiger god only defeated a small speck, basically a small finger nail scratch that tried to tear through Earth-616 reality.

I maked this.

>Even if he wanked Thanos hard for my tastes.
he had Thanos lose to Annihilus, though, forced to suicide as a highest risk gamble

I disagree, they're on pretty much the same level.

How do you figure? Is Trigon a multiversal threat?

>Is Trigon a multiversal threat
I guess it depends on how you define multiversal.

multiple universes and their respective magical dimensions.

Trigon seems more universal, he has conquered a lot of planets and dimensions.

>is Trigon a multiversal threat
Short answer: no
Long answer: No but I think his power levels is about the same as Shuma gorath.

Why doesn't Trigon just rape Shuma Gorath?

Where is Sup Forums in all of this?

He completely conquered his universe and the implications has been that he'll make short work of our universe, so he's a promising Multiversal threat.

the "realm of the gods" is actually part of the "natural multiverse".

As explained by a old issue of Doctor Strange(or maybe by Kubik to Beyonder, right now I'm unsure):

Multiverse is a multi-layer cake, where each layer is a different dimension.
"our" dimension is just one of many.
The Dark Dimension, the realms of Yggdrasil, etc, etc they are other layers
(The Realm of the Manifestations is the highest layer, just shy of getting "outside")
The Dark Dimension? It's actually Dark Dimension-616, for example.

The Omniverse is composed of all the quantum iterations of the Multiverse cake.
Each iteration is connected\separated by the Superflow

Because he don't have tentacles, so Shuma does the raping. Didn't they teach you this at the Gotham police academy?

Oh so that explains why each universe has their own version of thor or whatever. However I am pretty sure to simplify things the omniverse is just referred as a multiverse.