So, what was wrong with Hickman's Avengers run?

So, what was wrong with Hickman's Avengers run?

Great until the end of Time Runs Out. Secret Wars starts off great, but boy does he shit the bed after the third issue.

Too many Avengers spoil the plot.

All set up with no pay off. No satisfying payoff at least.

it was a meme run favored by reddit

Focused on OC's instead of my favorite characters.

Also there was drama and they weren't chumming around together.

What happened to Smasher, Captain Universe, Starbrand, Night Mask, and all those other characters he created?

Starbrand and Nightmask went on to a doomed to fail on-going by Yost were the only think good about it was a cripplefu.

Starbrand & Nightmask had fell victim to the Weisman curse, Smasher was last seen in Nova and whatever happened to Captain Universe is still unknown.

reddit has zero decent or substantial comic subreddit so this is complete buzzword shit.

it never paid off in a big way, lots of build up to some great shit but i struggle to think of any memorable moments.

What about Ex Nihilo and Black Swan?

I thought the Smasher issue was good.

Also, how was THE LAST WHITE EVENT THE LAST WHITE EVENT THE LAST WHITE EVENT THE LAST WHITE EVENT not memorable?

>reddit has zero decent or substantial comic subreddit

u wot m8

Smasher was last seen in Nova with the rest of the Imperial Guard.
Ex Nilho and Abyss died in Time Runs Out and were never seen since.
Starbrand and Nightmask had a series that was canceled because Weissman.
Captain Universe presumably lost her powers after Secret Wars, when the Uni-Power decided she had finished her job and left for someone else, like all other Captain Universes.
Black Swan was presumably not brought back by Reed, because he knows she's just a Doom-worshipper.

They dead, man.

Right back at you. Feel free to point to something even remotely substantial. I'd be surprised if you could link to even a single post with more than 50 replies about actual comic discussion.

Stick around until Ulti-Mate restarts that storytime. Even within its first year the run had weird issues. Disregarding continuity, backstory issues for the new characters, that stupid invincible robot that kicked everyone's ass, etc.

Explain Busiek's run AKA THE UNDISPUTED GOAT.

He was a better writer and was more concerned about the interpersonal dynamics of the team than with the big cosmic ploy going on like Hickman was.

It gave us that great abridged run so I forgive it for all its faults. I can't even read it normally anymore.

FUCK YOUR CHARTS TONY

It was really, REALLY fucking long to get to the point

He set the standard for Avengers. But because he would take new characters on, tell their story and get rid of them when that story was over. So it was a rotating cast with a couple people more or less always there, like Iron Man and Cap. But the story was always about the rotated people, Iron Man and Cap didn't really matter all that much.

The ending and some OC donuts.

That's about it. Still, a terrific run.
Why would plebbit like it?

Highlights were Thor btfoing the ayylmao
>inb4 warcrime shitposter
Namor being RIGHT, and the Thor-Hyperion an heroics.

Didn't reed Secret Wars. Don't plan to.

>Smasher
Still with Shia'ar Imperial Guard. She's shown up a couple times (once in Nova, once in Ultimates) but since there aren't any comics focused on the Shia'ar, she doesn't really have anywhere to appear regularly.

>Captain Universe
Presumably the Uni-Force moved onto a new host somewhere in the universe like it always does. Captain Universes are always temporary since the uni-force only empowers someone long enough to accomplish a specific task.

>Starbrand/Nightmask
Attending Empire State University.

Thing is that The Last White Event doesn't really have any meaning unless you're already familiar with The White Event.

It's like finding out that the next Wrestlemania is going to be the last one and they hype the fuck out of it, but if you've never watched a single episode of wrestling in your life then why should you care?

The run was mostly fine, but the ending, where the Avengers are completely ineffectual in order to lead to a FF focused story was bad and hurts it in hindsight.

>Black Swan was presumably not brought back by Reed, because he knows she's just a Doom-worshipper.
Kind of a dick move by Reed if true. My head-canon is that he recreated her original universe so she could get a happy ending.

This
As a trade it even feels dragged out.

>The whole run was really an FF story
I'm still pissed I bought this whole run when I don't give a shit about the FF

AHAHAHAHA

New Avengers was aces and they eventually melded into one another anyway, but some of the Avengers issues focusing on the OC's were boring and bad. Infinity is almost a good event, too, which I didn't think was possible anymore.

If you think Waidvengers is better, then good for you, but give me some Morrisonian Hickvengers any day of the week.

Hickman thought he was writing Shakesphere instead of a comic book

It was slow. When it hit it hit hard but mostly it was buildup without satisfactory payoff.

Infinity suffered from being an event instead of just an arc.

The greatest trick Hickman ever pulled was tricking people into giving a fuck about the Fantastic Four.

Just in time for Marvel to YANK IT ALL AWAY.

It was a DC reboot story that he pitched to the wrong company.

>created

Smasher is a Claremont, I believe. The Hickman Smasher was a poorly-written cocksleeve whose introduction was bungled by a backstory that Marvel doesn't own and which is still in print with the company that does own it. There's literally no point to trying to salvage her - Smashers are, in fact, mass-produced by the Shi'Ar anyway.

Captain Universe is a Golden/Mantlo creation. The whole point of the Uni-Force is that it moves on once the person it empowers has done the job they needed to do. If it's being written as not moving on, you're writing it wrong because you haven't understood the form of storytelling.

Starbrand and Night Mask are part of the New Universe line begun by Jim Shooter in the 80s. New Universe (like the later Ultimate line) was never supposed to cross over with the main line comics, and didn't sell particularly well. A previous attempt to reimagine it, newuniverse (sic), was a Warren Ellis project in the early part of the last decade. This also failed, largely because Ellis (who now lives in the cloud) had all his scripts on a single hard disk, which failed or was lost or something. Because of deadlines and the fact they'd essentially need to relaunch the relaunch six months down the line it was discontinued, but sales weren't stellar anyway.

The most ridiculously lazy characters of all. Ex Nihilo literally means "from nothing". It's every bit as camp as calling someone "Doctor DOOM" but without the earnest sense of the writer trying to get you to understand that this is a scary, powerful character. Real-life dictators are ridiculous, but still dangerous: that's why Doom still works. Taking a recolor of the devil from Legend and giving it a name that's supposed to be both self-aware and a campy way of telling you what it does in-story is just awful. Same with Black Swan - yeah, we get it, a very unusual FUCK OFF.

I'm glad he was fired.

I really like Captain Americas outfit in this one.
Also why does Wolverines symbol cover him like it's a censor bar?

>Smasher is a Claremont, I believe

More like a Cockrum, given that he's Ultra Boy.

...

The Avengers arc where they faced their evil dopplegangers culminating with Bruce and Tony having the mother of all tense conversations were a great set of issues. That being said, I may be in the minority.

Follow up page.

What was wrong with it?
It's got way too many ideas in not enough time
And the ones that do get the proper time to develop, like Hickman's weird AIM boner and Thanos shit in the first half, feel forced and out of place

I don't think anyone would have minded more doom in the story, I know he was hoping for a big surprise but the reveal is more disappointing then anything, because you're just left wishing you saw him more earlier

I forget, did they ever do a strange redemption arc or did he just go good again in the 8 months

No you're alright

According to the most recent Official Marvel Handbook update, God Reed wiped all of Strange's memories regarding the incursions, the Black Priests, trying to sell his soul, etc.

So he got the same redemption arc that most marvel superheroes seem to get: "I forgot therefore I'm absolved."

Nobody gave a fuck about his OCs and the starbrand


Neither did he apparently.

It really surprised me that Marvel took its fastest growing property around the time of the hit film based on said property, and instead of just having a simple, fun little Avengers book, they dedicated not one, but TWO core Avengers titles on a long-winded, continuity heavy story that required you to read both titles. One of which didn't even have an actual Avengers team.

>Yost
Try again

>Morrison will never write Avengers
Feels bad man

That's what avengers assemble was for
And to its credit, it did have some fun stories after Bendis left
I wouldn't recommend it to anyone though

>What about Ex Nihilo

turned into a tree.

>and Black Swan?

killed by a tree. not just any tree, though. killed by fucking GROOT.

>Those symbols
Jesus, is there anything that Hickman loves more than drawing weird circle diagrams?

>Hickman
>drawing

LoSH needs Hickman, all of them have symbols for his charts.

Hickman was originally a graphic designer, and got his start in the comics industry as a writer/artist until he got popular enough that he dropped the "artist" half.

All those graphs, charts, and random concentric circles in his comics are all done by him.

Rumor is that he pitched DC for LoSH Rebirth, but anything LoSH-related goes through Paul Levitz for approval and Levitz thought Hickman's pitch was too edgy so he denied it.

Time ran out. Literally.

He spent too much time on build up and not nearly enough time on the climax. Hickman always does this. He writes these really long story arcs with tons of subplots running back years and then he ties everything up in one or two normal size issues with very few panels dedicated to each scene.

nothing went wrong

he took bendis' idea about the illuminati and cranked it up to 11. it's a continuation of his based FF run + all of Reed & Tony's little sins coming back to bite them on the ass. absolutely based run

only people who hate it are MUH CLASSIC AVENGERS or THIS IS A F4 STORY IN DISGUISE or rightclopsfags. eat shit. he gave reed & his family the perfect sendoff possible before disney made marvel drop them like a back of rocks.

i would love if they paid hickman to work on Legion but only designing charts and shit

Hickman.

Where I can read this run?

I start in the giant Hickman storytime that start with SHIELD, but at some point when Hyperion and Thor teaches stuff to the kids I lost the threads.

Or at least somebody know what issue was?
So I can search the rest.
I think is after the team go to Canada and the spy guy kill himself.

This, I'm only bummed that Infinity wasn't about Thanos coming to BTFO schmucks for destroying his favorite little glove.
Was disappointing that that element kinda fizzled away.

Newfag pls.
Just grab the stuff from libgen or a torrent.
I have a DDL of the whole thing backed up on muh cloud, but I don't wanna share it here.

>he gave reed & his family the perfect sendoff

This is fucking bullshit.
It's astronomical sized bullshit.
Of all the things I'm pissed about this run, this idea that Hickman is a fan of of the Fantastic Four and Secret War is their final story really fucking angers me.

A Fantastic Four story should be about the Fantastic Four.
Ben was stuck being a wall the whole time, then got murdered by his nephew.
Johnny appears for two panels.
Susan is stuck being the brainwahsed slut wife of Victor. We know things are wrong because she's with the wrong man. I don't want to go full retard SWJ on it, but this is some fucking 50' level of writing when it comes to her.

Hickman is not a fan of the Fantastic Four, he has a massive Doom boner only surpassed by his gigantic Reed boner.

And his Avenger run was a mess too. A lot of ambitious ideas, but a mess. Worst thing is, the main villains are dealt off screen and aren't given any rational motivation for doing the shit they're doing.

>Levitz thought Hickman's pitch was too edgy so he denied it.
Considering the way Levitz ended the LoSH, that bitch needs to fuck off.

Yeah, it was what Avengers should have been, a small number of A-Listers carrying varying amounts of B and C and D Listers. None of that Marvel's Justice League Crap that Bendis and Millar were pulling.

Now if you couldn't tell from the art, Giffen was involved in that particular bloodbath as well.

Honestly it was pretty much Levitz salting the Earth knowing the series was ending and probably not being altogether satisfied with the Nu52.

>Yost
Try Weisman.

I want a What If of Matthew Malloy not getting erased from existence by that hot australian bitch

He seemed to be on Molecule Man's level

>probably not being altogether satisfied with the Nu52.
Except for the guys stuck in Legion Lost, Nu52 Legion was just a direct continuation of Levitz own terrible Retroboot run.

that shit comes from a Sup Forums post that was clearly fake about rebirth "leaks"

it was skimpy on a lot of the detail of the F4. But it did have a good ending for them. Ben and Johnny don't need an ending cause they are still in books. The family is not, but they are together, outside the universe somewhere just letting their imagination create the marvel universe. That is a nice place for them to be, if they aren't going to be in any books

He wrote a superhero story and not the same sci-fi bullshit Hickman keeps pulling

The entire story is completely pointless. The only story that really matters is the Illuminati story and - guess what - they completely and utterly fail at resolving anything.

If the entire cast had just sat down to die, the outcome would have been the same.

Why doesn't it matter? Because Doom was already working on a solution anyway. All of the actions of Iron Man and Captain America were pointless.

You mean the run that literally stated that having too many Avengers шn a roster is a problem 4 issues in?

pointless indeed

>the black priests
>the mapmakers
>the makers
>mcfucking rabum alal
>the motherfucking beyonders

literally nothing satisfying came from all his bullshit OC

nothing, it was the best avengers run
>missed the point

The hell is Smasher's chest emblem supposed to be?

Hammer.

this desu senpai. Hickvengers is a really good ride. Then it crashes in Secret Wars and all the passengers are horribly mangled.

Fuck Secret Wars.

>people defending Hackman
kek

>Secret Warriors isn't excellent
Bait

Sometimes it looks like a propeller or an arrow or a bomb. So I wasn't sure

>Starbrand activates his powers by accident and blows up the entire college
>Over 3000 people died
>Avengers roll up in their jets, see the kid and go 'lol need some pants?'
>The repercussions of this 9/11 tier disaster are never acknowledged.

Shit like this makes me wonder if Hickman is even human.

Too much setup, not enough payoff.

>literally nothing satisfying came from all his bullshit OC
Hey.
POD is great in New Avengers. If nothing else, I reckon Hickman's Avengers is going to provide Ewing with material to work with for years.

It was his second FF run in disguise.

It's not like we had an entire event based around the same thing happening a couple of years ago or anything.

That's was fucking stupid, especially evil Thor

>"Only the unworthy can weird evil Mjolnir"

So everybody?

>So everybody?
Sure. Why not?

>all his bullshit OC
The only OCs you listed were the black priests though?

The Mapmakers were Super-Adaptoids. The Maker was Ultimate Reed. Rabum Alal was Dr. Doom. The Beyonders have existed for over 30 years before Hickman used them. None of those were created by Hickman.

I genuinely do not understand this whole "OC" meme attributed to Hickman's run.

Something identifiably derivative from Ultra Boy's chest bird thing.

>The Maker was Ultimate Reed
I think he means the Builders, the space bugs that were the most ancient civilization in space, but nobody ever heard from ever again.

Other OCs were Thanos band of misfits metalheads, Cull Obsidian.

Lost interest by Infinity

>implying Strange did anything wrong

is that who she's supposed to be a take on?

Yeah, this.

Sort of. She's a female human version of the original Smasher, introduced by Claremont waaay back in the Phoenix Saga along with the rest of the Shi'ar who were a spoof of the Legion of Super-Heroes.

bump

I actually really liked it. Maybe that's more because of what came before and then after were and are grey mushy garbage.

But Infinity sucked.

>But Secret Wars sucked.
ftfy

I kinda miss Manifold. Sure he was a team bus, be he was a cool guy. If they dedicated an issue to him and Gateway like he did with Smasher I bet it would have been great.

Even then, you could argue that the Builders were originally from newuniversal.

To be fair, it was an accident and the Avengers did arrest that kid and make him live on Stark's barely started Dyson sphere until he got his shit together.