Is a hero mantle being passed down to someone who is a different gender or minority always bad? I feel like pic related is a good one but I get the gist here that -every- change is bad.
Where, in your mind, is the line between good character change and pandering? Any good examples?
>Is a hero mantle being passed down to someone who is a different gender or minority always bad?
Of course not. Savage Dragon did it pretty well with Malcolm taking over (it helped he was developed over time). Even though Ted died in a bad way, Jaime was a good Blue Beetle character in his own right.
I think the crux of it is that people don't like it when established characters get shunted off for no reason. In superhero comics, if you're going to get rid of a guy, people prefer it when they die in a way that's noble or heroic or climactic.
When Ultimate Peter Parker died, he died defending his family and friends against his arch-enemy. People were okay with that, because they gave the guy a climactic final showdown.
It doesn't make sense for Thor considering it's his birth name, not a title.
I don't mind when DC does it because you know they're doing it for creative and altruistic reasons that best serve the story. When Marvel does it, it's always leftist propaganda.
That's because Montoya had been around for a long time before it happened and was already a well liked character.
It wasn't forced bullshit like
"btw you've never heard of her but her name is Riri and she's smarter than everyone and OMG she's the new Iron Man, YAY! diversity!" that's what people hate.
>All New All Different Question
>good
Not only she was a POC, she was also a lesbian.
If Marvel did this people would bitch no stop.
Same for Stargirl or Zatanna.
Jane Foster was also a boring side character. Why is she Thor??
Carol Danvers taking over the Captain Marvel mantle makes sense...although I wish it was better written.
You people can't be real
James Rhodes is also a good example too. He was introduced as a pilot, then they gradually filled in his backstory, and then gave him a major role when Tony fell off the wagon again.
This might not be a popular opinion but Sam as a succesor of captain America makes sense, and while I haven't read his standalone series he was fine in Ewing's CAATMA. Whor and Riri are just pandering, tho. And Miles is bland.
Damn user, shame you didn't like Montoya as the Question, I didn't think so much of her being a gay, POC woman I just thought of her becoming the Question was really naturally
She talked about liking women, what, 5 times in all 52 issues of 52? Didn't feel shoehorned at all
Thing about Vic and Renee, to me, is that they were characters who started off apart but had a handful of key character traits in common. They were both very human characters with a strong sense of justice but with a shitload of personal traumas that saw them lash out and use violence as their way of escaping the suffocating complications and anxieties of their lives. They both craved black and white solutions but lived in brutally gray worlds.
The key element in passing a mantle, to me, are those common traits, those similarities that attract two characters to each other. Vic saw in Renee what had happened to him, that yearning for the simplicity of violence, that spiral of self-loathing and destruction, and the inquisitive nature that could, through nurture and direction, overcome all that. Even if temporarily.
So there has to be a bridge between the two characters, and it has to be clear and respectul of both of them. Both Vic and Renee were already established characters way before the switch, and neither had to go OOC for it to happen. That's what made it work so well.
In some cases it seems to be more, "I am assuming the identity of this hero because they were an inspiration to me and the world, and I can only hope I do them justice."
Other times we get, "You're not the hero anymore, loser, I am! And ya'll better deal with it, bitches!"
One seems to go over better than the other.
It wasn't written like shit though. That's most people's issue with Marvel right now. They've also done it crammed within 5 years.
Question, Stargirl, and Zatanna were decades apart when taking on mantles.
>Same for Stargirl or Zatanna.
They're legacy/replacement characters though. Zatanna's father is Zatara who had his own feature in Action Comics during the Golden Age. And Stargirl takes on two legacies--Starman's and Star Spangled Kid's.
>Developed over time
That's the fucking best. Having a character there for eons and now having them as a hero is fucking awesome.
Bet you people defend turning The Spectre into a black guy too
Or replacing Tim with an half-arab half asian half jew (yes they turned Batman jewish) kid
The problem is that what Marvel is currently doing it, it's so forced and massive, that it's obvious that they are doing it for taking advantage of the current "trendy leftist" fashion, sacrificing any possibility to build step by step this change. They just want money badly, and don't care if they fucked up their whole franchises and characters in the process.
No one except Corrigan has been received well as the Spectre. It wasn't because of race though.
Sam is a good successor to Steve because they've shared comics since what, the 70s? When Sam is written as fighting rednecks who are Trump supporters or whatever, that's fucking bad
The Spectre's host is just that: a Host. They keep Him grounded in humanity.
Tim Needed to go out on his own anyways. It let's the character grow.
>Where, in your mind, is the line between good character change and pandering
Good writing. It's the key difference between Montoya becoming the Question and Jane Foster becoming Thor. You never saw Montoya making a case about feminism or shit like that. You saw her dealing with the same cases her predecessor did without any constant reminders that she was a woman or that she was Latino or that she was a lesbian. You got all that shit naturally, like talking to a good friend. Not all in your face, like talking to an SJW.
I think that both Kamala Khan and Sam Alexander are good minority Legacy characters because they both add a new perspective on the mythos and they do it without constantly moping about how they'll never be like their predecessors like pic related
>half-arab half asian half jew
That's not how halves work.
It was sarcasm to point how many ethnicities they have tried to cram into Damian
But she was always a Hispanic lesbian.
What people don't like is mostly the marketing campaign stuff. All the "it's about time we had a female/minority/whatever x" nonsense. If you just tell a story about the character and don't act like you deserve praise for telling the story you want then no one gets mad.
Like how no one got mad about Chulk because it's just Pak telling a story about a character he's written before. It's not a big deal.
>implying
she was normal in the 80s
You do know Stargirl is a legacy character, right?
It's a lot more tolerable without petty moralizing trying to tell people that they should care about the change, that its inherently better for having been changed, that the audience is wrong for preferring the older character. That somehow the change matters enough to praise it, but not criticize it.
That was his point, legacy characters who are female.
She didn't exist in the 80s.
She was just Latino in the animated series and it never got into her sexuality until she was introduced in the comics, where she was always a lesbian.
honey, no one was normal in the 80's
she was in Knightfall
user Montoya was an OC for BTAS
I didn't realize 1993 was the 80s.
Knightfall was in 1993.
>Montoya
>1980's character
I think you need to leave, Sup Forums
I think I could dig the Flash and his legacy characters (and the Rogues) if they were all girls. I don't like them as is.
Whatever, might as well be. Still before I was born so it's old enough.
Well, now you know.
Montoya deserved the role and it didnt felt forced.
More important DC didnt tried to sell it as diversity
Absolutely it's about writing.
Surprise! Your favorite character is suddenly gone / dead / disgraced / whatever and we're replacing them with someone you don't know, don't care about and (naturally) they're of a gender/race/whatever that's currently trending.
That's just... stupid.
Introducing a character over time - like at least a year please, and I'd prefer more personally - and developing that they're *worthy* of the role, that they're strong and good on their own, that they're someone you already care about and want to give a chance to - and then actually having a story reason why it makes sense... not contrived bullshit but developed real reason for the character.
Tony Stark / Ironman could totally take a break right now and have it make sense - he's dealing with a ton of shit, the whole civil war 2 stuff, he's been burning himself out (more in the movies than the comic but the city building, Arno, space , having his personality flipped (what happened with that?), the universe ending, etc etc...
If he wants to take a break I could get that. But have a character worthy of the role take over, not a completely new random ass nobody be forced on us. Especially when it's so obviously a publicity stunt.
Pissed me off when they did it to Ultimate Peter too. Still pissed about that.
>there are people this young on Sup Forums
disgusting
user, people born in '96 are going to 20 years old this year
Niggas is old
I still don't understand creating Riri when Lila Rhodes was literally right there
It is illogical
why even have the engraving on the hammer if you're not going to pass it around?
well, there's many things I think should go into this decision
1). what was the relationship between the characters
2). how did the character get the title in the first place
3). what situations surround the passing of the mantle
now, a great thing that does this are the green lanterns. why? being called "green lantern" is basically no different than being called "officer", so it not only works for Hal Jordan to Jon Stewart and Guy Gardner, it can literally work for anyone you wanna make a green lantern. this is a great way to pass on the name
as a counterpoint you have Thor. when Whor came around, she not only took his powers (something Captain America, Storm, and Dr. Doom, and Beta Ray Bill all did without having to take the name), she literally took his Odin-given name. another great example is Captain Marvel vs Miss Marvel. whereas everyone just calls the original one Captain Marvel, it's because his true name is Mar Vell and he literally earned the rank of captain in the Kree military. granted, Carol COULD earn the rank of captain and technically call herself captain Marvel too, but the fact that she just took his name like she did was dumb and forced
now, one title I can agree with is Sam Wilson becoming Captain America. he's an interesting character and was a great ally to Cap during his earlier years, granted I don't really agree with most of what I've seen him doing as the new Captain America. still, they did this in a less cringey manner than they did most of the others because they pre-established their relationship as friends. If I had to choose, however, I think that Buckey would be a better choice because his roll as Cap's original sidekick and he would have a reason to want to not be called "winter soldier" anymore
Nah I'm aware of that because of sports and draft years and shit. They just shouldn't be here and congregating with me.
It was more natural than most, but Montoya still seemed like pandering. Maybe because she's specifically a gay latino woman.
it's Bendis. Every since he got made to use an OC for Alias instead of Jessica Drew he's fallen head-first into that plague upon writers in which they are obsessed with taking any excuse to create a new character so that on the off chance one gets kinda popular, they make more money as the creator
Carol doesn't make sense because Captain Marvel isn't his superhero name, it's his name and RANK
he's Captain Mar Vell of the Kree military. she resigned from the military
she's a Captain of Alpha Flight
that ain't a military. that's a goddamned superhero team
honestly, I'd argue calling her Colonel Marvel rather than Captain. it's a higher rank, it's paying respect to him as her originator while granting her something new added to the character
I want a story about someone having an intervention for Tony over all the crazy shit that's happened since he became Iron Man. He's lost two companies, became an alcoholic, fallen off the wagon multiple times, fired from being SecDef, fired from being director of SHIELD after being blindsided by an alien infiltration, AXIS, forcing Rhodes to pretend to be him as Iron Man, giving an Iron Man suit to a 15 year old girl, picking a fight with everyone else who uses powered armor including an Avenger, a federal law enforcement agency, and an intelligence agency, and having his current company headquarters blown up.
She was already Mar Vell's sidekick and de facto legacy when she returned to the Ms. Marvel moniker. Plus Carol was a major in the AF, captain is a lower rank. She and Steve joke about it in an issue.
Bucky was already Cap for awhile following Steve's death in Brubaker's run.
then kill Thor off or have him actually do something to become unworthy not just have him all of a sudden become unworthy because someone whispered something in his ear.
as far as I can tell, she got to Colonel in the US military before she resigned. if she wanted to continue his work, why not just use HER rank rather than his?
it wasn't just him
apparently fury knows ancient magic because now even Odin can't lift it
The real truth is that they just gotta use that Captain Marvel trademark or risk losing it to DC.
to be fair I imagine ancient magic is pretty easy to study as a Watcher
Who did Carol have to suck off in the Chair Force to get a colonel rank so young?
who needs interventions when you can just kill someone and rollback to a backup?
>Is a hero mantle being passed down to someone who is a different gender or minority always bad?
No. However, 90% of the time it's just shoehorned in for sales reasons and complete garbage.
it's their own fault. the Captain Marvel from DC came over 20 years b4 Marvel's
you don't see them trying to keep a character called "Super Man" do you?
The problem i have with it is that it tends to undermine the point that is trying to be made.
It's supposed to be an equality thing 'Hey kids a girl can do everything a guy can do, here look!'
But thats not what its showing, nothing about these characters is their own. They aren't popular just because, they're popular because the original was popular before them. The message this actually sends is 'You will never succeed on your own, you need to get a guy to do it for you'
Renee Montoya was better as Bullock partner.
They should just make Question I which the personality of the JLU.
>there are Capfags that haven't read Bucky and Natasha's Wild American Murder Extravaganza
BuckyCap was fucking phenomenal. Bru did an exceedingly better job with him than he did with Steve.
I agree Sam is a good successor too, though. It's a shame Spencer is allowed anywhere near the Cap name though.
Anyone think Memender came up with the Hydracap plot himself? It seems straight up his alley.
I'd be cool with that
>They should just make Question I which the personality of the JLU.
no
is that the run that had
>Hey fellow avengers, I have guns. Any avenger need a gun? They're great.
Didn't the early stuff basically have a Captain Marvel angle to it?
It's was the Left-Wing Rorshcahrch
can you clarify that?
>Jaime was a good Blue Beetle character in his own right.
Helps to have actual growth throughout a series, rather than just instinctively being super awesome right off the bat.
Maybe? Could've been Bendis. I don't remember the Avengers showing up very much. It's been some time though.
He did have his Luger with which he dispensed righteous patriotic fury onto the Red Skull's cronies.
>>there are Capfags that haven't read Bucky and Natasha's Wild American Murder Extravaganza
I don't read many comics at all, bro
still, I think that someone who's been either a sidekick or partner to the hero can be a great person to pass the title onto if it's done right
if you've posted yours and are waiting for (you)s, try redrawing someone else in your own style
Bringing back the dead to take back the role pisses me off far more than legacy characters ever will. Hal and Barry being two of the biggest examples.
Hal more so because it was at the cost of the great idea of him being the Spectre's new host. It was a great way of continuing to redeem himself, already set in motion by the bad ass way he sacrificed himself in final night.
It's great man.
Didn't mean to insult, I was just kinda surprised.
It's all some really great stuff.
Basically, I'd go from Bru's first volume #1, the Steve resurrection arc, the Cap epilogue of Fear Itself, through Winter Soldier #14. Skip the Steve Cap relaunch. It wasn't very good iirc.
Also, the winter kills one-shot.
It's so worth it.
>The one shot is worth checking out
Fixed.
It all depends on the writer and whether or not their entire existence can be summed up beyond their ethnicity or gender.
She was shot down, captured, then escaped with intel as a major so that probably helped her rise in rank. She could have shaved a few years off her promotion timeline and retired right after she hit colonel. Normally it takes about 20 years minimum to hit colonel so most reach the rank in their early 40s.
Carol's backstory doesn't make sense chronologically. She started as enlisted before going officer, retired from the Air Force, worked at NASA for a few years, and has spent several years as a superhero. Realistically Carol would need to be in her sixties, and if even if we retconned her as starting out as an AF officer she'd still need to be in her fifties.
The problem with the pic related though is that she is still a downgrade from Vic Sage. Not a bad character at all though.
Except it ended up being a title when his sorta son and daughter took the title with complete sincerity.
I think one of the worst things about Riri Williams is that there is a lot of potential for good character work that simply isn't happening.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but both Genis and Phylla were Kree military.
Theres one idea mentioned that I don't think anybody's covered, and that's because of universe snapback, any legacy hero, particularly that of an A list character should have a landing spot for when they retcon the main guy back.
In the case of the Green lanterns, they're all cops on duty. Rhodey goes to War Machine. Rambeau becomes Captain Photon.
Otherwise you have fucked up shit like the Barry/Wally situation.
I think it's hilarious how hard Bendis is fighting the Kid Arachnid name because of this effect.
Half the shit around the Captain Marvels don't make sense. It's as much a placeholder for the copyright as anything else..
I think it's likely that Kamala will eventually take up the role.
Don't worry, someone else will come along to clean up Bendis' mess so he can smuggly claim later how great he knew the character was all along.
I don't agree with either of those cases any less than I agree with this one
It wasn't a problem during the decades Barry was dead and irrelevant.
>Otherwise you have fucked up shit like the Barry/Wally situation.
They figured it out eventually that no one minds multiple Flashes though. Of course they should have known with Jay being around before anyway.
List "good" Legacies:
Hawkeye
Some various Hulks, well before he got murdered.
Venom (Flash)
The Ant-Men
Wasp, maybe.
BuckyCap, SamCap
Beta Ray Bill
These all have an element of not shitting all over the previous holder's memory. Or dumping on plot threads 4 much shock. Actually, both Cap instances probably fit that, but the successors feel organic and make good sense.
Hawkeye is a bit different in that she was was just waifubait, but when Hawkguy comes back they have a cooperative relationship which was quite cool, and haha, well written.
I actually liked the Ghost Rider that was around during Fear Itself, too. The feats were rad.
Jamie Beetle is good too
Hey, you spent some good thought writing that. Here's a (you), because I liked it.
Her original backstory was simply that she was an AF officer in charge of security at the base where Mar Vell worked. It wasn't until later that it got bloated.
Seriously, so much shit. Riri feeling coddled and unable to do things on her own merits, Tony being unable to bring himself to continue being Iron Man and Tony Stark, a tension between Riri and Lila over Riri getting handed the Iron Man armor, a bunch of shit that you could have just by logically following Tony handing over the Iron Man suit to a fifteen year old.
it's never okay. anyone who thinks that lesser non-white people can be superheroes is an obvious racist
I've always found the term 'vaguely ethnic' to work well for me.
It's not really that hard. He's half-white, quarter Middle Eastern, and quarter Asian.
>handed
Silly user, she built her own armor haha! She don't need no whitey.
Honestly, I'd like to see Tony take another break and fund an Iron Corps or something like that.
Force him to trust other people instead of giving up all flustered while giving him some time to rest and refocus. Maybe that's what will happen, and that's a neat premise if they go that way, but also >benis