Shamelessly bumping with a picture of Radovan Karadzic with a beard in '08.
Camden King
...
Grayson Allen
Isn't that guy a famous doctor who's published numerous articles on alternative medicine, and has appeared in multiple television programs?
James King
That's Radovan before he was caught.
I think he was riding on the coattails of that guy, basically doing alternative medicine shit while looking like him.
He didn't get caught until '08 so he was doing pretty well.
Zachary Hill
...
Daniel Roberts
I was kidding, it just shocks me every time how well he hid for years right in Belgrade. It doesn't look like him at all, but it's him. I'm pretty sure he was issued a fake passport and identity by the Serb govt or else bought it off the black market - not like he wasn't connected...
I specialised in yugo history in school but mostly on ww2 so might not be the best person to redpoll you
Nicholas Morales
What was Yugo like ww2/post ww2? Did the croats/bosniaks/serbs keep fighting eachother? I know they had a civil war or two.
Brandon Allen
Nazis invaded in 1941 on suspicion that the allies would launch an invasion through the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Took them three weeks to get a surrender from the government, and they then divided up the country. Slovenia was annexed. Serbia was put under military administration. Macedonia annexed by Bulgaria. Other parts annexed by Hungary and Italy. What was left largely turned into the NDH (Independent State of Croatia). The NDH was essentially a puppet state that had little more freedom than being under direct German admin. It was at all times occupied by German forces. It never experienced peace. It never enjoyed popular support, except briefly at the beginning. Hitler was never a fan of its leader, Ante Pavelic. The German administration (mainly Horstenau, the German plenipotentiary for Southern Europe, but we even have direct memos from Hitler) thought him and his team were complete nutjobs - i can provide sources if you want - Horstenau's memoirs before execution and some other files we have. Hitler originally asked the Croatian peasant's party, dude called Macek, in charge, who turned it down. Then offered it to literally a terrorist organization (their only actions were to assassinate a yugo royal in france a couple years earlier) called the Ustasa, with Pavelic at it's head, and a couple other guys. Slavko Kvaternik was another big name, he declared the NDH when Pavelic was still in exile abroad, and Slavko's son Dido, the police chief, was labeled 'the most feared person in Croatia' and personally enjoyed massacring people. moving on..
sorry i'm typing all by hand
Xavier Smith
>Redpill me on the Bosnian War, Sup Forums.
The Serbs tried to remove kebab. In the 90s, this seemed kooky and eccentric to the outside world, and it is only decades on that we realize just how right they were
Jason Russell
So ww2 yugo was pretty damn bad, to say the least.
Jayden Williams
it was practically a civil war with German and Italian involvement
Benjamin Wood
NDH was about 50% Croat, 33% Serb, 15% Muslim (today called Bosniaks). Looking for support, the Ustasa declared the muslims as an integral part of Croatia and on equal footing with Catholicism. here's a photo of Pavelic in Islamic garb. In a public speech he declared the NDH 'an islamic state'
The NDH was never in full control of its territory. It did an awful job of running the country. They sucked up German resources like crazy. I personally believe Germany may have won the war if they hadn't invaded yugoslavia but i haven't taken these courses in years so all my shit is outdated, I could be wrong.
The Ustasa (crazy Croats) massacred TONS of people. Death toll in NDH is comparable to Christian Poland. NDH Jews were massacred en masse, as bad or worse than in fully Nazi territories. The 3rd largest camp in Europe was the Jasenovac camp. current estimates about 75000 dead at Jasenovac. Don't believe Titoist historians who claim 500,000 etc... The Ustasa mostly massacred Serbs. The end goal of the NDH was to create an ethnically pure territory. I would also guess they were planning on killing the Muslims once the Serbs were gone.
The official doctrine - to expel a third, to convert a third, and to kill another third of the Serbs in the NDH. Bear in mind that Nazi Germany was trying to get rid of a 2% jewish population, whereas the NDH was trying to get rid of 33% serb. Hitler seems a bit controversial here - he did 'give the green light for serbophobia' but also spoke very badly of the Ustasa, Pavelic, and the NDH adminsitration, saying that even if he wanted to eradicate the serbs, there were simply too many!
Joshua Long
we dindu nuffin
Lincoln Jenkins
you're pretty knowledgable and rather objective diaspora? btw Jasenovac was around 100,000 victims and all around some 200-300.000 Serbs were killed in NDH
Jayden Rodriguez
i was at the icty, ask me anythin
Colton Wilson
Bear in mind that the Germans massacred a lot of people (not compared to the Ustasa, but in absolute numbers). If you look at maps of Ustasa killings, they are centered in areas with mixed populations - likely to try and create ethnically homogeneous areas. It was difficult to massacre in purely Serb areas for resistance reasons, which I'm about to get to.
German killings occurred almost entirely in areas with heavy resistance and did not discriminate racially in their massacres. The German policy was to massacre and terrorize areas with violence in line with their 'maximization of violence' policy for putting down rebels. This includes killing 100 civs for every 1 german dead.
Sorry for being disorganized, it's been years - a lot of years - since doing this
Dylan Martin
>saved Post more rare Karadciz. He is the most fashionable war hero of whole yugoslawia
Ethan Lee
not diaspora just did really well in school, was interested, but am way out of practice. Yep and a comparable amount of serbs also fled across the Drina
ask any questions i'll try not to be biased - i don't really have a stake in this since i'm not diaspora :P
Xavier Barnes
>Could this have all been avoided if the Bosniak Muslims did not want their own country?
It could have been avoided if the bosnian serbs were allowed to break away from bosnia the same way the muslims were allowed to break from yugo.
>Why is Radovan Karadzic a 'war criminal'? He's not, they exonerated him very quietly this month.
Christian Kelly
>What really happened from '92-'95? Zionists pushed for the dismembering of Yugoslavia because it was free from Rothschild Central Bank control
>Why is Radovan Karadzic a 'war criminal'? Because he committed war crimes, but then again so did his opposition. The focus was put on him because he represented anti-Zionist interests.
>Why didn't Croatia and Serbia carve up Bosnia and Herzegovina before a real war started? They had their hands full with their own problems.
>Why did the Croats side with the Bosniaks on the independence referendum? Because their way to independence was to gang up on, and weaken Serbia
Gavin Butler
Karadzic did nothing wrong
Evan Hernandez
they exonarated Milošević on the count of being involved in criminal enterprise (for Bosnia) they sentenced Karadžić everything you wrote was correct you know more than 95% of idiots living here
Liam Lee
Why would the head of the Ustasa call the NDH an 'Islamic State'?
I had no idea about Jasenovac. That's insane.
Jack Gonzalez
I wonder how sick actual Balkanites get of seeing threads like this every day, with people from across the world telling them how it went down like they were there.
It must be pretty infuriating. I am sure they just want to move on and talk about current politics.
Nathaniel Watson
whoops you're right my bad
Angel Ramirez
>icty When were you there? They're still going on right?
James Gonzalez
he grew up with Muslims so he was Muslimboo Pavelić was born in Bosnia
Asher Lewis
...
Levi Thompson
Why did he hate the Serbs so much?
Connor Johnson
I'd assume because he was a Croat.
As far as I can tell now the Croats sided with the Bosniaks in the referendum due to their shared hate of the Serbs.
Aiden Scott
Maybe. But it seems like it's all they talk about in /yugo/ on Sup Forums
Wyatt Brown
As I said the NDH never had full control of their territory. They almost certainly would have had an easier time if they didn't engage gangs of psychopaths to go around massacring innocents, at least until they had stabilized the country.
There were lots of resistance groups. Yugoslavia is one of the only- if not the only, maybe Albania as well? country who's resistance successfully fought off the allies consistently and without massive amounts of help. They in fact received very little, although one British dude airdropped in to hang out with Mihailovic (not to be mixed up with the future Milosevic). The main partisans at the beginning were the Cetniks. They were a monarchist group and very pro-serb. They fled the mountains in Serbia after a while and seized land and popularity in Serb majority areas. They are roughly comparable with the Ustasa except they never had a government. They were run by Draza Mihailovic who had a nice-uncle type of look to him. He is responsible for lots of massacres of Croats and especially Muslims. This is a source of lots of Muslim-Serb issues today. I want to be clear that although he was responsible for genocide he was not as bad as the Ustasa when you look at the numbers, although today both sides will support each other's histories. The Germans even supported him periodically in fighting the other partisans...
The other partisans were confusingly actually called The Partisans and they were run by Josef Broz Tito. They were communists but operated largely independently from Moscow. Tito is pretty popular in the historical community today likely because he didn't target any group for genocide specifically but it is important to note that he is responsible for lots of massacring - both directly and indirectly. for more information read about the Bleiburg masssacres which he is directly responsible for.
>tfw based whites were trying to stop muslims, but NATO bombed them into multiculturism
Angel White
Slavko Goldstein's 1941 was genuinely excellent. The Ustase are underrated as all-time Bad Dudes and I don't think the press coverage in the 1990s would have talked about that context too much. I think Tito's idea of a "national conversation" was throwing nationalists on weird islands?
who knows you get drilled into it from childhood in any case after war he claimed he didn't really hate Serbs and that all crimes were done by Maks Luburić (whose father was unironically Serb from Montenegro, from the same area my mothers family is from)
Jacob Allen
Is it safe to say the Croats and Bosniaks hated Serbs more than they hated each other?
Ryan Clark
They all killed each others. It was a 3 sided war. It just turns out the Muslims are the best at dying like rats.
Logan Torres
Ustase killed a lot of my mother's family members. They were terrible.
Also this.
Jose Evans
thank you!
To appease the 15% muslims in the country. Certain accounts (mid-low reliability) even claim that Muslims made up 95% of Ustasa members. This is obviously pretty impossible but it's undeniable that the Muslim population did partake in lots of the Ustasa massacres against the Serb population. Their support was necessary to run the country (which they were unable to do even with this).
He was an old MP from Zagreb and was a nationalist. Serb hatred goes further back in Croat nationalism. Read about Starcevic, croatia's 'father of the fatherland' who claimed that 'Slavoserbs (serboslavs? don't remember)' were the most despicable on earth, etc, etc, you can find that on wiki about Starcevic
anyways, con't soon
Blake Anderson
>roughly comparable to ustashas movement as movement, nope, however Mihailović never had full control so some of his subordinates ran wild in the end most of chetniks joined Tito and communists, same happened with regular Croatian army (Home Guard, they generally weren't involved in ustasha massacres) local commander (Đurišić) started his own genocide of Muslims in the area between Serbia and Montenegro later he got Iron Cross on account of anti-partisan actions
Gabriel Young
Insane, pre-ww2 was there a lot of animosity between the groups?
Nicholas Johnson
1. Yugoslavia existed under strong man Tito 2. There were no other parties other than communist so the natural secondary identification was ethnicity (not republican, labour, democrat etc). 2. Tito died so the Presidency went to different ethnic groups on a rotating basis. 3. Serbia has their turn. Milosevic decides that the Serbians will not yield power when their turn is up. 4. BiH is the only state not homogenous. Both sides claim Bosniaks as their own. 5. Serbs and Croats go to war over BiH 6. The world intervenes to tell Serbia to STFU. 7. Peace accords signed in Dayton. Creates a (really) two state solution with the RS for the Serbs and the rest for the Corats and Bosniaks.
Charles Bennett
depends where after 90's and war between Croats and Muslims in Bosnia, I'd say hatred is equal but really Serbians (Serbs from Serbia) don't hate Muslims that much, just like Croats from Croatia don't hate them either not many Muslims there
Noah Carter
Why couldn't a unified non-commie Yugoslavia work?
Was it just religion?
Aren't you guys, apart from Slovenia, pretty much the same culture, language, etc?
Matthew Smith
Bilbo fought with osama bin laden against euros. The jew gen clark said the euros killed FOUR GORRILIAN hadjis to get public support. Bilbo was wrong. Also israel wanted them broken up
Ryder Thomas
Serbia did absolutely nothing wrong except not finishing off the job they started.
Jaxon Reed
religion and foreign influence
Matthew Davis
>bilderburg massacres
David Brooks
So really the hate all comes from the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
Wyatt Smith
there was animosity but not as much Muslims were always hated though, for obvious reasons, but Serb-Croatian relations were cool
Luke Price
By America?
What would they gain by destabilizing Yugoslavia?
Gavin Roberts
In short - in the end the Italians who occupied half the NDH were booted in 43 and the Germans assumed full 'control' which didn't mean much since the country was half run by a bunch of rebelling partisans. The Partisans and the Cetniks did collaborate a bit to fight the Ustasa, but they kept turning on each other. Tito and Mihailovic even met in person a couple of times. Needless to say they hated each other. They each collaborated, and fought, with each other and the Germans. Tito probably got a lot of success because he disregarded race and religion and allowed anyone to join his ranks.
In the end, it was pretty simple. The Germans couldn't afford to keep up fighting an endless war against a population that unilaterally hated them while fighting the Eastern front. They lost a war of attrition. They evacuated. NDH didn't stand a chance. Partisans formed a country and - importantly - the Soviet Union never occupied the country. Cetnik and Ustasa reserves fought on in the mountains i think unti 1948. Mihailovic was executed in...1946 i think. Pavelic got help from the Vatican and fled to Argentina. He got sick and died in Spain in 1959.
Luburic was fucked too he was involved at Jasenovac, i don't remember in what capacity though
In general sources agree that the Croat civil population didn't participate or support the massacring of Serbs. Sources differ on the Muslim attitude, some say there was popular support for the killing amongst Muslims. There is no way the population would not have known about the killing and even the camps
Michael Hill
And it all went to shit with Pavelic and his campaign against Bosnian Serbs?
Brandon Clark
Why is Radovan Karadzic a 'war criminal'?
Because his side lost.
Why didn't Croatia and Serbia carve up Bosnia and Herzegovina before a real war started?
It isnt an easy dividing line. Want to carve up Tennessee based on methodist and baptist? Same issue here.
Why did the Croats side with the Bosniaks on the independence referendum?
Because it was a bulwark against the Serbs who wanted a south slav republic they dominated. this goes back to pre-wwi. Also read up on WWII and their behavior. Moreover, they saw the Bosniaks as their own and for their taking. They presented themselves as in the western tradition (catholic) while the Serbs said they stood against the eastern hoards.
Ratko, Radovan, and Slobodan, what did they do wrong? Why are they war criminals? As far as I know they weren't responsible for Srebenica.
The people in charge of a political/military engagement are responsible for the actions of the paramilitary if they lose. This is called reality. Dont lose.
Could Republika Srpska/Serbia have won without the UN intervening?
WWIII.
What did the Croats do during the war?
Killed Serbs and Bosniaks then sided with the Bosniaks. Both sides claimed them as their own who had been converted by the Ottomans.
Could this have all been avoided if the Bosniak Muslims did not want their own country?
They wanted their own country because of the war. The war was pushed on them because of the imbalance of Serb and Croat interests. Neither had a majority in BiH and they wanted it.
Jonathan Taylor
Good god, Yugo was always a tangled mess.
Christopher Cox
that's where people are most extremist and hateful, but no Muslims and Christians don't like each other in Montenegro either, but here it's rather different situation it's kinda hard to explain this to a foreigner who doesn't know the mentality of people here it's kinda like Lebanon if you want another example
Landon Gomez
They didn't want a strong nation in the Balkans. Also Camp Bondsteel.
Liam Cooper
not just America, and contrary to memes Americans didn't want Yugoslavia gone, they just wanted communism gone but then shit happened and situation changed and they adjusted accordingly (and drew some shitty moves, but that depends on perspective I guess) it's kinda funny but before 90's Americans were seen as allies here by many, despite communist propaganda (which wasn't as rabid as in USSR of course)
Carter Cooper
>Aren't you guys, apart from Slovenia, pretty much the same culture, language, etc?
The idea of a south slav state existed before WWI. The Austro-Hungaran Austrians used the idea to counter Hungarian influence. This is why they promoted the Coratian nationalism. This is why they wanted Sarajevo. The black Hand fag was a south slav nationalist who wanted a state for them.
After WWI both the Croats and Serbs argued who would dominate the new state. They both couldnt decide and uring WWII they fought over these issues. Its a carry over from that. Religion in this case is like Northern Ireland. It isnt the cause but it is a badge for the ethnic and political struggle.
Jeremiah Cox
Do you really think it would've spiraled into WWIII without UN intervention?
As far as the dividing line go, I read some time ago that Croatian and Serbian politicians met to discuss a plan that they agreed on without mentioning it to the Bosniaks. No idea why it was not tried.
I understand. How are current Muslim/Christian relations in Montenegro?
Wyatt Powell
>They didn't want a strong nation in the Balkans
No, you dumb niggers wanted to start a regional war for your own jack-off fantasies because your friend Russia made you feel good. You started a war in a region which cause two world wars. Enjoy your bombs over Belgrade.
Like America gives a fucking shit over Yugo-whogivesafuckistan.
Angel Jones
Luburić was commander of Jasenovac that's when relations were damaged severely I believe, despite post-war Yugoslav state which followed it resurfaced in 80's but there were tensions before that all in all I'd say our biggest mistake was creating Yugoslavia in the first place should've took Serb-majority lands and let Croats and Slovenes go but that's easy to say in hindsight
Luis Hall
Americans decided to own the place and they did it with muslim & croatian, later albanian, help, because they've been known as everybodys bitch.
Jackson Bennett
i mean really roughly, as in 'Ustasa were massacring, fighting, nationalist croats and Cetniks were massacring, fighting, nationalist Serbs' but you're right they were pretty different. Towards the end it got very clear that to you had to join the Partisans to live
Hope I could give a bit of insight here, i have some sources i could dig up if anything. You can see some of the fucked pictures from the Jasenovac camp here
I guess i don't need a disclaimer that the pics are a bit fucked up since this is Sup Forums
One last thing to add - German killings in Yugoslavia were mostly done in typical German style. Shootings and efficiency, it's even been documented. There's a report (referred to by Horstenau? I'm not sure, but I could find it) that talks about the killing of 100 civilians and the report is just pure, german efficiency. It's like reading a car manual.
The Ustasa killings were just done in a brutal fashion. The norm was to be inhuman. There's unbelievable amounts of stories. All the groups were bad, but the Ustasa are notoriously bad for gruesome killing and shit.
Ayden Gonzalez
They're considered war criminal because they stood up for historically oppressed Christians against Muslims
Jack Lopez
>Everyone genociding each other >BOMB THE CHRISTIANS QUICKLY
Asher Sanders
as always, people don't like each other, but it doesn't affect relations that much I wouldn't even call it hatred, just some lingering mistrust you see where Serbia and Bosnia were rather integrated Ottoman provinces with relative peace highlands here were never integrated and Muslims and Christians fought centuries of sectarian conflict Russia wasn't that friendly in 90's though, Yeltsin hated Milošević
Benjamin Flores
>Do you really think it would've spiraled into WWIII without UN intervention?
Personally, no. Because Russia was a mess at the time. I doubt there was much threat. BUT this was close to mainline Europe and those in charge thought there WAS potential for it to happen. I did a PhD on it (yeah I know, who cares) and it seems this was for Europe a point of major concern.
Now, the bigger issue, the one that is ignored in my opinion, is the role of the EU currently.
BiH is THE major test for the EU. They can supplant themselves as a valid system, especially in the face of a resurgent Russian Federation, if they can make BiH work. It doesnt currently. If they can solve the problems there they can show they are a major world player. They fact they have so many issues shows they are weak and cant be taken seriously. The BREXIT ads to it, but the BiH issue is tell tale sign for international parties. Pol is concerned about refugees, right? Just loom into the visa/passport issues with BiH and Croatia. Its a mess and the black market runs wild.
Camden Smith
why is the image of a Saudi holding a beheaded Serb captioned 'Croatian soldier holding the head of a Christian civilian' when the picture itself is captioned differently
Jaxon Evans
Out of any modern history topic the balkans is the most confusing imo.
David Carter
Germans did awful shit too occasionally here they even burned and shot entire villages alive I talked to a German here whose grandpa was German from Vojvodina, recruited into SS and saw people gathered in a church and burned alive, and deserted afterwards, according to his diary oh did I mention there was plenty of Germans in Yugoslavia too, but they were massacred and expelled by communists after WW2 that was another genocide I guess
James Clark
conflicts in Middle East and Africa are convoluted as fuck, but you don't really care much, naturally, because it's Africa and ME Balkans are still Europe
Bentley Bell
>Russia wasn't that friendly in 90's though, Yeltsin hated Milošević
Historical perspective of Pro-Serb policy. Should have clarified that. Was Milosevic a nationalist? Meh, he wanted to be Tito and saw the ethnic Serb thing (including the Kosovo and Montenegro question) as key to holding power as Serbia was one of the bi-polar powers.
It is my opinion that the Tito one-party-state left only ethnicity as a vehicle to claim power after Tito died. You can argue against that if you wish.
Charles Taylor
read up on it. It isnt that bad at all. It all comes together very nicely.
Noah Kelly
good analysis on Bosnia but it's also because they don't want a Muslim country where radicalism would grow in case of dissolution look at Kosovo, and they were pretty secular in past
Logan Campbell
Holy shit, Jasenovac was absolutely insane. How many of the guards/officers were brought to justice for what they did?
Do you think the BiH can survive the next 20 years? How are things looking over there right now?
My head is trying to wrap itself around all of this still. It's insane how convoluted it all is. But so far I'm loving learning all about it. From the Ustase to Tito, it's all very interesting.
Any good books you can recommend?
Nicholas Cox
no, you're absolutely correct Serbs in Bosnia were nationalist, Milošević wasn't not surprisingly they (Karadžić and Milošević) hated each other real Serbian nationalists at that time were Vuk Drašković and Vojislav Šešelj, though in the end both turned out to be flukes
Levi Carter
Karadzic was the President of the Republika Srpska, Milosevic was the president of Serbia.
Where does Ratko Mladic fall into all of this?
Noah Morgan
>brought to justice those who didn't escape were shot after the war, there were few trials see Bleiburg, it was one of biggest massacres
Elijah Long
Mladić was commander of Army of Republika Srpska (VRS)
Ryder Sanchez
>but it's also because they don't want a Muslim country where radicalism would grow in case of dissolution
What you point out is one of the fascinating things about BiH. It is a state with a large Muslim population, but it also has a great deal of secularism. In the same way France or Italy is a 'catholic state.' Now, there has been a great deal of extremist influence (obv you had radical clerics and the bin laden types came to fight during the war) but if there was ever a case for secularization it is Bosnia. The Muslims are largely still western and this needs to be coaxed the right way to keep the population from going jihadi. If you were to say that islam is 'secular', tamed, and peaceful, like Christianity in the west, then Bosnia is the test case.
Serbia particularly preached isolation because they presented themselves as defenders of the west against Islam. Croatia, basically, said these are good catholics that can be brought back into the fold. I think they could be muslim and still be western because they have that western experience historically. Very tricky and a perfect case study for how to fix Islam.
IMO, pump them full of levis jeans and MTV. They want to drink and fuck more than blow themselves up in the market..
Dylan Johnson
They all hate each other Brazil. Ethnic hatred is second nature to slavs, especially Balkan slavs.
Isaac Lewis
Are there any other prominent people that I should know about during the Bosnian War?
Lincoln Jenkins
You don't hate them, you just don't trust them? Or do I still not understand?
Samuel Martin
eh, I'm afraid radicalism is growing there, depends on area Sarajevo for example was always secular as fuck, but some areas in Central Bosnia are less secular today Muslims in the region between Serbia and Montenegro (Sandžak, or Raška) are radicalized as fuck
David Torres
Yup. Serbia and Croatia are like Poland and Lithuania. And Czechia and Slovakia. And Poland and Russia. And Russia and Ukraine. Probably a few others I've missed too. Point is, Slavs hate each other.
Elijah Cruz
good question, it's not my album i just found the album on plebbit a couple months ago
it's actually really interesting when you get into it. It's shocking how deep everything goes.
Oh yeah, Germans did massacre a lot, but the sources i read specified that it was done largely in partisan areas in an effort to reduce rebel actions. In practice they still massacred tons of people though.
Yeah some sources I read were from Germans in northern Yugo. Tito booting and killing them all is one of his genocides. I wish people talked more about that, because everyone seems to glorify him. he may not have been as bad but he was still a commie and massacred people.
Which area are you from?
A couple high ranking officials escaped but not guards/officers at Jasenovac. Ustasa members who didn't defect to Partisans were killed. IIRC Tito did occasionally offer amnesty to Ustasa who defected - but that would have been during the war when he needed the manpower.
For book recs, idk.
Hoare, Marko Attila. "Genocide in the Former Yugoslavia Before and After Communism."jstor.org/stable/20787620
Redžić, Enver. Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Second World War
Aiden Sanders
can't really single them out but yeah Biljana Plavšić for example, she was literally a Nazi and thought Muslims are genetically inferior some Croat and Muslim leaders too, like Boban, Halilović, Kordić, Izetbegović, Orić there was also a Serb who fought for Muslim army (formally Bosnian army), Divjak there was sizeable contigent of Serbs and Croats who fought in "Muslim" army
Ethan Cruz
Serbs did nothing wrong. Remove kebab.
Camden Robinson
>Do you think the BiH can survive the next 20 years? How are things looking over there right now?
Here is what I generally see. The youth today (take it or leave it) want the EU more than they want to be part of Serbia or Croatia or their own Bosniak state. They want to be part of the wider community. They youth and civil society make these inter-ethnic connections where they are more focused on things like jobs and corruption than who goes to what church on the weekends. Again, their faith is in the EU (this is the data Ive seen).
I say that the EU finds a fast-tract to get them into the Union. This will ends the stupid ass visa black market that allows criminals to get into the EU by getting Croat ID and then passing across the border (ethnic croats get to go to croatia then they get the whole EU, welcome all afghanis who know a guy). Also, this will give them the economic opportunities that EU states enjoy.
The problem is that the EU cant/wont deal with the divisions (police forces, inter-state non-cooperation) and this sustains the fissures.
The Dayton Agreement was really the only solution because otherwise people wouldnt even consider the proposed BiH state. However the Accords just sustain the disease at its current level. Integration into the EU is the best bet.
Will we see a devolution where the RS joins Serbia and the rest joins croatia (or forms a soverign state)? Likely no because neither state wants to bring in a problem into their fold. I cant predict the future but I dont see the state braking apart. Just continuing to exist as its dysfunctional self.
On books. Man, too many to recommend. The best source, I can tell you, is to read the Dayton Agreement front to back (the Constitution has a few changes since so check those out). Read it close and pick out where the problems lie. Ethnic quotas would make a SJW blush, but its the only way. The agreement stales the progression but I dont see another way to do it, tbqh.
Evan Gray
>Do you think the BiH can survive the next 20 years? How are things looking over there right now?
Visited this Jan this year, can't say what the general state of things is, just what my impressions were.
Cost of living is pretty fucked, especially in the rural areas, supermarket prices are similar to Aus which is absurd given the average income. Also hear alot of young serbs there get educated in serbia and try live there or in other parts of europe/the west.
Many areas can't be developed due to nobody knowing who owns the land from when the war kicked off. Still alot of landmines as well.
Mosques and Orthodox Churches everywhere like flags.
Alot of money is invested from Saudi Arabia for the Muslims and Russia for the serbs.
Interesting note is that none of the license plates are marked with region or city just to stop vandalism.
Levi Bailey
I'm from Podgorica and those ustashas who joined partisans were usually forcibly recruited and then just switched when they had the chance whichever army comes to your village, you go with them or you get shot, that's how it often was and true about German expulsion/genocide, but I guess no one cared after war though unlike Polish and Czech Germans, Yugoslav Germans weren't so enthusiastic about Hitler, so in the end they were forcibly recruited
Jordan Brooks
don't forget my main man
Fikret Abdić, an awful corrupt business fucker who ran a Bosniak city-state/cult that allied with the Serbs
Brandon Robinson
>Muslims in the region between Serbia and Montenegro
Im not surprised. The 'non cosmopolitan' areas have the highest rate of secular strife. They dont benefit from the economic improvement or influx of ICT. I interviewed a former soldier who said, in short, "on monday we killed each other....on tuesday we bought from each other at the market." Open up the markets and you will see change, I think, I hope. Those left out have a grievance. I hope that isnt selling short the real situations of those in the area. I dont mean to call them dumb or hicks.
Jonathan Davis
>ached isolation because they presented themselves as defenders of the west against Islam. Croatia, basically, said these are good catholics that can be brought back into the fold. I think they could be muslim and still be western because they have that western experience historically. Very tricky and a perfect case study for how to fix Islam. >IMO, pump them full of levis jeans and MTV. They want to drink and fuck more than blow themselves
True, muslims in Bosnia were bro tier but Saudi influence and bad economy is turning them more radical
Wyatt Turner
yep, that was the most bizzare thing about Bosnia in 90's, and there were plenty (like Croats and Muslims paying Serbs for artillery support in their conflict) also Serbs aided Croats in Bosnia while Serbs and Croats in Croatia were in open conflict
Jordan Cooper
nice thread, bump
Mason Moore
>Why is Radovan Karadzic a 'war criminal'?
He isn't, the cucked Germans framed it that way because he killed some people invading his country.