I admire Tolkien greatly. His books had enormous influence on me...

>I admire Tolkien greatly. His books had enormous influence on me. And the trope that he sort of established—the idea of the Dark Lord and his Evil Minions—in the hands of lesser writers over the years and decades has not served the genre well. It has been beaten to death. The battle of good and evil is a great subject for any book and certainly for a fantasy book, but I think ultimately the battle between good and evil is weighed within the individual human heart and not necessarily between an army of people dressed in white and an army of people dressed in black. When I look at the world, I see that most real living breathing human beings are grey.

Other urls found in this thread:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien's_legendarium
nationalgeographic.com/ngbeyond/rings/myth.html
digitalcommons.hollins.edu/ughonors/1/
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

>muh relativism

I wonder who could be behind this idea

"Ah, ha ha, *munch, munch* ol' J.R.R., didn't, ah, see you come in! -burp- No please, please, [smack] sit down, sit down, there' something we, (pant) need to talk about. *farts* Heavens excuse me, oh ho! Well getting down to 'brass tacks' - or brass tax, I might say SNORT! - yes, well I was sitting, counting the money coming in from, slurp, my show - terribly taxing ah yes? - when the thought occurred me, watching that money from my award-winning show... [belch] from my, (siiippp) award, award, awar... sorry, I lost my breath, award-winning books, that I [chews] that I can't seem to recall you mentioning [more chewing] anything about Gondor's *blows nose* taxation policy. Surely I must have -releases one long wet smelly fart - missed it while glancing through the pages (cough). You did [scratches ballsack] say something about it, right? Sales tax? (sweats) Value-added tax? *licks lips* Don't just sta - oh my my heart - stand there my man, out with it! Surely the, the thought has crossed your mind?! -chuckles until accidental urination-"

((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))

So he doesnt like Star Wars?
B-but space opera

lotr is barely above Harry potter in terms of quality of writing.

You can think anything of that guy, but he sure knows how to create a great, intricate story. Game of Thrones is one of the most developed fantasy books of the century.

He's also said some people are good to the point of almost being all white and some are bad to the point of being almost all black. There is definitely good and evil in his books. It's not just internal within characters but also between characters. The Mountain and Robb Stark aren't just two greys fighting. One is clearly bad and the other is clearly good. But they're still good and bad in a way that's human.

The moral ambiguity he gives every character is a pretty convenient excuse for lousy writing and covering of plot holes. "Did I just write myself into a corner? I know, I'll have the character do something completely against their nature to get out of it! Everything is shades of grey!!!!"

You retards! GoT clearly subverted the trope by having the good guys in black (Night Watch) and the bad guys in white (White Walkers). It's ironic, brilliantly executed, and incredibly complex and smart.

>"Did I just write myself into a corner? I know, I'll have the character do something completely against their nature to get out of it! Everything is shades of grey!!!!"
When did that ever happen?

> I admire Tolkien greatly but ultimately he finished the story he wanted to tell. The real world isn't like that, you get distracted, put things off, change what you were going to do two thirds into doing it, get stuck so you work on other projects no one cares about, repeatedly break promises, then die.

Examples.

Tolkien is to creative literary genius what Martin is to hack pulp idiocy. They both so far surpass anyone else in their field that they will be remembered 1,000 years from now as a kind of yin and yang of fantasy, a Manichaen duality of speculative letters. For every sublime, luminous beauty that Tolkien has gifted the world, Martin has cursed us with a tedious, banal ugliness. It is unfair to compare the two directly on any one point, because Martin is in every way the anti-Tolkien, patently sterile, parasitical, and inferior, but so much so that he becomes a monument in his own right, and counterbalances Tolkien. Could one exist without the other? Tolkien obviously could. But it is only by the contrast that Martin offers that we can truly appreciate the full depths and heights of Tolkien. Our understanding of Tolkien would be incomplete if Martin had never set pen to page. It is through only the abject failure and futility of Martin that we can approach an apprehension of the true scope and scale of Tolkien's hitherto inconceivable greatness. Perhaps this is what Tolkien had in mind when he wrote about the Music of the Ainur. If Tolkien is a subcreator in the image of Eru, truly Martin is like unto Melkor. It is only reflected in the awfulness of the one that we can fully see the goodness of the other.

the only thing that elevates Tolkien is the fact that he was a linguistic expert and could create intricate languages
His writing is otherwise genre fiction

his writing is mythological not "genre fiction" holy shit

lol dumbass

>he thinks Tolkien was done with Middle-Earth when he died
Confirmed for not knowing what he's talking about

kek

you are talking out of your ass and never read a single book of his.

>"I admire Tolkien greatly. His books had enormous influence on me."
why do retards always interpret this as an attack on Tolkien? All he ever sid was that Tolkien didn't write about realistic people, but wrote a mythology. Which is exactly what Tolkien intended. And it is undeniable that Tolkien created characters with black and white morals.

his one complaint is that Tolkien created tropes a lot of people picked up and ran with, while keeping is shallow and not nearly as interesting as Tolkien.

Fantasy should be more like real life.

Reading this made me feel gross

>they have a cave toll

Kek

you just pulled that out of your ass didnt you

>all the brainlets itt shitting on him while being uncapable of giving a rebuttal
lmao

heh heh

>the idea of the Dark Lord and his Evil Minions
for example the Night King and his wights?

If I take one more step, I am no longer covered by my health insurance for injuries that may occur as a result of workplace accidents, housefires, or car crashes.

That's perfectly reasonable.

Genuinely can't think of an example of this in the books. Maybe Tyrion killing Shae?

>I didn't think it would end this way.
>End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Taxation is just another path, one that we all must take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass, and then you see it.
>What? Gandalf? See what?
>Paved roads, and beyond, a far maintained infrastructure under a swift bureaucracy.
>Well, that isn't so bad.
>No. No, it isn't.

>Maybe Tyrion killing Shae?
The bitch deserved that. She sold him out.

A better example would be Theon betraying Robb. I never felt convinced that Theon was willing to go that far.

Why didn't they just use TurboTax?

>I never felt convinced that Theon was willing to go that far.

I think it was at least partially due to fear and resignation. If he went back to Robb to tell him what happened, Robb would never trust him again and Baelon would disinherit in immediately. No matter what Theon did, the Greyjoys were going to attack the Starks, and Theon would lose Robb's trust forever. Combine that with desperation for his father's approval and resentment against the Starks and it makes a lot of sense, at least in the books. In the show it felt like it was a much more jarring, spur of the moment decision.

>. I never felt convinced that Theon was willing to go that far.
What is "that far" ? He didn't kill anyone. He just lead the attack on Winterfell. Then he got fucked over.

So what is "that far" to you? The fact he sided with his father and sister over his kidnapers? Nigger, please.

He killed two farmer boys and flayed them and told the entire world it was the Stark brothers.

one for my grrm hate folder.

most overdeveloped, maybe. about half of the characters, countries and plotlines are just worthless clutter and set-dressing at best.

Needs a (Dodges draft)

he clearly finished telling the story of lord of the rings. the other stuff is peripheral.

>muh beauty
kys

>I think ultimately the battle between good and evil is weighed within the individual human heart and not necessarily between an army of people dressed in white and an army of people dressed in black
He literally has an evil army of the the undead being led by a thousand year old "dark lord"

there's nothing ridiculous about what GRRM said about JRRT though. at least not outside of the hypebole of JRRT fanbois.

yeah but we don't know yet if it plays out in a cliched manner. what if the night king isnt just evil but pursues some specific plan for reason we dont udnerstand yet?

>his kidnapers
Yeah he sure felt wronged about that, being raised like a son and being allowed to go hunting, train, receive a noble education and fuck whores whenever he wanted.

He's a hypocrite.

>muh tax policy
>doesn't have a single tax policy in his books

hmmm

Tolkien started what became the Silmarillion in 1911, well before either Hobbit or Rings.

>point ------>
>(your head)
GRRM used tax policy as an example for the mundane aspects of governing a realm which played no significant part in JRRT's works. aspects which inevitably drag any ruler into an ugly side of life, as grey area. that doesn't mean LOTR or Hobbit were bad - the fact that they ignore these aspects just adds to their fairy tale-like atmosphere.

GRRM's success lies exactly in highlighting these other aspects of medieval fantasy, something the generations of authors who blindly followed JRRT did neglect.

it also doesnt mean that one is superior to the other (that is a matter of taste) but both complement each other within the narrative space of the genre.

Other than it's retarded and pointless.

>that Theon was willing to go that far.
Did you read the books? Theon clearly has many many reservations about what he's done but keeps going due to a sense of familial obligation and being goaded by others, plus he's 18 at the start of the story, are you going to tell me no 18 year old has ever done dumb shit they later regret

You can tell the people who post this quote haven't read anything after required reading in high school, even the most basic of genre fiction. This can be evident from the complete lack of reading comprehension in the intention of the quote, and the fixation on taxation (which was a throwaway example).

Tolkien is mythology, ASOIAF is high fantasy or sword and sorcery.

Referring to the Night King, likely Martin gas something planned like Wheel of Time. The Dark One was just Voldemort tier villian, but towards the end and after meeting his followers the Foresaken, finds out there is more nuance to hum. The Wheel of Time is a constant cycle of destruction, rebuilding, and reincarnation, with characters appearing again and again throughout time stuck in the same kind of role. The Dark One's motivation is to
>break the wheel
To end inescapable fate

Not it isn't. GRRM is responding to people trying to compare his series to LOTR. To these people he is explaining that Tolkien was a massive influence on him, but their series are fundamentally different in key things like characterization. Not that his is better, it is just in a different genre.

>Responding to retards on twitter
Retarded
>Trying to explain things to retards on twitter
Pointless

>Tolkien is mythology
lmao

Read some mythology and read Tolkien. Then pick up something like Wheel of Time or Malazan Book of the Fallen. There are fundamental differences at the core of these stories. Mythology is what he wrote.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien's_legendarium
nationalgeographic.com/ngbeyond/rings/myth.html

tolkien is even worse than grrm. very boring to read and every chapter has at least 3 faggy songs. the only people who defend him are geeky obsessive tolkientards that haven't read many books.

The only remarkable part of Tolkien mythos are his fictional languages.
The rest of it is derivative schlock from works of fiction and mythologies that came before him.

Star Wars isn't a space opera
Even the old one is a shitty family fantasy while kino like THX 1138 was coming out

Where did I say I adore Tolkien? I don't really enjoy reading his works more than once. But the narrative structure and characterizations makes his materials mythology, that is the point I'm making

>THX 1138
Which I actually just realized was directed by George Lucas. He dropped the fucking ball with Star Wars imo. Great mythology, great universe, sub-par movies

>genre fiction
Someone has just found /lit/ and repeats their memes in a desperate atempt to appear sophisticated and well-read.

>Muh grey morality
>Created both Ramsay Bolton and Joeffry Baratheon.
Fat hack.

>genre fiction is a /lit/ meme
t. brainlet

>genre fiction
>/lit/ meme

Are you trolling or just retarded

>GRRM's success lies exactly in highlighting these other aspects of medieval fantasy
GRRM success is in mindless parroting Victorian era stereotypes about medieval Europe and getting endlessly praised for it. Nothing about GRRM's portrayal of governing is anythig close to reality.

Funny he says this as the TV show he guided gradually transforms into a drama with simplified morals and a big bad evil who has virtually no good side at all.

people don't watch fiction for realism. that's why star wars is popular and hard sci-fi is not. grrm has done well.

Wonderful.

>dude grrm is showing the grey mundane side of medieval life!
>no he isn't, he's just perpetuating tired myths
>dude who cares MUH DRAGONS
Every single time with you fucks. Last post I waste on you.

"No!"

>moral ambiguity in a book is Jewish tricks
please kill yourself, even Hitler would have said you're a retard

nice misquoting. fantasy is a romanticized version of medieval life/myths and while you're calling these myths tired a new generation of readers/viewers disagrees. they're fascinated by these myths. and a few decades down the way a new generation will rediscover those tired myths again (and again) when another author will pick up on them and make them his own.

and i bet there will be people like you standing on the sidelines staring in disbelief. it will not matter.

Not really tho. I know a couple of people working a the MA departement and they literally all love the books because it captures better than most fiction how pre-modern societies work.

Is the Night King even in the books?

do people actually think the Game of Thrones books are good? Cause everyone circlejerks the books too but I don't want to read them

kekkles

the first three are fine. goes to shit after that

this fat faggot will never be on Tolkien's level.

muh moral grey ambiguity. Kys you fat bastard.

>I was from early days grieved by the poverty of my own beloved country: it had no stories of its own … Do not laugh! But once upon a time (my crest has long since fallen) I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story… which I could dedicate simply to: to England; to my country.

This is literally what mythology is.
digitalcommons.hollins.edu/ughonors/1/

nope
The Night's King is but he is very different.

I know. And literally zero tits or the word cunt!

Yes but he's an old story of a nights watch lord commander who fucked a white walker, the show night king is not the same person.

>being in a country so devoid of culture you have to take mythos from other European countries and proclaim them as your country

That's what I thought. I wouldn't be surprised if the books ended up not at all turning into a "all the remaining popular characters band together to fight the Others and their evil Night King!" like the show has become. Other than one fight several books ago they haven't even done anything. The wildlings didn't get attacked and they were north of the wall for a shitload of time.

Are you an American?

He is not wrong

kek

Spanish, actually.
Don't even get me started on those filthy American mongrels.

i see someone didn't siesta today

Sounds like someone is avoiding to acknowledge the existence of Feanor and his children in Alda's universe

FUCK YES GOT-LOST VERTICALS LETS DO THIS MOTHER FUCKERS

Blow it out your ass

Tywin fucking Shae? Where dafug did that came from?

>people don't understand the simplistic character that Shae is
lmao

>his story boils down to young and beautiful 'chosen ones' fighting an evil army with no humanity

Hmm

>Mongrels

Look who's talking Jose

>the tv show is the same as the books
People need to shut the fuck up about things they don't know

>defined the entire genre
>His writing is genre fiction

I don't think Tolkien, a veteran fighter such as him, could dodgy a fart that large tbhfamalam whoa Black Betty famalam, whoa Black Betty famalam.

The brothel tax was a fairly big part of book 2. But in general there is way more talk of finance and policy in GoT and if you dont think so you really haven't read them.