Why are Franco-Belgian comics so much better than American comics?

Why are Franco-Belgian comics so much better than American comics?

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>much better
>implying comics aren't about slashfiction and fapping to r34 fanart
Look at this yuropoor and laugh

Lots pre-selection happens for us non-french speakers, usually we don't even get to see the crap that's being published. Plus most of the stuff that's actually successful is usually kinda comfortably mediocre rather than daring or challenging.

Also US comics are pretty good once you shop around outside of capeshit and folks generally don't sufficiently appreciate their unique cultural approach to esoteric motives and themes.

Good writers
Good artists
An intelligent public
A strong industry
Respect and admiration for and pride in the medium as well as creator rights

>garbage doesn't get translated
Alternatively
>implying [medieval european fantasy #89] is good

>not liking Thorgal

Capefag, right?

A lineage of cartooning history, plus new blood that take risks.
BIG album books with gorgeous art.
Casual nudity.

cause they aren't so tied to capeshit and they let their imaginations run wild. Plus, the writers just seem generally more literate. There is a reason european writers came and saved capeshit

Only Brits, user.

because you keep consuming the shitty mass produced american comics instead of actually looking around for the good stuff.

Plus, A french will take 20 years to release 14 volumes and probably think he rushed through it. Franco-belgians seem to impose higher standards on themselves as artists. Or may be, like said we don't get to see the garbage.

We're privileged in that we see the alot of the top tier stuff and very little of the shills, the crap, or the mediocre.

There's some allure to the way euro comics don't have as severe of a Comics Code/Censorship legacy (if any; I have no idea what's allowed and not allowed in Euro comics) so you see stuff with a cartoony style breach topics that would seem forbidden over here: things as small as alcohol/tobacco use or child-death-- hell, you can find Mickey Mouse detective comics where he gets into bar fights. Over on this side of the Atlantic, most comics with more 'serious' content almost have--until recent times with the advent of the internet-- stick to more realistic or noir-ish aesthetics.

But I've also noticed from alot of the Sup Forums storytimes that there's a bit more individualism in terms of artistic style. Thorgal looks entirely different from Asterix, and Asterix looks entirely different from Cyber Six. There are, admittedly a slew of 'cartoony' style comics that look like they were Peyo and or Uderzo inspired, but that comes in degrees rather than seem uniform. And you put these cartoony ones next to all the medieval fantasy comics or the adventure/serious minded comics and there's no homogenized feeling to it, whereas american comics have a huge portion of the medium be *exclusively* super hero and super hero related focused. Few exceptions, like Bone, stand-out manga inspired work, or Groo (which is basically a euro comic in terms of easthetic) or Usagi Yojimbo or the indie scene as a whole exist in comparison to the sheer scale of cape-works.

So overall, I think it comes down to expectations being fewer, and having less of an unbalanced market that makes euro comics look more interesting to explore, if anything else.

But yeah, seriously, we're also not privy to whatever garbage work is around because no one's pushing that on us...

Now I got an excuse to post this page of Franka that I saved.
Doesn't it look neat?

>whereas american comics have a huge portion of the medium be *exclusively* super hero and super hero related focused

don't forget that each companies has house styles and if you stray too far from them people will not buy your comics (ie: Genndy's Cage bombed hard)

I've always say that there's two industries in the USA: The cape industry and the actual comics industry. The former pulls 100k buys regurlarly while the latter will barely reach 20k and call it a great success. The difference between big two capes and everyone else is ridiculous.

They aren't.

Franka looks really wierd these days.

Because they aren't made-for-hire books where the authors have to shit out 20 pages in a month (or sometimes less).

A typical euro comic is 48 pages, takes a year to do on average, is entirely creator owned, and they are printed on twice as big paper size as American ones. And they are hardcover.

Simply put a LOT more effort goes into them.

Someone should translate this series

>An intelligent public
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA lol? in France most people read mangas and don't care about their own comics, also it's actually full of shitty comics but nobody never talk about them, you only know the best ones like Asterix.

I think that's ...kinda/slowly going away. It's sadly limited to mostly alternate covers/Marvel keeps hiring Scottie Young to do anything, but Kamala Khan's book has gone through several artists with varying styles at the least. it's a step...

It's not just that Cape comics dominate the US market. America's only *now* getting back into having any sort of diversity in styles. They *used* to have it by the truckloads back in the days of Newspaper strips, but the syndicates fucked that up by the 70s and even before that comic *books* of the gold and silver ages all look sickly homogenized until Ditko and Kirby came along. But even that's just a revolution of the giant all encompassing cape-industry.

Once the internet came around, we started getting more diverse styles and works, but even that is a small pond in comparison.

Nice autism, americanon.

France and Belgium both make for the 2nd most comic-crazy part of the world (with Japan being #1). Superhero comics are a small niche compared to the market in Europe. Fucking Donald duck comics sell 4 times more in Europe than Superhero comics do in the US. Just think about that for a second, how crazy is that.

French comics are sold in bookstores though; American comics are limited to comics book shops.

That alone makes a huge difference in perception. One is viewed as an art form medium suitable for everybodies consumption, while the other is looked at as an industry entirely geared towards loser geeks.

>Donald duck comics sell 4 times more in Europe than Superhero comics do in the US.

When Don Rosa made his Duck family tree, it made it into national news in Italy.

What was the last comic related stuff that made it into international news in America? Superman's death and return?

i'm not american, i'm french and i know what i am talking about, stop your transantlantic fantasies.

most of "popular comics" are actually childish comics strips compilation on albums selled on super markets, the "adult comics" are mostly terrible art porn humor, also most of good "franco-belgians" comics are actually belgians only, they put "Franco" only because of Asterix.

i can't understand this fascination, a lot of supposed "mature or dark comics" are just dadrock x generation comics with sometimes some north african female with a mary-sue name.

pic related is considered "Tumblr the comic"

>American comics are limited to comic book shops
no they aren't yuropoor

>i'm french
Prove it. And if you are, I'm afraid you don't represent the whole French public.

A lot of euro comics are softcover.
Thorgal is sold in both hard and softcover versions.

Yes, you have digital releases, and Archie is released in in magazine stands.

I can go to Barnes & Noble and pick up my comics too fag, you don't know shit.

> i'm french and i know what i am talking about,

Prove it, what is the standard amount of pages in a typical french hard cover album. This is a rigid requirement that publishers demand from all foreign comics as well if they are to be published in french.

America started to get big art variety wise in the 90s thanks to DC's Vertigo and the onset of digital art. But even then, you only had: Big Two, Vertigo, 90s Image (and the other dozen cape comics clones that all looked the same sans colouring techniques), and the black & white comix scene that was getting awfully static since their 70s golden age.

Nowadays things seem to point to that the general comic industry is getting more attention, from Image's more alternative comics to the recent interest I've seen in Sup Forums and other places have in Fantagraphic's, which is probably the most varied american publisher going on right now.

But it all remains a question of whether this is genuine growth or just a fad. Americans hate buying alternative stuff, hell Fantagraphics always gets shat on as hipster trash whenever it gets mentioned. There's this pervasive mentality that only capes / big two comics are of any worth. Like Dorkin's shitty comic once said "You know what alternative comics are alternative to? Making money!"

Golden Age had a degree of variety - remember the funny animal genre. But yes, anything that was not a cartoon had primarily realistic art.

Yeah, passion projects seem to be the main driving force in french comics.

what are comic sales numbers in Italy?

>Why

Because you're an opinionated elitist that enjoys the act of seeming superior when you shit on someone else's opinion.

>what are comic sales numbers in Italy?

Tex Willer apparently outsells Batman in absolute numbers.

Well pic related is my proof bande de crétins.

>I'm afraid you don't represent the whole French public.
How do you fucking know about the french public not even living in France? most of all read mangas and capeshits.

>Prove it, what is the standard amount of pages in a typical french hard cover album. This is a rigid requirement that publishers demand from all foreign comics as well if they are to be published in french.
the standards are something like 44 or 48 pages, and stop that meme with MUH TALENT INDUSTRY, this industry is full of talentless people who publish shitty comics.

I repeat, the most popular are often the best ones.

nice source

200k per month?

got told before that the italian industry regularly outsells the US, but never got any number.

>the standards are something like 44 or 48 pages

Correct. This guy is french.

They're not monthlies. That helps.

>Franka
>In French

Gallic usurper, have you no shame?

Thanks. Now prove those comics are yours, si vous plait.

No he's not. He's hating on French comics.

The proper spelling is "See voo play", buddy.

...How does that suggest he (or she) is not French?

>Tintin in the Congo
Didn't Herge regret writing that book?

The French are chauvinistic and don't speak English. This guy is speaking English and shitting on the French. So, American.

He was kinda shite up past Tintin in America. That's when he started defining the standards of Franco-Belgian adventure comics.

You're French late?

That's dumb. You're dumb.

Are YOU American?

No, I'm European. And I have read a ton of good eurocomics. Maybe I know how to choose my reads and you don't?

>American comics are limited to comics book shops

Please, just stop talking.

Jesus, thank you--let's get back to the actual discussion.

I am a bit worried that the current growth of non-cape works will be a fad, sort of like how the 80s in America had a bit of a resurgence in alternative, non-cape comics only to dive head first into the EXTREME 90s after making some progress. But even then, one of the big breakouts of the 80s (if not biggest one) was TMNT and that has its roots in parody of stuff found in cape work, and the turtles are arguable alt-capes in a way, but still capes.

I don't want cape comics to go away, and not just because you still always get a few diamonds in the rough or seminal game changers that are legitimately good, but at the same time, if the bubble bursts on Super Hero films and/or they loose ground, we may at least start getting some balance and allow other genres to shine.

But really, it will depend on entirely what sells, and what gets mainstream notice. As long as the industry doesn't completely die (fat chance, even a decade from now) we'll at least always be able to find good stuff amid the rest.

The guy is right though, France may not have as much capeshit, but it sure does have a lot of shit, just look at all the trash Soleil puts out.

And let's take a look at top sellers. This is from last month's dBD magazine, from a survey by GFK of 2,300 sales locations of differing types all over France and online, then extrapolated to estimate sales totals in the entire sector. Not a perfect methodology, but it is useful.

Of the top 15, 2-4 are manga, 8 more are the latest in series with at least 10 volumes, 1 is Minions, 1 is those raving rabids things. It's not super-indie shit that's selling, it's books for kids and things that have been running for decades.

Look at the best-sellers of 2015, same deal:
youscribe.com/catalogue/tous/ressources-professionnelles/analyses-et-etudes-sectorielles/marche-de-la-bande-dessinee-france-2015-gfk-2692469

On every of these threads I hear America produces comics just as good as franco-belgian ones and you just have to search for them, but people almost never give any examples

Hellboy, Saga, The Goon, Atomic Robo, Bone,

>Maybe I know how to choose my reads and you don't?

A regrettable possibility. My taste is eclectic but far from refined.

>Soleil publishes trash
>Americans love it
Draw your own conclusions, people.

my experience on Sup Forums tells me he's referring to stereotypical french nationalism where everything the idea of france not being the world's cultural capital is unthinkable.

I keep reading about Soleil being shit all the time. What's the deal?

most of those are now comfortably lumped together in fantagraphics.

>Saga
>Atomic Robo
Vive la France.

no liberals trying to turn it into a propaganda tool for sjw causes

instead the creators are actually interested in telling a fun and great story with amazing art

>it's books for kids and things that have been running for decades.

Yes, that's how it is globally.

Artesia and Forming are pretty solid. Kane is really good as well. On the trashy side, Prison Pit had a good run for about five or six issues. Then there's nonwhite America, which has been making a lot of solid contributions to comics at large, with stuff like Dago, Cybersix, that crazy mexican comics about dudes eating the flesh of angels in order to turn into non-euclidian jaguar gods and fight the CIA Black Choppers and The Ethernauts.

>implying there aren't leftist eurocomics
Go back to Iowa, redneck.

>Hating on Atmomic Motherfucking Robo.

I´m German but what ever makes you feel like you are right lefty

>liking BPRD but more boring and with worse art

Europe is even further left than the US you idiot.

>I keep reading about Soleil being shit all the time. What's the deal?
They seemed to have cornered the teenager-market with fantasy- and scifi-tittie series pretty well. They put out a lot of entertaining, but uninspiring stuff.

>I´m German
Of course...

BPRD and Atomic Robo are two entirely different beasts. Atomic Robo is a lot more humor based for one.

>entertaining, but uninspiring
That explains why they export it to USA.

>humor
It fails at it too.

...

The French make comics about African middle- and underclass problems, featuring black women main characters.

You really can't get any more jewishcommiebastard who faps to white genocide without actually killing little blonde girls to get your jollies off than that.

Poor Aryan; the French don't do comics about you? Bad people.

no it isn´t
feminism has like zero respect in the public sphere

>Yes, that's how it is globally.

That's what I'm saying, the Francophone market isn't some utopia that only puts out amazing books because readers are all highbrow geniuses, it's just the same as the US market, but bigger. There's good stuff and there's terrible stuff. Anyone who pretends any different is kidding themselves, and this is coming from someone who really likes BDs.

Eh, it's half tongue-in-cheek, they do a lot of lowest common denominator heroic fantasy and other genre fiction that I just don't like, like Lanfeust, Blondes, Wunderwaffen, etc. But they also do good stuff, like Satanie, Ogres-Dieux, Universal War One.

>this is coming from someone who really likes BDs
Again, prove it.

>Sweden.

Haha, tell me about the German comics industry, mein Freund.

Hard mode: no Ralf Konig.

I haven't really noticed the French putting ethnicities out of place in their comics. Remember that Paris and the other big cities are multiculti fests.

well, afaik it's not like teenagers had much of a market in comics before soleil.

Is the french market bigger than the US? Though it was smaller.

Wait, they did Universal War? Isn't that THE sci fi BD?

I read one german porn comic that was pretty fun.

I don't really know how I can prove my tastes, and I'm not that other user with the books. I buy everything I can that comes out in English, even despite the shit format. I have a subscription to a few French magazines about BDs which I pay through the nose for shipping for. I spend my free time translating Eurocomics. But I suppose I'm just some DC fan trolling right user?

In any case, it doesn't really make a difference to my point. I posted market data showing what sells, it isn't highbrow indie books, deal with it, fellow ouiaboo.

Werner is pretty cool
it´s about German Motorbike gangs / Gearheads
even got several animated movies

It used to, but once Vertigo was neutered and Image became a seasonal tv pitch folder for big two writers, there really isn't much to talk about.

nigger pls

In every one of these threads I keep seeing people insist Franco-Belgian comics are masterpieces and the ones I've checked out are shit. Now what?

>I suppose I'm just some DC fan trolling
Company wars? American confirmed.

>But I've also noticed from alot of the Sup Forums storytimes that there's a bit more individualism in terms of artistic style. Thorgal looks entirely different from Asterix, and Asterix looks entirely different from Cyber Six. There are, admittedly a slew of 'cartoony' style comics that look like they were Peyo and or Uderzo inspired, but that comes in degrees rather than seem uniform. And you put these cartoony ones next to all the medieval fantasy comics or the adventure/serious minded comics and there's no homogenized feeling to it, whereas american comics have a huge portion of the medium be *exclusively* super hero and super hero related focused.

I think this is the reason why I'll always prefer European comics over American comics. Storywise, there might not be that much of a difference. I think there's too many superhero stories in the USA, but if you look for it (outside of Marvel/DC) I believe you'll find enough awesome stories. But the USA has way more realistic art (not just in the superhero comics) and I also love non-realistic art.

Another Dutch artist and a great example of amazing European comic art is the work of Hanco Kolk. Influenced by artists like Picasso.

Stop using Sup Forums if you look for good books, will you?

...

Earlier work

Hard to find outside the Netherlands and Belgium though. I think one book's been translated to English, and two to French.

It reminds me a bit of some 1980s books. I like it.

>Is the french market bigger than the US? Though it was smaller.

Yeah sorry, I mean per capita. According to this: idboox.com/etudes/angouleme-2016-le-marche-de-la-bande-dessinee-en-forte-croissance/

Yearly sales figures in 2015 were 459 million euros, average exchange rate was around 1.02 so about $467.4m.

Estimate of US total sales comichron.com/yearlycomicssales.html

$1030m. So per capita:

US: $3.20
France: $7.27

>Hanco Kolk

I know.

How about this guy?

lol

>ad hominems

Top tier argument

Thanks, Sosich.
>"American" is an insult
French as fuck.

An ad hominem is not necessarily an insult, it is merely an attack on the arguer instead of the argument.

France has problems of its own in the comic industry, the strict required number of pages mentioned above being one of the signs of some problems with publishers and how conservative they are.

But comics and animation overall are still doing much better there than in the US. It is still part of the mainstream whereas in the US comics havent been mainstream for a very long time.

Speaking of French comics, can Americans use French eBay? I can't read French Though I can read Spanish which is pretty much the same :^) but there are plenty of wordless french comics I like, like Game Over.

>ebay
Fuck, I meant Amazon, sorry.

I didn't doubt it.

Dirkjan is great, I actually think Dirkjan and Gilles de Geus are the two best Dutch comics.