So; """"old fags""""...

So; """"old fags"""", level with me here: Was Marvel at a better place creatively prior to the Iron Man movie release and the Disney Merger the fallowing year? To my knowledge Bendis was still shitty out events at that time so I am assuming things were still pretty bad

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Heroic Age era was pretty mediocre.

Marvel Now was decent.

Some user said it before but I'll just reiterate using my own words.

Marvel was already on the downslope with Bendis at the helm of Avengers. First with Disassembled, then with what came next. Civil War and One More Day were all signs of what the future would bring. This was all before the Disney buyout.

Things were already going bad, but Disney just made them worse. With the mainstream media attention of the movies, came the need to pander to movie casuals, and the uprising of "progressive" journalists and critics.

>Newfags will come ITT and start shitposting about the diversity and SJW boogeyman

Just watch.

Maybe you should actually contribute to discussion rather than shitpost yourself.

triggered shitposters detected

Marvel, as a company, has always been shit. The Fantastic Four were a direct order from the top to rip off The Justice League. Secret Wars was literally made to beat CoIE to the company wide punch, and was a forced toy commercial to boot. The only reason they ever had any great comics was because talent like Kirby, Ditko, Gerber, Starlin etc. were able to utilize unpopular characters while the editors werent looking.
Read Marvel Comics: The Untold Story. Its a great read and really illuminates just how shit Marvel has been, and how fucking vain Stan Lee is.

No, Bendis Avengers, Fraction X-Men, Waypool blowing up there was the handful of strange offbeat things like Herc or the cosmic stuff but it wasn't great overall

triggered shitposter detected

You can't even be bothered to go back a decade and read some comics? The 00's are a mixed bag, just like every other fucking decade.

The more I look at it, Marvel tries to paint itself as a innovator with the house of ideas and such. But it purely imitates.

When you look at the silver-age it was nothing more than copying what was popular at the time, which was sci-fi and the atomic age. When you look at the 70s it becomes more apperant. You have iron fist and shang-chi who were created in response to Kung fu movies and Bruce lee. Luke cage is a blacksploitation character, and the dazzler was disco(even though disco had died by the time dazzler came out). And when you look at current age Marvel they are doing it again, attempting to imitate the diversity trends.

Can't this board go one hour without someone making another anti-Marvel thread?

I don't think OP is going for anti-marvel. He seems to want decent discussion, enough to properly understand how Marvel has been in the recent past. I have to respect that.

No, it's a meme now. People are not exaggerating when they say TORtanic ruined this site. Everything is some gigantic EBIN FAIL XD raid now.

why are you so asspained about people hating Marvel? Why not try to illuminate some of the good they did? Like how they only included creator royalties after DC did it, and refused to actually call them royalties because that legally implies the creator owns the work he made and they dont want to get sued. Or like how Lee wasted a bunch of company money throwing a concert/show for himself to promote the Stan Lee character (granted he was spurred to do so by a hollywood promoter, but still). Or how their own attempt to do creator owned works (Epic) failed horribly.

Because we can't fucking discuss comics anymore without it turning into console war shit. And the heavy-handed pro-DC bias lately is really getting out of hand. DC can do no wrong at this point and everything that Marvel does is a catastrophe.

But yeah I really should get that Untold Stories book

there is plenty of comic discussion, and if you want more start a thread about it like I do. Most of the time when I want to talk about A Contract With God or Claremont X-Men I get a pretty good response. This thread is specifically about Marvel the company, and I see no problem pointing out all the shit Marvel has done because they have always been a shitty company. Since day fucking one. And when they are constantly screwing the comic creators I admire, denying them their art, their creator status, and their royalties, then I feel like its justified shitting on them.


DC has done shit in the past, dont get me wrong, but at least they are willing to change and a tone for it. They started the trend of giving royalties to creators. When Levitz was in charge, he gave money to comic creators whose work was used in movies. For example, Len Wein, creator of Wolverine and the Batman character Lucious Fox, once said that while he barely made any money from the Wolverine movies, he got so much money from The Dark Knight Returns that he was able to get a new house (and that was just from creating a supporting character).


Source: cbr.com/quote-of-the-day-lucius-fox-bought-my-new-house/


I'm pretty sure DC has kept this policy in place, albeit to a much lesser extent then they did under Levitz. They also were willing to finally give Finger credit for Batman, while Marvel hasnt dont shit in terms of giving cheated creators credit for anything. Hell, Stan Lee is getting cameos in fucking Captain America movies, a character created by Kirby and Simon when Lee was just an intern!


The whole Stan Lee name was created by Lee was too embarrassed by comics to associate his real name with them.


Marvel is absolute trash.

>Was Marvel at a better place creatively prior to the Iron Man movie release and the Disney Merger the fallowing year?

Ultimates 3
Ultimatum (this was out in 2009, but was well under way before Disney's buyout of Marvel was announced)
Sins Past
One More Day
Avengers Disassembled

No, I'd say they weren't in a good spot creatively. It was going to be inevitable.

>2009
Holy fuck it feels like it was longer

>The Fantastic Four
Not the Avengers? Because the FF look more like The Challengers of the Unknown than the JL.

Marvel movies were better with Paramount. Phase 1 > Phase 2 & 3
Prove me wrong.
You can't.

That will never stop triggering me.

There was still good coming out at that time though. Hickman's Fantastic Four for example.

Since Jemas left it's been downhill for nuMarvel

Iron Man and Avengers were the only good phase 1 movies. Phase 2 had Guardians of the Galaxy, Winter Soldier, Ant Man and (IMO) Age If Ultron.

its really fucked. Literally a year ago it was the other way around with DC fucking shit up

Not the Avengers at all. Martin Goodman, owner of what would become Marvel comics, literally told Stan Lee to rip off the Justice League after he had a game of golf with the head of DC. Lee and Kirby go together and created the Fantastic Four (they both have different accounts of this meeting and the creation).

And yes, there are plenty of challengers of the unknown ideas in there, but thats because that was also created by Kirby and he liked to refine his ideas across companies.

age of ultron is absolute trash, and I cant stand GoTG upon rewatching

Marvel is so lucky their movies have been decent. Without that, they would be incredibly fucked. And at the same time,you can say he same for DC, good comics, shit movies.

the only thing DC fucked up was with the nu52, they have had an overall good track record as a company.

Its gone periods of good creativity and then back to a downward slope. I reckon after Queasada left And alonso took over Marvel overall kinda lost its creativity.

I mean seriously aside for OMD, JoeQ turned Marvel around after Jemas fucked it over.

Events since Secret Invasion weren't as good I guess but their aftermath was always super fun. Remember how good KidLoki series was after Fear Itself? Or that fun New Mutants/Journey into Mystery crossover?

Hell the first Marvel Now genuinely had a lot of hype. Superior Spidey was praised big time by showing a lot of promise, Waid was on DD and it was amazing, Waid on Hulk was crazy fun as well, Hickmans Avengers was fucking hyped big time, Fraction was doing ScottLangs FF, Aarons God Butcher Thor arc was fantastic, Remender was on Cap and doing uncanny avengers.

They seemed to be going upwards after a tiny decline post-fear itself launches gave us (remember the bitching of how shit aarons hulk was?) and after a shitty AVX event things were looking up.

The backlash basically started after marvels like 2nd or 3rd Marvel Now Relaunch as they tried doing retarded shit. The decline is only recent but I reckon they will pick themselves up again in a year or so.

>shit movies.
>the only thing DC fucked up was with the nu52
Nah.

you're the same faggot from the thread the other day

to answer OP's question

creatively Marvel was trying new things pre-disney

> people bitch about bendis on avengers, but 1) it was selling like fire and 2) he still had the GOAT daredevil run and ult spidey was loved by fans and critics

> based brubaker was killing it on daredevil and cap

> people hated on millar but civil war shaped the universe still today and ultimates was amazing

> annihilation brought the cosmic shit back to life. they got based DnA to be the guys in charge of that whole corner of the universe

> got young and upcoming talent like fraction, remender, aaron, to write for them, along with a fuckton of great artists

> PAD was always good, pak hulk was hype

it's not necessarily disney's fault, it's just that after the studio took off quesada spent more time over on the tv/film side and he is simply a better EiC than alonso. axe is a great editor but not the top boss. people hate quesada for OMD but he's probably marvel's best EiC after stan himself, maybe shooter.

now the movies are huge so disney will want the comics to cater to casuals and other shit for "casual & secondary" fandoms, so all the real comic talent is gone

ironically DC is at the place where marvel was at in 2005-2010 right when the MCU was about to take off, right now. they have tons of talent and are trying some new shit. DC's movies being shit is actually saving the comic side from going full SYNERGY. you're still seeing it a little like we're never going to get a suicide squad comic without harley again.

but you bet your ass if they figure out the DCEU and it is fully successful you're going to get AT&T suits telling WB/DC what to do. suits ruin everything

guy above is a delusional dumb fuck I swear. Do DC fans have memories of a fucking gold fish? Literally a year ago before Rebirth was even a thing they were bitching more about their company than Marvel fags

>ultimates was amazing
Don't forget his X-Men. Hell, it was even good under fucking Bendis. Of course when Vaughn and Kirkman came it all went downhill, but same happened to every Ultimate title.

>Iron Man and Avengers
And First Avenger.
And The Incredible Hulk.
Also, Avengers is shit.

please tell me how else DC fucked up other than the nu52? And I liked DCYou DC because it gave us Omega Men and Prez.

>telling me what I was feeling


marvel drones have reached a new low

>bendis had the GOAT daredevil run
>not Miller

haha oh wow


and i never said they werent good creatively, but as a company they are shit. There is reason why every good writer and artist left Marvel at some point, and most went to DC.

Fraction and Remender both ended up being averagy writers. Fraction's hawkeye is super cringy in retrospect.

i forgot about BKV and krikman too. yeah marvel had an insane stable of talent. they even had gaiman do that eternals mini. mike carey on x-men legacy, of course morrison on x-men as well. based warren ellis doing thunderbolts

hickman almost saved ultimates, shame he had to leave

i like ewing as a CRAZY WILD writer but he is absolutely shitting on ultimate reed's character and it triggers me every fucking time

like the another user said here after quesada left the comic side it definitely declined. and now within the last year it's gotten way worse. they're handing out meme books to meme writers like fucking kate leth or chris sims. sims would NEVER had gotten a job with quesada at the helm. it's all cronyism now

you aren't actually denying anything the guy you replied to said btw.

I don't know man.

I love the shit out of Disassembled and New Avengers - well they really didn't do shit in Bendis run but still has my favorite first arc.

I also loved how a Event was the cataclysm from another event or status quo.

House of M was short but good
Civil War was ... a mess but still a great concept and for me a good ending and gave us Initiative
WWH was consistent but to much one-sided
Secret Invasion should had been way better, same with Dark Reign such a great concept but not really well used

They pander in that period to the crossovers.
Thanks to that I think more people started to read comic-books.

I would say Marvel right now is the same as The Walking Dead just a shitshow for casuals and people with no brain: The writing is shit, the directing is shit and they survive based of shock value

Just because u liked that shit doesnt mean everyone else did you dumb cunt. DCYou despite their good titles bombed because they weren't as fucking interesting.

Also the new 52 is a big fuck up because it lasted 5 fucking years that derailed a lot of their characters before DC wised up with Rebirth. Which started CURRENT YEAR.

If Marvel's bullshit SJW campaign lasts that long then you might have a fucking point.

fraction's iron man was pretty good when it started and loved. him and brubaker's iron fist is still incredible. i hated his x-men stuff but some people liked it so whatever to that

remender's uncanny x-force is beyond incredible though. cap and secret avengers were solid too

Disney don't demand them anything besides the FF and Xmen ban, it is coming from the comic department.

Synergi is Bendis and cia idea.

Wasnt it the other way around before Marvel Now? Waid was a really good DC writer before jumping ship to Marvel. The jump ship included Brubaker and a bunch of other writers that made 2000s Marvel era memorable as well.

All because of that hack Didio fucking shit up with his silver age + edgy wankfest that slowly transformed into the new 52 before Based Johns saved us.

...

but Marvel has always been shit and continually abuses its creators

Didio is the reason we have titles like Flinstones, All Star Western (from nu52) and Omega Men. He likes good comics.

>talent like fraction, remender, aaron
>people bitch about bendis on avengers, but 1) it was selling like fire
>people hated on millar but civil war shaped the universe still today and ultimates was amazing
>DC's movies being shit

Shh, let him go full Outhousers. He'd rather die than admitting Didio can do good things.

he's a surface fag

he read some memes about MUH JACK KIRBY AND DITKO GOT RAPED BY STAN LEE when in reality it's not black & white

it's much more complicated than that. kirby wasn't infallible, he made mistakes and had bad ideas too

a company sees one company doing something successful of course they will imitate. that's business. ferarri didn't invent cars but they certainly have nice ones. it's the same thing. to act like justice league was the greatest thing since sliced bread is a joke. it was DC saying "hmmm all these characters are selling, let's put them in one big book so we can sell more"

wow, bravo, such an amazingly original idea, they looked at baseball and made an all-star team, kek. even then F4 was kirby being unsatisfied at DC fucking up challengers of the unknown and lee recognizing the talent and letting kirby have more control

It is but arguably the early 00's was better for Marvel quality wise compared to late 00's. Even with Chuck Austen on board. And late 00's Marvel was better than now.

This.

>leave muh Stan alone!
Hi The Sheeple! Still assfucked by your bosses and enjoying it?

he also wanted to kill off nightwing during IC, everything shit that happened to cassandra cain, bringing back barry, fucking over kyle/stewart for hal, absolutely shitting on kirby's legacy with the new gods,the shitty outsiders run, and ruining 52 with that awful WW3 bullshit

The pre-Shooter days, when Starlin did drugs before start writing.

>cassandra cain
Stopped reading there.

I was the guy you were replying to, and try actually learning some comic history and read the fucking post. you are the biggest marvel drone ive ever seen, are you going to deny


>DC has done shit in the past, dont get me wrong, but at least they are willing to change and a tone for it. They started the trend of giving royalties to creators. When Levitz was in charge, he gave money to comic creators whose work was used in movies. For example, Len Wein, creator of Wolverine and the Batman character Lucious Fox, once said that while he barely made any money from the Wolverine movies, he got so much money from The Dark Knight Returns that he was able to get a new house (and that was just from creating a supporting character).


Source: cbr.com/quote-of-the-day-lucius-fox-bought-my-new-house/
Marvel is absolute SHIT to its creators

I don't know, i went back and read Hawkeye again a few weeks ago and it still holds up ok. It reads much better as a whole than a s a monthly, i'll say that much.

>LE PIZZA DOGE XD

Hickman's FF started around the time Disney buyout was announced. Before that it was Millar/Hitch which had its moments but kind of mediocre.

Don't forget the implosion of '78.

no one brought up Lee fucking over Kirby but you. It was the marvel company that fucked over kirby, denying him his original art.


Also do you know anything about how Gerber got fucked out of Howard The Duck rights? Or how Shooter would force people to redo entire comics in a weekend? Or how Marvel managed to drive away O'Neil, Starlin, Miller, Kirby, Byrne, and more with their terrible editorial and business practices?


Get our head out of your ass you shill.

When SJW's run your company you're bound to produce garbage.

They are lucky their movies are doing so well. Because they'd be fucked otherwise.

I think you responded to the wrong post.

triggered?

desuarchive.org/co/search/image/koFQD9Phy5FCslFNp-Xy3w/

> talent like fraction, remender, aaron
yes they used to be great. aaron's wolverine was loved, his immortal weapons were great, had an epic ghost rider run, and did a great black panther. his thor was amazing until femthor where it went off the rails
i've already mentioned fraction and remender above

>people bitch about bendis on avengers, but 1) it was selling like fire
the people who bitched about bendis avengers were traditionalists. they wanted kang to show up for the umptheeth time or ultron or something boring like that. bendis recognized that they should be the premier marvel team not the x-men. i disagree with some of the shit he did but he gave it a huge shot in the arm. hickvengers and illuminati would've never happened without it

>people hated on millar but civil war shaped the universe still today and ultimates was amazing
if you don't think vol 1/2 of ultimates is good then you don't understand comics

>DC's movies being shit
they are. i guess this just means you're a DCEU apologist

Oh I was, thanks

This was meant for
fucking shill

They didn't create it; that was Martin Goodman.

>just mention some okay - good 2000s run
>reply to a post talking about the actual creators and marvel's history
>somehow the other guy is the surface fag


no, YOU are the surface fag. How does Annihilation make up for fucking over Steve Gerber despite Howard The Duck being the company's saving grace at the time?

You guys are literally just yelling "No, you!" at each other

>smug reaction image

>triggered?
No, just bored with shills and--
>if you don't think vol 1/2 of ultimates is good then you don't understand comics
Scratch that, you shills are hilarious!

He's also the dude who OKd New52, which at best was a total mess of a reboot.

how?

you are right
should quit with the reaction images

>One of Martin's outrageously successful business moves during the last years of his tenure at Marvel was to trick the industry's top company, DC Comics (then called National Periodical Publications), into committing an ultimately disastrous page-count and pricing change
More at
twomorrows.com/comicbookartist/articles/16goodman.html

Nah, New52 was Harras. You casuals are hilarious.

Thanks! I didn't know that.

>old fart will never forgive Didio for raping his idols
Relax, grandpa. Shall I call the doctor?

>hickvengers and illuminati would've never happened without it

That's not helping your argument.

>le meme response

You're welcome. And read Twomorrows publications; that people truly love comics and always tell the truth.

But the meme is from the book you were just shilling

i'm not a done at all, you keep trying to paint stan lee as a fucking evil guy when that's simply not true

it's not like kirby isn't a grown ass man who didn't know how to read a contract. do i like it? no, but that is the business and that's what BOTH companies do. it's why fucking image (in theory) is superior

you act like DC didn't just have a new decades long lawsuit with siegel/shuster estates. DC standing idly by and helping bob kane shit all over bill finger. shitting on kirby's new gods, DC trying to strong arm fawcett over shazam

fucking EVERYTHING that every happened to alan moore for god sakes

both companies are corporate at the top and shit on creators. don't pretend that DC's shit doesn't stink. they are equally bad. hell stan himself had to sue marvel. when you work as a contractor for a media company (comics, video games, record label, etc) your creation is their property

The creators of Miss america chavez had to remake her character just to have a solo.

>The Sheeple had to pawn caps and punctuation
Oh boy, are they paying you that bad?

they're both great concepts and loved outside of Sup Forums

only the same hackmanfag autists were shitting on it in every thread but it was always loved during story times, we'd have multiple threads hit the limit discussing it

THE OP IS IS TALKING ABOUT MARVEL AROUND IRON MAN/PRE-DISNEY AND YOU COME IN HERE TO DERAIL ABOUT HOWARD THE DUCK YOU FAGGOT, YOU DID THIS THE OTHER DAY TOO. THIS ISN'T A THREAD ABOUT MARVEL IN THE 60s

No one is mentioning Lee (except for the fact that he did indeed waste a bunch of company money on a fucking concert in his honor) except you son.

I never said DC was innocent, but at least they learn from their mistakes and try to atone. And I'm salty about what happened to Moore, and his friends for that matter, but like you said about Kirby, he is a grown ass man and can read a contract. The thing is, DC kept trying to give Moore money for using his creations but he denied it. Meanwhile, Marvel never tried to give Kirby anything.


and DC never shit on kirby's new gods, they in fact let Kirby do whatever he wanted while he was with them, despite his books (like Kamandi) not selling particularly well at the time.


And I'm glad Stan had to sue Marvel, he aided the beast that now bites him.

MUH PAID SHILLING MEME

go back to Sup Forums

There's no ban. If there were a ban, they'd stop publishing those titles. Just straight up "we don't want to play" stop.

There's no passive-aggressive semi-ban where you're still making them a quarter of your lineup each month but not half like you used to because that's totally going to show FOX.

They just don't sell well compared to the rest of the line, so a lot of the shit gets cut.

>but Jubilee Kills Deadpool only sold 1500/month!

Nobody cares. Limited series don't have to hit the high sales required of an ongoing (but very low orders can kill them sooner just the same, if the art isn't done yet). Some books, even ongoings, just won't sell for whatever reason. You've got a six-month lead time in which these titles go from script to sale - so most low-ballers get a trade or two, even if their last handful of issues are below cancellation. That's it. Pure economics.

Marvel 16 years ago was almost bankrupt. They literally almost went out of business - they'd lost huge amounts through the crash in the 90s - the market shrank 15% every year for five years before it stabilized - and the early years of the 2000s were tough going

When Quesada came on board the company was fucked. So to help sales he just tried everything - new creators, new lineups like MAX (and finally dumping the CCA forever), changing up the legacy series. New X-Men under Morrison came from that push; House of M came five years later, building on the massive changes Morrison had pushed through. People forget it wasn't Wanda who killed off the X-Men - it was Morrison, by having almost all the world's mutants gather in Genosha, then killing them for shock value

Avengers got the same treatment in 2004; it wasn't selling - X-Men were doing good business at the box office before Marvel was a competitor of FOX, but they'd done good business through the 90s. So they dumped the old Avengers for the New Avengers with Disassembled and went from there.

Sales were great.

>only the same hackmanfag autists were shitting on it in every thread
Oh shit, it's you. I thought you had committed suicide after Shitman left?

>Was Marvel at a better place creatively prior to the Iron Man movie release and the Disney Merger the fallowing year?

He is asking about all time prior to the Iron Man movie, he never denotes a specific period.


You are so triggered its almost not funny.

I hate Bob Harras as much as the next guy, but DiDio was still the one in charge.

Like, even if you like the direction they went it, you can't deny that New52 was terribly planned out.

>caps

Harras was, and still is, Editor in Chief at the time. It was very much his project. But Didio is the public face.

>The thing is, DC kept trying to give Moore money for using his creations but he denied it.
Except money is not what they actually promised him. Hooray for corporate settlement.

>even if you like the direction they went it, you can't deny that New52 was terribly planned out.
Does not compute. If I liked it, why would I hate it?

Oh shit, does this mean that it is thanks to Harras that DC is doing so well now?

DC had shitty sales all through the 70s, and the late 60s, falling almost consistently year on year, until they'd lost more than half their peak sales by 1980. At that point, Marvel's sales had also been falling for three or four years - but they actually rose in the following years (especially under Shooter with the changes he brought) while DC's stayed more or less the same.

...