Junion Doctors Strike - What's it really about?

The BMA (professional association/trade union for doctors) has announced a series of 5 day full strikes starting next week, every month til Christmas. This strike will see all services withdrawn leaving senior doctors to cover emergency and general services. This latest strike comes a few months after the BMA balloted members on whether or not to accept a new contract that sees changes to wages and standard working hours. 68% of those eligible responded to the ballot, of this 58% voted to reject the new contact (bma.org.uk/news/2016/july/junior-doctors-say-no-to-new-contract) . At no point did they vote for a full strike, but here we are.

So Sup Forums. Do you support the doctors? Do you understand their concerns? Is this really about pay and working hours or is there something deeper going on here?

Other urls found in this thread:

webdc.com/pdfs/deathbymedicine.pdf
telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/leak-reveals-junior-doctors-plot-to-draw-out-bitter-contract-dis/
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

Where're all my fellow bongs at?

Fully support them. They should strike until the government caves. Also fully integrate dental and eye care.

>waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah we are forced to work overtime even if we will get paid more!
>waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah my social life is being negatively affected!

Fucking normies.

Unlike you Limeys, our doctors don't strike.

Caves in what way? Rolling back the commitment to 7 day NHS? For what reason?

I think support will drop off pretty quickly into winter. Year on year our hospitals get busier around christmas. A sizable chunk of hte workforce taking a weeks holiday at this time will kill people.

It's entirely about the money.

Under the current contract, junior doctors have a set number of hours they are expected to work at a fixed hourly wage rate. If they work overtime, they get paid a higher rate than their standard one. This rate goes up further if said hours are 'unsociable'.

The new contract limits the overtime hours they can work and raises the standard pay rate for regular hours while scrapping the increased rate for overtime and unsociable hours. This is intended to stop doctors working when they're tired and give them more time to rest between shifts, thereby improving safety for patients.

Junior doctors are asspained about this because they see their double rate overtime and unsociable pay as a cash cow. They can currently work 30 hours of overtime in a week and make double wage for it. Under the new contract, this cash cow is slaughtered and they can no longer put patients at risk for extra cash.

Their response to this is to claim that reducing the hours they can work is unsafe because there will be fewer doctors on wards, and their idea of appropriate action is to strike extensively and reduce the number of doctors on wards(!).

The problem is exacerbated by the fact that the BMA will take any opportunity to fuck with the Tories and the fact that Hunt is a slimy sack of dicks with no negotiation skills.

I bet you haven't even done a days work in your life

Our doctors didn't used to strike.

Then the health secretary pushed them too far and they've now got the strike bug. The revised contract probably wouldn't have had them striking if it was the first one proposed, but Hunt has unleashed a monster.

But it will take doctors of wards meaning less doctors will have to do more meaning they will be more stressed more tired and make more mistakes hence putting people at risk

>Caves in what way?

Ramping up funding to ensure the NHS properly functions. Nothing against a 7 day NHS so long as it is properly funded. We lag behind countries like France in health funding anyway. Of course that won't happen, the Tories won't concede just yet. A general strike could make it happen though.

Utter bollocks lad, there is (despite popular scare) no shortage of newly qualified doctors. If there's a staff shortage it's because management is retarded not because there aren't enough qualified people to go around.

Really we should be splitting the NHS into a series of regional bodies and giving them devolved budgets and financial accountability but MUH ENN EYCH ESS means any suggestion to break it apart is doomed to die on a bonfire of screeching socialist harpies.

There's too much bureaucracy not too few doctors.

No one will admit that the NHS is pushed to breaking point due to immigration.

I don't necessarily support the junior doctors with everything, but I do think people should be paid more for weekend and night work. Some of the areas with the worst recruitment and retention rates (A&E, ITU) have the most out of hours work and making their pay more comparable to a dermatologist who just sits on their arse 9-5 isn't going to help - nor does it make much sense to me.

I think this set of strikes will harm them in the public eye in the long run though.

In previous strikes they have been supported by consultants who have provided more cover on the wards and so they've probably been safer. Not sure if this goodwill will continue on indefinitely.

I'd agree that it should be properly funded. But finding has been increasing year on year. It is higher now that at any point in our history, both in terms of hard cash and % of GDP. I think PFIs may have killed it, but don't hear the doctors saying much about this. I also get the feeling that they still wouldn't be happy if the gov was to chuck an extra 50bn at a new recruitment drive. We need more doctors so I'd consider fining people who train in the UK (especially Scotland) then choose to move abroad.

Sorry, here; didn't read the post you were replying to properly.

I agree with you. There isn't going to be more funding or more people, but services are going to be increased. How you can increase services without increasing staff or funding when the NHS is struggling already is beyond me.

Fucking disgusting lazy cunts. They knew what they were getting into when they went into the job, everybody in healthcare gets shafted (me included) because the NHS is underfunded. If you can't handle that then you shouldn't have become a doctor. No sympathy, you swear an oath to help people when you become a doctor and money should be secondary.

>The problem is exacerbated by the fact that the BMA will take any opportunity to fuck with the Tories and the fact that Hunt is a slimy sack of dicks with no negotiation skills.

I thought there was an element of this to it.

No it'll mean more vacancies open up meaning more doctors doing less work each you silly turd

webdc.com/pdfs/deathbymedicine.pdf

i would wanna take a break from being a murderer too

Medical school intake numbers are very closely linked to training places for junior doctors - there isn't a mass of unemployed juniors just waiting for the right job.

Hunt wants to increase the provision of NHS services, which means there will be more shifts to fill. Except, there won't be funding for more staff. Therefore increasing staff in clinics or wherever on the weekend means decreasing staff at other times.

It's largely a funding issue, but there are problems in some areas (both specialisms and regional) in recruitment too. Doctors leaving to go to Australia and NZ isn't a meme. We can make the NHS better to work in for our junior staff, or we can hire the doctors educated in the best mud huts of Africa.

>there won't be funding for more staff
They'll be saving a tidy wad by not paying ridiculous amounts in overtime.

I think this is a huge part of it. How many of these 'refugees' are bringing shitty third world illnesses with them? How many more are abusing the system for other reasons? I'd love to see a breakdown of admissions broken down by race or nationality. Bet it's the fucking muzzies desu.

I appreciate that the job is high stress but costs are spiraling between old people, migrants and health tourists. And lets not forget how cushy a NHS pension is compared to the standard pension of somebody working in an average wage private sector job. Doctors have it pretty sweet.

They are greedy subhuman scums.

The NHS is worthless. Needed a wrist operation for 3 years, saw 2 different musculoskeletal doctors who refused to send me for an mri because 'muh resources' (meanwhile paki subhumans seem to get infinite healthcare just fine), even gave them the exact problem with my wrist, which could only ever be confirmed by an mri or exploratory surgery, but no. Had to live with a half-functioning wrist in constant pain for 3 years meanwhile achmed or n'dugdakwnege gets VIP treatment every single time.

Got a decent job with private healthcare included, had it scanned, diagnosed, surgery, and fixed within 1 week.

Fuck the NHS and fuck any stupid cunt who defends it. Complete waste of tax money.

It's a fair point, but why are they paying overtime rates anyway? Because they can't hire people to fill the roles. Same reason why we spend so much on agency nurses.

Is all the "overtime" payments actually overtime or is it going to locum doctors too, who may not actually be employed permanently anywhere? The contract won't really touch the latter who may be locuming so they can try various specialities or want the flexibility while waiting for a training place.

Doctors have very stressful jobs. Most is time and paperwork related.
The solution is to have more doctors. Unfortunately, an above average intelligence is required for the job.

There isn't enough money to pay for all the doctors and facilities.

The answer could be to have something between a nurse and a doctor, who deals with more common complaints and only refers to a specialist when they are unable to deal with it.

Doctors also earn too much money, a ridiculous amount and live lives separate to the rest of people. Sure they study for 10 years, but they make that back in the first year of working.

Reduce doctor pay, use the money to employ twice the number of half-doctors.

Also, refuse treatment to all homosexuals, feminists, obese, muslims and generally,anyone who isn't white.

Reduce treatment to females, as they go to the doctor eighteen times a month because they are feeling bored or sad or tired or hungry.

Men go once every year or two.

They already work weekends and nights. Now they will be paid less for doing so, not more like you say.

Anyway. The new contract was a reasonable compromise. You have to understand that the would be no strikes or issues if the contract as it was/is just remained the same. They are fighting a pay cut and the possibility of a 7 day elective NHS.


The only justified reason for the strikes now is fighting the possibility of a 7 day NHS. They are fighting this as they know it is impossible. Of course if you are hurt or sick you will get treatment on a weekend as always; but they dont do elective operations and clinics. Hunt wants to make this happen without employing any more people. This means stretching services much thinner. The problem doctors see is that they are already at breaking point. Wards that should have 5-6 junior doctors are getting by with 3. Work loads have exploded , every minute of every day is frantic making serious decisions constantly and working many extra hours than contracted for just so it doesn't all fall apart. And Hunt wants MORE!

Not only that but realise that to make a true 7 day NHS you also have to make sure that all other staff from porters to physios to secretaries etc are there just as much on a weekend as they are during the week. All without any extra money.

Our doctors see around 60 patients a day on average, the rest of European doctors see around 40 patients on average per day. What needs to be done is to increase the supply of doctors by lowering the entry requirements, at the moment they are far too strict, I'm not talking about lowering the academic requirements I'm talking about stupid cautions for disturbing the peace not being a blocking point to enter medicine, we need to clamp down on the overseas students coming here also because they hog the places that should be going to homegrown students that miss out.

Immigration really does need to be tightened as well because that is putting strain on them. My surgery has over 6000 patients registered at it with only 3 doctors and a registrar working there. It's insanity and cannot continue like this.

With the increase in the amount of doctors the wages and hours can come down also.

It's a clusterfuck at the moment and lot's of things are needed to sort it out but they refuse to accept change, they are content with the rot that the NHS is at the moment.

Surely locums will be less depended upon if general staff are expected to work at least 1 in 4 (6? I forget) Saturdays?

Problem i have is that the NHS is too bloated with paperwork and managers mostly because if the slightest thing goes wrong they will be sued to fuck.

They get billions every year but where the fuck does it go?

Does not help that health tourism is a current thing which exists and it gets royally abused, need health insurance for all visitors.

Also alot of treatment is bullshit diseases such as obesity which causes other problems such as diabetes, arthritis, heart problems etc which need to be stopped now or we make the fattys pay for treatment and that goes with druggies and alcoholics too. For too long now normal healthy people are paying for others life in which they are determined to end it or fuck it up with there shitty lifestyle.

Also take nights out where every fucker is drunk and cause damage, for example where they fell through a fucking window when hammered, they should be made to pay for the damage and for any injury to themselves.

NHS could easily reclaim millions with simple actions such as these.

Frankly though doctors should get paid a very good wage desu, it is a shit job when you consider it and compare it with a gobshite like wayne rooney who would barely get a job as a dustbin man if he could not kick a ball.

Refuse to treat anyone who isn't english for 0 generations.
Refuse to treat women and old people.

You'll have 2 patients a day.

I agree and I do think doctors should shoulder some financial pain, but making conditions awful and driving them away doesn't help. Not building PFI hospitals that cost more in the long run and stop bigging up choice to patients, which leads to money being spent on marketing and more management, who 9/10 times just choose the most local/easiest option anyway would be a start.

Public support waning, infighting amongst doctors (consultant and GP reps both voted against, Royal Colleges oppose the strikes), the fact that the BMA PROPOSED this contract and is now doing a ridiculously over the top strike means I can't see it lasting for too much longer.

One other thing, I'm a final year medical student and about 80% of a f1/f2 doctors job can in theory be done by someone else. Cannulas, catheters etc. there's no reason any of this needs to be done by a doctor. Prescribe, discharge, refer and occasionally overseeing crash calls. There's going to be an expansion of roles by nurse practitioners and an introduction of the American Physician Associate role to take the workload away from doctors. that's when it will get interesting as the BMA won't have a leg to stand on.

>Our doctors see around 60 patients a day on average, the rest of European doctors see around 40 patients on average per day.

That's fucked. Got any further stats about who is hogging up all these doctor hours and why we're so fucking ill?

This.

People who drink/smoke or are in any way obese should be refused treatment.
They can pay for private doctors or extortionate health insurance.

Also, any woman attempting any kind of activity that is better suited to a male should be refused treatment.

My cousin's a dustbin man. rose to be manager and earns quite well, probably far better than me.

10 generations.

No one cares about the f1/f2 doctors. Cut their pay in half and no one would fuss. This is about the registrars who are the back bone of the hospital.

>One other thing, I'm a final year medical student and about 80% of a f1/f2 doctors job can in theory be done by someone else. Cannulas, catheters etc. there's no reason any of this needs to be done by a doctor. Prescribe, discharge, refer and occasionally overseeing crash calls. There's going to be an expansion of roles by nurse practitioners and an introduction of the American Physician Associate role to take the workload away from doctors. that's when it will get interesting as the BMA won't have a leg to stand on.
A charge nurse cannot do an arterial blood test, but I agree with what you say, why the fuck do we have phlebotomist's if a doctor has to insert a cannula/take a sample of blood from someone or fit an NG tube.

Do they know of these planned changes? Is this part of the reason they're kicking and screaming so much? That essentially they know they've got it pretty sweet right now and don't like the thought of this changing?

Do you have much association with the BMA? Are their leaders closet commies?

I don't have them to hand as I'm not at home right now but ITV news did a report not long ago about waiting times and they covered the average number of patients seen by doctors per day in surgeries.

In regards to illness I couldn't possibly say, one of the biggest ones is diabetes off the top of my head and obesity related problems also back pain.

Because women go to the doctor for a cold.
When nothing can be done.
Women go to the doctor when stressed - all the time.
Women go to the doctor for sicknotes to dodge work every month.

Immigrants flood in with dozens of exotic diseases and massive genetic abnormalities due to inbreeding, as well as mishaps with home female circumcision.
Plus old people are constantly ill due to being old.

International students are extra to home students. They aren't funded by the NHS and are expected to leave at the end of their course. I'm not sure about EU students.

Another way to increase medical school places would be to expand graduate entry courses. They are shorter courses that can be just about financially manageable due to fees being set up different. Graduates also tend to not want to chase oversubscribed specialist places.

If someone is working a Saturday, then they won't be working that Thursday, for example. So you'll need the locum for Thursday.

I know they're not funded by the NHS, but we also have a problem with drop outs in medical schools, women are 50% more likely to drop out of medical school within the first year. We need to introduce a punishment for that, they have to pay full cost of medical school even if they drop out. It costs £250,000 to train a doctor in this country. Those that enter medicine thinking it's all fun and games need to learn that it is not.

So what you're saying is "kill all women".

Seems a bit extreme, but we can give it a try.

Nurse practitioners can do ABGs if they're trained.

Part of the problem is training and not having the time/money to do it. Doctors are expected to be able to do certain things, and are trained to do so during med school, so they get roped in to do a cannula when no-one has bothered to train up nurses on the ward to do it.

And then there are morons who complain that nurses are acting like doctors and that some untrained HCA is attending to their shitty arse without realising that healthcare is more advanced than when they were younger.

No, but there should be a harsh penalty placed on drop outs. Also female doctors that want to set up families and take leave to get pregnant? Nope, that shit needs banning too. You can't have your cake and cookies love, you entered medicine, no time to be a baby cannon. Sorry.

Oh fuck I'm hank marvin here with sod all grub in the house and you go and post that

Applications to medical school could do with looking at as a whole. A lot of kids, mentally most are children when they apply, apply because they think it will be cool or they did one week of work experience shadowing a consultant that happened to be doing a lot of interesting procedures that week. Get them shadowing a junior doctor on a night shift or a month as a HCA. The application rates would plummet.

I think we could probably relax the academic requirements a bit while looking more at the other stuff and end up with better medical graduates.

Perhaps a mandatory hysterectomy upon joining the medical training course. Right in the beginning.

Then they would have no reason to live apart from to be a doctor. It would also solve the time off problem.

I have never met a nurse/practitioner that can perform that test. But the rest of what you say is 100% spot on and I agree.

>Get them shadowing a junior doctor on a night shift or a month as a HCA.
This this this oh God this.

We could lower academic requirements in exchange for more practical requirements for example, volunteer work on ambulances or something along that line.

>why are they paying overtime rates anyway? Because they can't hire people to fill the roles
No user the problem is that their overtime rates are too high which means they can't afford to hire people to fill the roles.

was just finishing my warhammer painting guys

PAs (pyhsician associates) are coming in. They are effectively junior doctors but without the opportunity for progression. They can't discharge or prescribe but crucially can admit and do pretty much everything else. They will likely be used a lot in A and E and the wards. This would push JDs roles to be slightly more managerial but there's enough work to go round.

yup registrars and surical trainees are the ones you need to worry about. I would actually be in favour of a new contract for those in specialty training (reg) positions

yh a f1 and f2 year is basically just showing a bunch of overhyped, overprivilidged kids (23-28 most of them) how to talk to people. They are mainly their for training but the training does need to be done.

thats what im saying a lot of procedures are done by other health professionals. Do you really need 5 years of medical school to train to take ABGs or NG tube insertions? They are practical uncomplicated procedures, any one of us could train to do it in a couple weeks. I would say its just not necessary .

>diabetes
>obesity related problems
>back pain
fat people should not get medical care other than forcing them to be less fat

>If someone is working a Saturday, then they won't be working that Thursday, for example. So you'll need the locum for Thursday.

Not necessarily. Many will currently work 5 or 6 day weeks. The difference is they've lost one of the perks of the Saturday shift. Those who worked every Saturday available will be disincentivised to and those who took every weekend off will be made to do the odd Saturday. I agree that ultimately they need more doctors. But this isn't the point the BMA are making.

I worked as a HCA on a respiratory ward for a couple of years (which incidentally put me off applying for medical school...) so I saw quite a few. They only worked nights and weekends though, replacing F1s at night, so they weren't around all the time.

I really liked our nurse practitioners. They were all senior and had done stints on acute medical wards, ITU and usually A&E and were more useful in an emergency than some flailing baby doctor. They're probably more expensive than F1s/F2s, but I think they are definitely part of the solution to filling antisocial hours work.

>PAs (pyhsician associates) are coming in. They are effectively junior doctors but without the opportunity for progression.

This is interesting. Hadn't heard of them before. Would there be a high uptake here though? Surely if you've gone through med school the big bucks that you can make as a consultant would be appealing to most? I guess if you want time to yourself then PA would suit?

So what you are saying,,is that all nurse practitioners should be sex slaves for patients and doctors alike.
Chained to a bed, and freely available for public use.

I see where you are coming from, especially for stress reduction.

Basically it's a two year conversion course for biomed/pharma graduates. Don't think you get a degree. It's as if someone looked at the 5 years of medical school and said 'what do we actually need to churn out some nhs drones' and they've managed to condense it down to two years. They are not doctors and never will be but its a good career if you can't get into medicine and a lot of people in the states actually pick it over medicine. Better hours, less stress, still good pay. I've met a few and yes a couple have a massive chip on their shoulder about not getting into medicine but they seem to do a good job

What I mean is. I have nothing of value to say, and have wasted my life and wish I had become,a doctor or a scientist as I had wanted to be. Instead I became depressed, was kicked out of school and wasted all my potential.
Then my father died and I just shut,myself in for a decade.

I finally dug my way out of it, did positive things, then everything went wrong.
Now I am too old to do anything worthwhile and my health is inexplicably failing.
Doctors have failed me by mostly being ignorant and uncaring, and I have little left to live for.

This is probably a chicken and egg situation. I'm sure if there was a lot of competition for the roles, either full time applications or people picking up overtime, they would try and get away with paying less for overtime.

Yes, that is exactly what I said Pedro. Also, can you train your nurses better? They all come to work in our hospitals and then complain that they have to do some work and not sit around looking important.

They are fairly busy here. I suppose the ones you receive are fresh and without experience.
It is quite common for Spanish docs and nurses to go to England for a stint to improve their language and see different methods.

They aren't at all fond of the bureaucracy in England though, the threat of being sued,,health and safety procedures and the inhumanity that eixsts between patient and doctor.

As for training, supposedly the system here 10-15 years used to be one of the best. It has fallen a long way due to the economy.

>they would try and get away with paying less for overtime
They have tried before, hence the NHS striking every other weekend.

>Basically it's a two year conversion course for biomed/pharma graduates.

Got you. This seems like a good idea. Potentially opens up a broad new pool to recruit from too, people who went into pharmaceuticals looking for a change.

How in the fuck did I miss this before?

>Leak reveals junior doctors' plot to 'draw out' contract dispute for 18 months and 'tie government in knots'

telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/leak-reveals-junior-doctors-plot-to-draw-out-bitter-contract-dis/

I was giving them teh benefit of the doubt before but this is some grade A bullshit political gaming.

I'm being a little harsh - it seems nursing is run slightly differently in your country and that they are just struggling with the different expectations. Or at least that's what they tell me.

Male activity? such as frontline in the armed forces? or even a fisherman? I dont know if i would go that far desu but women should not be in the front line of the armed forces or even police because they tend to be a liability.

Yea and that big eared muppet gets 250k a week for kicking leather about.

Your cousin had to work, he doesn't.

Spanish docs also find it hard to make friends with English ones while there too.
If you meet any, try to be about 25% more open to them than you would another. They'd rather not just have to hang out with other foreigners.

the joys of socialism

Any make activity.
Including all sports and drinking alcohol.

My great aunt is Canadian and she came to the US for cancer treatment because the wait list for Canada's socialized medicine was something like 18 months

Also forgot to add these.

Abortions for children who would be born with life changing difficulties, if they are braindead or do not have a clue what the hell is happening why should they be allowed to live. Sounds awful but survival of the fittest, plus if they do manage to live long enough to become an adult with no change to there condition it is a drain on resources, we do not even let a dog live like this so why humans?

Euthanasia for old people too, no point in looking after people with demenia once they are too far gone and cannot remember you, or just a cyanide pill of those who have had enough and want to end it. Living forever is pointless if you piss yourself everyday and have bno clue what is happening, again we do not do this with animals.

No-one is going to be putting anyone on a waiting list for urgent cancer treatment for 18 months. Go away, private medicine shill.

That Job exists, it's called a PA, physicians assistant

Should be in charge of medical care in englsnd.

As long as you include no free treatment for anyone without 10 generations of english ancestors.

Price can reduce with every generation by 10%.

doctors that strike should be laid off and banned from practicing medicine.

Thanks man but it is common sense and they do not like it.

Also liberals will complain about killing people, 50years ago if a kid was 2 headed and had an arm sticking out of its arse they would take it away not show the parents and say it died. Now every parent wants to see the kid as soon as it pops out.

Also big pharma loves the NHS in general, they give doctors bonuses for shifting out certain drugs such as statins which are proven to cause more problems which then means more drugs for those problems so more money.

As a copper, I just don't understand the justification for this new series of strikes.

If you start a career because you want to help people, how can you be okay with the fact that you're directly putting people's lives and health at risk by your actions?

I'd get it if junior doctors were poorly paid, or under-appreciated, but they're fucking not, not by a long shot. Everyone loves the NHS, everyone respects doctors, and the average salary of a junior doctor is far more than I earn right now, and I guarantee you my hours are far more "unsociable" and almost entirely beyond my control.

I personally don't believe that any of the emergency services should ever strike, and I extend that to certain non-emergency NHS roles too. If people are relying on you to look out for them when they need it most, you're a shitty person for dropping your responsibilities just because things get tough.

>OBMA
>OBAMA
What did they mean by this?

But a doctor has half a brain and isn't on as much of a powertrip, nor as much of a persistently lying weasel as a member of your private army.