Zack Snyder's Ending Made More Sense Than Moore's

The ending to Zack Snyder's version of Watchmen makes more sense, and has a deeper amount of gravitas than the book version, and HERE'S WHY.

In the comic book, the heroes come together in the end due to the resulting abomination of a squid-monster attacking the planet. In essence, it justifies the morally questionable order of the WATCHMEN, but also further proves that the WATCHMEN are a necessity. But this deconstructs the entire premise of the book. The book is trying to make us become disenchanted with the thought of superheroes by deconstructing their symbols as paragons of virtue, but the ending completely negates that criticism by saying "yes, we do need them!" ultimately deconstructing the book itself.

The MOVIE on the other-hand, is much more clever. In the search for the end of violence between nations and the reduction of crime, we have Ozymandias create nuclear bombs that wipe-out millions of people in an instant, prompting to unify the world through force of arms. This in essence contradicts the theme of him being a hero and puts his moral integrity directly into question and not just by some manufactured monster. The symbol of the smiley face also becomes turned on its head, a 70's hippy symbol of peace and love, where the death of the Comedian shows that he was actually a good hearted hero. The price of peace was the death of the hero. The blood stain on the smiley representing the death and hypocrisy of the hippy ideal, a testament to the fact that this unattainable dream of love and peace everywhere wouldn't result in forced execution of those who would commit atrocities, but those wanting peace to be also committing atrocities. It justifies the Watchmen through the critiquing of hippy culture and liberalism.

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By doing this Zack Snyder evades the paradox of the book in which it deconstructs the deconstruction and instead insists that even though the Watchmen ARE morally grey, so is everyone else, but those with the power to make the difference who choose to make that difference are still good hearted (The Comedian) in the face of pure evil (Ozymandias).

He avoids the self-deconstruction that contradicts the themes of the book by making a social critique out of the over-idealized 70's social movements that persist today and gives reason to the fact that yes, not all heroes are infallible, but we can still count on them.

>the death of the Comedian shows that he was actually a good hearted hero
>the Comedian
>good hearted hero
Wut

>Putting this much thought into capeshit
>Not being a virgin
Pick one

the squid wouldn't work because they didn't include the one's who created it. a nuclear bomb made more sense in the real world.

The comedian refusing to go along with Ozymandias' plan shows that he still had hope, that he wasn't willing to commit genocide and instill tyranny.

Also, the Journal of Rorschach also symbolizes the renewed state of out-rage that humanity will have once it discovers what truly happened, that even after geocoding individuals, it will have all been for nothing in the end once it's been discovered it was a devised conspiracy to control humanity, and that it was not by free will that they chose to unite but under threat of imminent destruction, aking to Stalin, Moa, etc.

....At...At last....I truly see....Zack Snyder memes were true. All of them.

>I didn't read watchman and wanted to sound smart

>we have Ozymandias create nuclear bombs that wipe-out millions of people in an instant, prompting to unify the world through force of arms. This in essence contradicts the theme of him being a hero and puts his moral integrity directly into question and not just by some manufactured monster.

But there's nothing different about his motivations. He unleashed the squid to kill lots of people and unite the nations against the alien threat. He bombed NY (framing Manhattan) to kill lots of people and unite the nations against Manhattan. Though some people say that ending isn't as well put together as the squid, your argument is still null. Ozymandias' motivations were the same. Regardless if it was by squid or bombing.

Snyder's ending is simply tighter.
I'm surprised Moore decided the alien squid ass-pull really was the best conclusion to the series

You realize they weren't actually called The Watchmen, right?

Amazing how illiterate dipshits like you and Snyder can't even understand a comic book from the 80s.

The squid makes perfect sense just like the Outer Limits episode that inspired it. The idea was that Earth would only be united in peace and end the cold war if attacked from an outside force. Using the American creation of Dr. Manhattan makes no sense. Snyder is a fucking moron.

It isblike buying a nice looking watch but none of the inside gearz work well.

He should have stuck to panel recreations of simpler Frank Miller stories. He never should have been let near Watchmen. He doesn't even understand Superman, nevermind Moore's work.

>two minutes of squishy noises and fumbling around in the dark with a roastie that ends in messy discomfort and awkwardness somehow cures people of an interest in genre entertainment

Huh.

The Giant Squid ending hints that even if it was devised by Ozymandias, that there were still other unearthly threats that could arise without specific tampering.

The Snyder ending infers that this is a cop-out. It makes it look like Dr Manhattan has turned against humanity, and seeing as he is unkillable in the film to any degree, this makes the threat of a reprisal by humanity after discovering Rorschach's notebook all the more menacing, and also disturbing in terms of the implications. Dr Manhattan accepts his role as ultimate Tyrant of Earth once he sees it's "the only way" as Owlman said, meaning once Rorschach's journal is discovered Manhattan will be either forced to commit many more atrocities to keep everyone at bay, or leave Earth altogether.

The Comedian represented the hero, Rorschach represented humanity. In essence, the ideals of liberalism and hippy attitudes spells the doom for both, due to the tyrannical nature inherent in keeping such an ideal alive and in order.

The Snyder version works much better and has a lot fewer holes.

The worst part was he just wanted to recreate a bunch of cool, gritty violent superhero fights without understanding they're not supposed to be fucking cool. He made them super-heroic to the point that they have super strength too.

>deconstruction

>dat projection
Holy shit.

only people who haven't read the comic (though maybe they skimmed through the wikipedia synopsis) think the movie was better desu

>You realize they weren't actually called The Watchmen, right?

>illiterate

It's the easiest way to reference them as a whole. Wow, it's almost like a reference tool.

I've read the comic but I prefer the movie ending.

>been there, done that

Virgins who think sex is the ultimate life experience are fucking hilarious.

>The idea was that Earth would only be united in peace and end the cold war if attacked from an outside force. Using the American creation of Dr. Manhattan makes no sense.

It makes more sense than America's hated enemy throwing down their arms and uniting with America just because of a single dead monster just randomly appearing in New York and somehow killing a bunch of people

>Using the American creation of Dr. Manhattan makes no sense.
Except he "bombs" major US cities as well. Just because he is American-made does not mean he is American controlled. Why would any all-powerful God realistically have an allegiance to a specific country?

Make more sense than a literal island of scientists keeping their collective mouths shut about the super alien monster they're working on.

If the Comedian wasn't a complete piece of shit coward he would have actually worked to stop Ozy's plan rather then go cry about it. Your assessment that the Comedian was anything other then a sadistic piece of shit falls flat on its face

"Deconstruction is philosopher Jacques Derrida's critique of the relationship between text and meaning. Derrida's approach consists in conducting readings of texts with an ear to what runs counter to the structural unity or intended sense of a particular text. The purpose is to expose that the object of language, and that which any text is founded upon, is irreducibly complex, unstable, or impossible."

that's not what projection is

>If the Comedian wasn't a complete piece of shit coward he would have actually worked to stop Ozy's plan rather then go cry about it

He didn't stand a chance, honestly, as shown when Ozy kills him, and he knew he was coming to do it.

Nobody in the comic uses "the watchmen" save for people writing the sentence in grafitti around the city. It's an expression of distrust. It's like if you made a movie about policemen called "The Pigs" and that's what they unironically call their team.

Should have went down swinging like "a good hearted hero"

>we really have to have this argument every time
Manhattan was an American propaganda tool, the American people and the Russian people might have believed the rhetoric about him being a God who fought for one side against the other but the Russian higher ups knew as well as the Americans that Manhattan was beyond their grasp. They both knew he could wipe them both off the map without much effort, they would be powerless to stop him if he decided he wanted to and they were both nervous as fuck about him as a result, regardless of whether he chose to fight for America for the time being
It's like having an entire arsenal of nukes controlled by an AI with its own impermeable thoughts and feelings that at any moment might just swap 'allies' to 'enemies' and nuke its own country, except it's an independent organism you can't just shut down or switch off, to anyone who knew more about Manhattan than just the American propaganda he'd be utterly terrifying, and that he'd be seen as responsible for Ozy's plot is entirely reasonable

Who would they tell? They're kept their against their will and are later killed off to tie up the loose ends.

It's an easy cop-out when the movie flat out skips the reasons The Comedian felt powerless to do anything and bested by the plan.

Snyder is, always has been, and always will be, KINO

youtube.com/watch?v=8i7l6Mh6giE

you obviously haven't read the comic. or maybe i'm giving you too much credit and you have read it but you're just very stupid.

regardless, Snydermen is trash and him, David Hayter, and Alex Tse had zero grasp of the material.

He did tho

Manhattan didn't fully detach like that until he fled the planet after the TV interview though. Before that I don't know what he would've done to make the Russian government suspect he wasn't a fully American asset.

>had zero grasp of the material

Oh, I'm sorry, is a crystal-ball-viewing wizard who ideas straight out of 1984 and draws porno for a living now but tries to pawn it off as "existential, high-art" too smart for me? I don't think so.

If you actually had an argument you'd of said it by now, or you wouldn't be going "ur dum"

who steals ideas straight out of 1984*

Hiding in your room is not exactly what a good hearted hero does when a crisis that can end potentially millions of lives is occurring

Adaptations always have changes to them. Is Stanley Kubrick trash because of how different The Shining is from the book? Only the biggest turbo autist would sperg out this hard.

>he raped women and killed children and laughed while doing so, but he thought the Hiroshima metaphor was sad so he's a real hero!
>akin to Stalin, Mao, etc.
Holy shit, stop. I'm the biggest Snyder fan on this board and you've completely misinterpreted his film. You're making the lot of us look bad.

Much better to copy paste the same rick and morty / GoT thread every day.

Only reason the movie makes more sense is because Snyder removed anything that was clever about the original story so you're left with a simple solution that is only convenient for the simplified narrative.

Watchmen = Desolation Row
Watchmen movie = My Chemical Romance's shitty, shortened fast punk cover of the song

>Hiroshima metaphor

Not actually a part of the metaphor though. It had nothing to do with the military, it was about the governship of humanity, and that in order to achieve total peace and happiness, humanity itself needs to be destroyed along with the ideal of the hero.

Except the world didn't need superheroes at all. It (arguably) needed Veidt, who quits superheroing specifically because of the realization that nobody was getting anything done prancing around in tight underwear.

>we have Ozymandias create nuclear bombs that wipe-out millions of people in an instant
>This in essence contradicts the theme of him being a hero and puts his moral integrity directly into question and not just by some manufactured monster.
You mean the manufactured monster that wiped out millions of people just like the bombs did and actually fucked with the brain chemistry of the entire world? If anything the squid was a more devastating move than the bombs. How is the squid in any way more moral?

>happy face symbolism
Literally all in the comic already.

It doesn't make any sense because in the real world America would have 100% been blamed for Dr. Manhattan. He was an American scientist turned into a God-like being by an American experiment. He fought for the US during Vietnam. He's named after a US city for fuck's sake. Just because he went to space doesn't make him not American. The whole point of the alien ending is that all the countries of the world come together to fight an outside threat.

>we have Ozymandias create nuclear bombs that wipe-out millions of people in an instant

nigger did you read the book OR watch the movie?

Ozy in the movie made a bomb that acted like Dr Manhattan (not a nuke but magic blue stuff) to frame Manhattan

In the book he made an alien squid to attack earth and it insta dies without the Watchmen attacking in

In the end Ozy framed something for the deaths of millions, same result
But hey capeshit so this whole thread was b8

That's like saying the Russians can't have known how many nukes the Americans had unless Fox news had broadcast the numbers and the locations of each silo on air
You don't really think world powers just watch TV to get info on each other do you? The Russians in the comic as in real life will have had spies on US soil and taps on US higher ups, just like the Americans had on the Russians, they'll have known how the US really felt about Manhattan, maybe not in explicit detail but enough to know that they don't trust him at best and fear him greatly at worst

>at the end, he understood

It should be noted that those texts are in quotes, so it's not actually Ozymandias speaking truth about him turning a new leaf, he's trying to make himself believe that others also think what he's doing is the right thing to do.

This opinion is the easiest way t spot a pleb who didn't read Watchmen beyond a surface level.
They just saw squid monster in a serious story and went "WTF THATS SO STUPID"

>How is the squid in any way more moral?

Because it's a living creation that could potentially exist. He created it out of wanting to make Humanity try and recognize a "higher threat", in the movie, he IS the higher threat, he is exactly what the heroes were fighting against.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

u wot m8

They're in quotes because they don't belong to the panel displayed. The comic does this on nearly every page, take image A and combine it with image B to create meaning C.

>They just saw squid monster in a serious story and went "WTF THATS SO STUPID"

No, I've read Moore's Swamp Thing as well, which is infinitely better written than Watchmen, because it doesn't contradict its message.

From Hell is better than Watchmen

Yes, those are inner monologues. It's meaning is from an unreliable narrator.

This is basic fucking literature 101 m8

Did you forget where he framed Doctor Manhattan for the bombing? He's in no way a greater threat in the movie than the comic.

Ozymandias was kidding himself with the whole altruistic movie thing. He was a narcissistic psychopath whose only goal was to be considered greater than men like Alexander and Ramses II. That was the only thing he truly cared about.

I'm saying the Russians wouldn't know because what you're saying likely wasn't even there to begin with, not until Manhattan ran away. His detachment was there to a degree, but he always went along with the US governments plans for him. What did he do or say that the Soviets could've picked up on as confirmation that he'd do anything besides fight for America?

In the movie he's the higher threat to the small select group of heroes, not the world at large. In any way you're saying the squid is more moral, is also the ways that makes it more effective compared to bombing the city.

altruistic motive thing*

i never said that Watchmen was "existential, high-art" that was "too smart for you." i said that you either haven't read the comic, or if you have read it and think that's a correct interpretation of the ending, you, as a person, are stupid. a stupid person could also misinterpret The Very Hungry Caterpillar.

lol yeah Watchmen has changes in it and they're DUMB changes.

An HBO Watchmen series would be incredible if handled correctly

>framed Doctor Manhattan

Exactly, which is why it's so much better. It lays all of the weight onto Dr Manhattan, who doesn't oppose but agrees. Ozy is a true villain, that's fully realized in the film.

>inner monologues
He's literally talking to Dan and Rorschach as he explains his plan. The images are visual flashbacks, and the quotes are not a change in voice. In fact they indicate the dialog continues

Who opposed in the squid scenario? The squid? No, just the same people, so basically only Rorschach.

How? Explain is laying the weight onto Doctor Manhattan better. How does it make him a better villain?

Laying all the weight on Manhattan would certainly divide the world further. Think about how most of the world would view an American made man turned weapon having a meltdown

He wasn't always detached from humanity. He fought and won the Vietnam war for the US. He had allegiances.

>this is the average intelligence of a Zack Snyder fan

It's almost like they don't have any idea what Watchmen is about, just like their idol.

>In any way you're saying the squid is more moral

No, I'm not stating it's more effective, from a literary standpoint it's less effective because it contradicts the overall message of the story.

It's still evil, but it has more holes the theory of what it was meant to project from a thematic standpoint. That's the problem with it. Both methods work, both make him a villain, but the message of the text becomes obsolete with the original book if you think about how that impacts what it was trying to say.

Squid is the better ending

But it would take a director with considerable storytelling skill to pull it off
No amount of super slo mo can help so Zach chickened out.
the big baby

Morrison >gaiman >Moore

It was from a outer limits episode (Moore mentions it in the comic itself)
So I guess it's a homage more than a rip off
Sorta like how Alan moore paid homage to the novel SuperFolks and stole all its ideas

How does it contradict the overall message of the story? Whether Manhattan gets the blame or not doesn't really matter, he still consents to the plan and allows it to take place in the comic. In a way that's more consistent with his detached character that he doesn't take any kind of active role in the event.

>Snyder didnt "understand" watchmen
I love this meme. It allows me to instantly ignore everything you say because it shows how fucking stupid you are

so much no
I like Morrison but he could never have come up with something as dark as From Hell

That's just because Kubrick is very talented where as Stephen King is a hack.

>In any way you're saying the squid is more moral,

Are you listening to anything that's being mentioned in this thread? The idea is that the book isn't about bringing humanity together, it's about criticizing the power that the heroes wield.

Of course a giant alien squid is going to make people want to come together, until they discover who made it, just like the nukes.

The difference being, what the message of the book is compared to the message of the film. In the book, they find out it was Ozy, everyone pillages and burns him, and gets along with their lives.

In the movie, they find out it was Ozy, but with Manhattan at the helm of not just being in agreeance, but being directly culpable to the genocide creates a reason for him to further enforce it, which is a lot more sinister, and gets a lot more mileage out of the symbolism throughout both the film and the book.

I didn't say he misunderstood Watchmen, I'm saying he misunderstood that these characters aren't supposed to be deified. They're losers with masks who attempt to fight crime without actually changing the world. He shows them as total unstoppable badasses who fight through throngs of thugs like it's fucking nothing.

>But it would take a director with considerable storytelling skill to pull it off

Not really, it's been done before in film, in far more silly ways than in the comic while still being effective.

>They're losers with masks who attempt to fight crime without actually changing the world

Except for the fact that they do, seeing as they win the Vietnam war.

>, but with Manhattan at the helm of not just being in agreeance, but being directly culpable to the genocide creates a reason for him to further enforce it, which is a lot more sinister

I don't agree. I don't think Manhattan being complicit with the plan makes him any more sinister or fearsome than he already is. He won the Vietnam war for fuck's sake. Everyone knows he's invincible and capable of wiping out people if he so desires. If people were to suddenly find out he was only pretending to to nuke New York what would change? He's still capable of doing it. He already laid waste to the Viet Cong. People already know what he's capable of.

Call them the Crimebusters. That's what they refer to themselves as.

>The Giant Squid ending hints that even if it was devised by Ozymandias, that there were still other unearthly threats that could arise without specific tampering.

What threats? The giant squid was a one-off.

It's the implication in the film that the hippy/liberal ideal is maintained through fear and genocide.

It deconstructs the idea of what Ozymandias is trying to achieve, thus refuting the opinion that "super heroes aren't needed" and also refuting the opinion that the world needs to come together to be at peace.

Now I'm going to argue that you missed the point. Winning Vietnam did nothing to make the world more stable, and least not in the end. Even after winning the Vietnam war, things in the Watchmen universe still degraded to the point that Ozymandias felt he needed to bring the world together by blowing up New York. The world was still a mess. Ozymandias thinks he's changed the world for the better "in the end". But that's not true. Manhattan feels that the solution will not last and responds "nothing ever ends". The world will inevitably fall back into chaos. That is the whole point.

>argue that you missed the point
>Winning Vietnam did nothing to make the world more stable

But they did make change in the world. You could argue there wasn't enough content or in-depth analysis at how that changed the US, but it would've, just like it changed South Korea.

Moore likes to project his socialist ideas regardless if they make sense or not. He likes to pretend that it wouldn't of made a difference, even though there is a historical precedent for things such as what happens in WATCHMEN having actually occurred (I am talking about the liberation of South Korea)

>The idea is that the book isn't about bringing humanity together, it's about criticizing the power that the heroes wield.
Is it? I'm not too sure about that. Most of the heroes aren't actually super and don't do much at all with their powers. Manhattan upstages them and drives them to irrelevancy, which is what drives most of the books themes. The book doesn't dwell much on the possibility of Manhattan abusing his power, he just fucks off.

>In the movie, they find out it was Ozy, but with Manhattan at the helm of not just being in agreeance, but being directly culpable to the genocide creates a reason for him to further enforce it, which is a lot more sinister
Which is entirely out of character with everything established abut Manhattan.

WTF, what did he even project?

>there could still be outside threats
>all of earths new defenses are based on Manhattan
>actual otherworldly threats come along
>earth gets raped
You have to not only unite earth against a common unknown enemy, but also keep the scope of future defense open, not locked into one target.

kys

How is that not present in the book? Veidt's peace is still maintained through fear and genocide, but with an extra dose of mass brainwashing to boot. Also, how does that deconstruct the idea that superheroes aren't needed when the movie plan requires the only real superhero, Manhattan, for the plan to work at all. I think you're projecting politics in ways both creators didn't intend.

>the Watchmen

Snyderfags should just commit collective ritual sucide already.

>Make more sense than a literal island of scientists keeping their collective mouths shut about the super alien monster they're working on.

Ozy killed all the scientists and engineers.

This.

>he wasn't willing to commit genocide

The Vietnam war was pretty much a genocide.

Dubs

Dude, Super Heroes destroyed half of New York.
How can you make it more clear that they cause more bad than good?

>completely destroy the main storyline of the comics which also happens to be Lovecraftian as fuck
>make Ozymandias into an mustache-twirler villain
>turn Nite Owl into a moralfag who gets angry about Ozy's plan
>completely destroy the reveal of the Comedian being's Laurie's father
>eliminate all subtlety in Rorschach's storyline
>ruin every single scene on Mars
>Laurie and Dan straight out murder people
>literally call their old team as "The Watchmen"
>removed all extras and side stories, making the story feel small and constrained

It's one of the worst superhero adaptations ever made. And then people wonder why this movie flopped so badly, or why Snyder turned into such a blatant hackfraud later.

>two minutes
>in the dark

Grow up, user.

He turns the world's ultimate hero into the ultimate villain