There are about 60 million Germans aged 18 and above. Paying each of them 700 Euros per month would cost 40 billion per month or 500 billion a year. This is a lot of money, but Germany could cut all the current welfare, all the minimum pensions and other shit. And the whole administrative burden would fall away.
How is this not a thing?
>wow look guys there's this communism thing, I wonder why we never tried it before
t. you
Because ifd you give tens of millions of retards free money they will spend it like the apes they are
with a 'controlled' welfare system, atelast a lot of ur population isnt getting paid to do jack shit and the rest who do apply for welfare need to go through some kind of checks
Sup Forums will shit on this because muh communisms but its actually a thousand times better than the current welfare system designed to transfer resources to the weak and useless
Seeing how our government's a company now I don't see why they shouldn't pay us a wage. But the problem is that the whole administrative burden is the point of our system: It is meant to keep Germans from influencing their government directly because Hitler, and through the welfare people can be kept nice and complacent. It's not going away until a certain country that is currently more powerful than us starts waking up.
>>wow look guys there's this communism thing, I wonder why we never tried it before
The basic income is something libertarians including Friedman proposed.
Start to understand economics.
If they spend their money it goes right back into the economy.
We already have a basic income. It's called Hartz 4 or ALG II.
>inb4 it's only €400
Include rent, health care, electricity, heat & water. The actual costs for a person should be around €900.
(((Friedman)))
I was against it once, but let's face it, with the current grade of automation growing it will be inevitable in a few years. Robots will produce shit, educated people will earn more money, jobs for retards will simply dissappear.
>We already have a basic income. It's called Hartz 4 or ALG II.
Those are administrated.
The point of a basic income is that everyone gets it - unconditionally and regardless of your other income. A millionaire gets it too. That way no administration is required.
So? He is still a libertarian.
i assume there is a rule tho like u cant be making this much bla bla bla etc etc etc tho
25mil
at 400 euros low end
is above 100 bil a year thats a lot of money on top of free hand outs and thats just if its only 400
Basically this.
if everyone would get his 700 euros only people with high income would gain something from it, because people who already work for a shitty wage would quit their jobs and NEET their lives away.
No rules. Everyone gets the same money and it replaces all gibmees. You need to be a citizen or have worked 5 years and paid taxes to get the money.
As an alternative to bureaucratic welfare systems it's great. It cuts out a lot of bureaucratic nonsense and wasted resources and treats the welfare recipients a bit more like adults. But if they are going to receive free money with no strings that attached that also has to mean if they fuck up and spend it all on booze and drugs they shouldn't be given a break or anything like that.
Unfortunately it also never seems like there are ever plans in place to dismantle the existing welfare systems upon implementation of UBI.
The problem with this line of thinking is that that argument has been made a thousand times with every single new technology and yet the economy never died in the absence of UBI schemes. Literally your only argument is "It's different now because it's the future"
>if they fuck up and spend it all on booze and drugs they shouldn't be given a break or anything like that.
Yes, of course.
I think the great thing about a basic income is that if someone says he only wants to work 15 hours a week, he will not be discouraged to do so... because the basic income remains and he additionally gets his say 400 per month from part time work.
It would be highly attractive for lots of current gibmees people to work at least some part time job.
>the rest who do apply for welfare need to go through some kind of checks
"Checks" by public sector unionized workers. I wonder how much that costs.
Did you even make the effort to look through the current budget numbers? The total federal income for 2014 was 307 billion euros. Where the hell is the state supposed to come up with the additional 200 billion euros needed for this scheme, lower bureacratic expenses or not?
pensioners worked for it, Ahmed und Co. didn't.
>And the whole administrative burden would fall away.
So in other words you want to raise unemployment by 1 or 2%
>giving fish to a fisher instead of a net and teaching him how to use it the most effectively
God forbid you work for your money...
Seriously, why do people never ask the question "Where does that money come from"?
>Did you even make the effort to look through the current budget numbers? The total federal income for 2014 was 307 billion euros.
Did you even bother to check what total government spending sums up to (federal, state and local) and what the current total effective tax rate is?
Germany's GDP is 3.1 trillion Euro and while the total tax receipts are only 700 billion, there is another 1 trillion in mandatory insurance and pension payments which would be partly or fully replaced.
>So in other words you want to raise unemployment by 1 or 2%
With a basic income, the unemployment rate becomes irrelevant.
(((Basic income))) is a jewish marxist anti White idea. Just because you are born you are not entitled to someone else's money.
>lidl
>economy
Good point, can you tell me if I am eligible for ALG2 if I have never worked in my life? I could do it the hard way and get autism bux and get even more money, but honestly, I just need the very basics, so ALG2 is fine.
But it is different. Think about what happened to the horse population after automobiles became available. If you don't want riots and people starving to death a living wage is going to be necessary.
Autistic marxist neckbeard shill go back to your containment subreddit
you can only get it if you are mentally impaired like me and then you still need to look for a job and report back every 2-3months to ask for a renewal.
i´vent taken autism bux for over a year out of shame and crippling depression but if you want Sozialamt thingy , then ye whatever long road and medical exams etc.
you could just work half a year and then neet.
like any entry job you can find and be hired at.
just fill out an ALG2 form and send it to them or bring it personally.
trying doesn´t hurt.
Yas. I like UBI threads.
I've taken it a step further and worked out that for the most basic version of UBI the UK would need to find about £100bn a year to provide every adult £700/month(900 yurobucks). This assumes all other welfare is scrapped and replaced with the UBI.
The issues are that some people's needs way exceed £700 (think cerebral palsy). It also doesn't take kids into account, so a single mother of three would get the same as a single guy with no kids. I fully support UBI but these two issues are real and something must be worked out to get round them.
>the economy never died
Been in mexico recently? People there are handing out towels all day for shit money. If that does not mean part of the economy in poorer countries has died I don't know what it means. Even china with it's cheap labour workforce will have to rethink everything once robots get cheaper than their billions of factory zombies.
>More gibs me dat
If you want national suicide just dumping cyanide in the water supply would be cheaper.
So what's your solution to a 30-40% unemployment problem in 10 years when every transportation/logistics job is done by AI. Even today restaurants are removing staff and replacing them with fucking tablets to take orders.
Only if the legalized drugs as well.
>you can only get it if you are mentally impaired like me and then you still need to look for a job and report back every 2-3months to ask for a renewal.
Then it's not UBI.
What about remittances to all the cousin Ahmeds in MENA and Turkey?
and whoorin.
We kill the unemployed. Can't find a job by 27? Into the oven you go
Guess we're all dead then in 30 years when AI can out perform any human
>No rules. Everyone gets the same money
So how the fuck would the people gain any buying power without government controlling all the industries?
>American education
Try working 60 hours a week at 2 jobs and basic food is still a luxury item. Homeless and starving everywhere here. In my city we usually let 50 or so homeless die from exposure or illness and a few from drug overdose.
But hey, that's just the cost of our morally superior capitalist system.
Fuck this country.
Because they can't do that already, right?
Without being tongue in cheek, we are pretty much dead as a species the moment we create an A.I. more intelligent than us. It's probably the most probably existential threat we will face within our lifetime
>It also doesn't take kids into account, so a single mother of three would get the same as a single guy with no kids.
Thinking about it, why shouldn't ever kid at birth get a government bank account to which the government deposits the basic income. During the first phase of a citizen's life, parents would have access to that account.
you could start with say 150 euros a month for a newborn and then increase it to 200 euros for a 10 year old and 300 euros for a 14 year old, 400 euros for a 16 year old, 500 euros for a 17 year old and then 600 euros for a 18 year old.
As to special needs kids and other people who need more money because of health issues, well, I guess this could still be handled on an individual basis, no?
>So how the fuck would the people gain any buying power without government controlling all the industries?
What?
500 billion is just 15% of German GDP. It is just a redistribution between the people. Buying power would stay the same per Euro.
Bad idea. Creates an incentive for low income mothers to have children they can't afford. I'd limit it at an extra 150 for having children but not based on the number of children.
The entire "automation causes unemployment" argument is a marxist talking point that has no basis on empirical evidence or any theoritical unerpinnings (other than marxist pseudoscience)
If you're ancestors hadn't fucked up I would have had a fine education instead of a twisted Jewish one meant to dumb down the masses.
Guess i'm moving to germany.
basic income is a great thing
France should start doing this and cut all the welfare who only benefits to immigrants and assholes who are not working
>prices increase to compensate for the people having money to spend
>. Just because you are born you are not entitled to someone else's money.
Kind of ironic to see a Greek saying that.
What city is it?
In less than 10 years every single transportation job is going to be replaced by self driving vehicles. This includes taxis, truckers, delivery vehicles, warehouses moving inventory etc. What do you think can replace these jobs? You keep spouting Marxist Bullshit with out actually contributing anything intelligent.
>>prices increase to compensate for the people having money to spend
Yes? So?
But prices do not increase if I just hand 100 dollars to you, as the monetary supply remains the same.
The basic income would be funded partially by taxes, by cutting welfare and by itself... that is efficiencies which are created. Increasing the monetary supply is not really necessary to create basic income.
Mass automation has been taking place since the Industrial Revolution i.e. over 250 years. Unemployment outside of periods of recession has always been around 5%. There is no evidence that automation causes unemployment. If you understood basic economics you would realise why. Stop spewing marxist nonsense on Sup Forums you cringy neckbeard shill
Err.. because the administrative burden is less than 500 billion a year. NEXT QUESTION!
they'll answer you that they could work in high technology industry to work with robots and self driving vehicles
but let's face it, these people didnt make any study and could never find a job anymore
>The entire "automation causes unemployment" argument is a marxist talking point that has no basis on empirical evidence
Unemployment has gradually increased as automation has started to replace jobs in the last decades. Automation is going to hockey-stick in the next 10-15 years and with it, jobs will go.
There is a jobs-skills mismatch in the West. You can train people for certain jobs, but once all manual jobs die, most people just cannot be trained to do extremely highly skilled jobs that cannot be replaced by automation. People are just too dumb.
>The basic income would be funded partially by taxes
So hand over this money to yet another government bureaucracy where they give back less money than you gave them.
>thanks for $100 nazi
>here, have $87 in return
>see, we all win!
Have to argue that there were countless factors other than automation.
In fact, these unemployment figures suggest that most jobs WERE replaced afterwards, since around 50% of the jobs you had in the US in the 1950s were either outsourced or automated, but unemployment is "only" 10%
>So hand over this money to yet another government bureaucracy where they give back less money than you gave them.
Not if your whole system looks like this:
1. All revenue comes from consumption taxes, most notably a VAT.
2. The basic income is provided to anyone.
No administration required for this. No individual tax return required. You just created the perfect system.
>but unemployment is "only" 10%
Yes, because currently you can still somewhat match people's skills with the available jobs. But the number of people completely unsuitable for the labor market has increased a lot.
Look at all the "refugees" who come to Germany and anaylsts now say they just don't have the skills to succeed in the German labor market, at best they can do low skilled aid work at minimum wage... but those jobs ARE replaced by automation, which is why so many studies say the majority of "refugees" will never be able to get a job.
This.
>No administration required for this
...or just remove welfare et al altogether as it should be.
You mean how all those farmers never found jobs during the Industrial Revolution. Retard
And in your 'perfect system' you'll gladly hand them 700e per month in stead of checking them and deciding whether or not they should receive a single dime? We're all people, rite?
The industrial revolution replaced skilled labor at specialized workshops with unskilled labor at factories. Automation fucking removes labor from the picture. Do you get it yet?
>If you understood basic economics
You fuckin retard, mass automatisation has only recently reached a trend where it is more profitable than dull workers doing shit for pennies. Until now only parts of the industry could be replaced. People work on AI that's more intelligent and powerful than any human. We cannot all work as waiters and gyros sellers you know?
That bullshit is coming from a dude in a country with the highest unemployment rate in europe. Good god, how retarded can you get?
What will happen to the welfare administration? Will the employees get unemployed?
I just had a crazy idea.
What if we didn't pay anybody a basic income, and we cut all welfare anyways?
Don't fall for the Jewish scheme here guys. It's all promoted by (((political activists))) to get people lazy and to let in more unskilled immigrants with the excuse of "b-b-but you now get the same money as well don't you?"
Switzerland rejected this scam, do what they do, it's a role model .
So retarded, anyone making 1000€ or less will stop working and just pocket the 700 instead. We had a vote about this and it had one of the clearest NO we had in history of direct democracy.
Its retarded at every end you want look at it. It makes sense only to people who were able to live 25-30 years with ever holding a real job. Mainly students that is. We should ban students from voting until they successfully held a job for 5 years.
>The industrial revolution replaced skilled labor at specialized workshops with unskilled labor at factories
That's a marxist myth. The Industrial Revolution transfered labour from low productivity agricultural jobs to high productivity factory jobs and in the process raised living standards and real wages for everyone. Exactly the opposite of what (((marx))) predicted would happen
>Socialism will work this time because muh robots!!!
Why are marxist neckbeards so cringy and autistic?
I hope that Germany does this so after it completely fails due to abuse, corruption and unintended consequences, we'll never hear about it again. Please do.
>So retarded, anyone making 1000€ or less will stop working and just pocket the 700 instead.
What do you mean with "instead"?
It would be 1000 + 700 = 1700 for them. Why would they stop working and only get 700 Euros if they can get 1700 Euros?
>Will the employees get unemployed?
Yes, they will get the basic income and will have to find jobs that actually add to the economy.
this picture says it all.
>every citizen gets handed €700 a month
>all their rent immediately increases by €700 a month overnight
>wow socialist utopia
Or sit on their arses like the deluge of achmeds that will overflow your country because they get 700 euro's each month WITHOUT ANY INCENTIVE to work at all.
No it wouldn't. Go read up on it. At least the way it was proposed in Switzerland. You get money if you don't make any. How much Taxes do you pay now? How else do you think this is in any way financeable? You think the 1%will get 8,400€ a year but pay in 84'000 in taxes to pay your life? EU money? Skilled migrant workers paying more txes? Fucking lol.
>has only recently reached a trend
Proof? Because it sounds like you are talking out of your ass. Provide any kind of scientific evidence to back up your wild claims. Any study will do.
>>all their rent immediately increases by €700 a month overnight
Why would that be? Don't you think rent is set by demand and supply? There are cities in Germany which hand you apartments for free, because the major is so desperate to re-populate those cities.
The problem is, no one wants to be there, because there is no nightlife - especially refugees want to party hard so don't like these smaller cities.
Portland, bout 2mil population or so, but when it's common to find a dead body at some park then it's a bit of a problem.
Not even counting random murder or drug overdose deaths from people with a place to live.
Why wouldn't it be?
If everyone has an extra €700 a month, it's obvious that the cost of everything will increase in line with it. Wouldn't just be rent either.
>You get money if you don't make any.
What? No. This is not what a basic income is.
en.wikipedia.org
The whole point of a basic income is that ever citizen gets it and it is unconditional, so no checks have to be made. This way, the administration doesn't need anyone, you just need to automatically pay the money.
>If everyone has an extra €700 a month, it's obvious that the cost of everything will increase in line with it.
How so? The 700 euros would be funded through taxes and cutting other welfare. The monetary supply would not increase or only slightly increase. there is no reason for a basic income to contribute to inflation.
That's also not UBI then. UBI does not get cut if you earn more money. Everyone who would want some kind of good life standard would still work.
Besides that, I cannot even manage to take 3 weeks holiday without getting bored.
>you can buy a house, pay rent, water, electricity, heat, buy food. In germany. With basic income of 700€
Good luck hans.
It's not like the 700 would suddenly and magically appear out of nowhere, mate.
cnet.com
There's plenty more, just google unemployment and robots.
> there is no reason for a basic income to contribute to inflation.
It's going to be hard to argue with you if you actually believe this.
Because I can fucking do what I want? If some retard doesn't increase rent exponentially I will.
>basic income
Not a bad idea, it's inevitable in the future once automation has begun t-
>basic income after importing the entire third world
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>I cannot even manage to take 3 weeks holiday without getting bored
But Hans, the countless shovelware simulators created to fill your inner WERK needs are just at your fingertip.
And again, like this, it is in no way financially viable. Nor economically. We here in glorious Switzerland pay around 30% on consumer good than you do. Theres no reason for this other than we can pay for it. So the Nutella you buy for 1€ costs more than double here.
If you get 700€ a month, you can bet the economy will notice this. Prices will rise.
You are a retard if you think this is anything like the industrial revolution. Industrial revolution took workforce from farms to factories and factories to corporations. Everything depended on human labor one way or another. Now we are talking about systems capable of doing almost anything a human can do and basically making human labor obsolote. You won't have any alternative after white collar is replaced by AI.