I've been doing a 'setting europe right' CK2 playthrough and while debating between 100% Reformed Germanic vs. 100% Catholic/Fraticelli/Cathar this thought came to me. It seems that without a doubt shittiest tier time of European history was during rapid onset of Christianity in the 300's to the enlightenment and mass reforms of the 1600's. During the onset the Roman empire was torn apart setting us back a millennium and a half, during the height of Christianity in the west the mud hordes marched their armies to the gates of Toulouse/Vienna and in the east the mongols raped and subjugated virtually the entire Russians/Ukranian/etc population. During this time the people were overwhelmingly illiterate and millions of Europeans were slaughtered and enslaved. My understanding is that within a century of the reformation and enlightenment we conquered the entire world.
Obviously the cult of kikery and the pedo worshippers are worse religions etc. but did Christianity cause the Dark ages?
Yep it did. Roman-greco discoveries even had to be rediscovered. Christian culture has basically produced the beta-conformist mentality that you see in western nations today. Read Nietzsche.
Austin Scott
no and no historian actually believes it
Jonathan Phillips
>still believes the "Dark Ages" meme >a fucking leaf
Jayden Morris
>What are universities
Liam Rivera
The 'Dark' in Dark Ages is a meme. During all the Middle Ages new shit was invented and discovered.
Crop field rotation, the plow, double-entry accounting and modern naval engineering are some of the good things that were invented during the 'darkest' ages of the Dark Ages.
Oliver Ross
not really no, the migration of peoples into the Roman empire disrupted industry and cut off continental trade. These people didn't know where they could find resources and it took time for them to establish new industries. The vikings did a lot to reconnect northern europe with global trade and iron industries in Europe flourished in the middle ages like never before. The invention of crucible steel was actually more important than the discovery of iron 2000 years earlier.
Andrew Young
You know it's called the "Dark Ages" because the lack of information written down from that era 800 AD- 1500 AD? This was mainly due to the fall of the Western Roman Empire, due to horrible debt, leaders, conquering too much land and not be able to contain it all, etc...
Thomas Cruz
Only in the sense that Christians and jews within the Roman Empire corrupted from within. The "Dark Age" was caused by the fall of Rome and the power vacuum that followed. The Christian monks were historians during that time,
Benjamin Nelson
Nice reformist propagabda there. That stupid picture in the OP is not how the Dark Ages looked. They didnt have fuckin rotting corpses hanging in the middle of town squares, and the Catholic Church wasn't going around burning and slicing whomever they wanted.
Even during the black death, art and society thrived and the government managed to maintain perfect order throughout the turmoil, and they didn't do it with an iron fist.
The Church didn't cause the Dark Ages you blue pilled pussies. I bet Shakespeare was black too wasn't he, faggots.
Thomas Johnson
Also, the Dark Ages are called such because the Center of Europe shifted from the Med to Central and North Europe. Italy and Greece were constantly raided by Muslims.
Italy and the Christian Meds really lived Dark Ages, but Europe in general continued to develop at increasingly faster rates.
tl;dr Dark means Muslim related violence in South Europe
prove me wrong
Colton Bennett
>The 'Dark' in Dark Ages is a meme.
>>still believes the "Dark Ages" meme
I know it's cool to be edgy and all but 200-400 & 1600-1800 each on their own exponentially outpace innovation and progress than the 1,200 years between them.
Xavier Brooks
this
/thread
David Scott
...
Thomas Hughes
300 - 400 and 1600 - 1700 produced more innovation/inventions/colonization than the 1200 years between them. I'm a rural white Canadian brought up in a non-religious town. Not particularly biased.
Islams control of the sea isolated europe and made naval transport of goods almost impossible (it took far longer with carriage and obviously you could bring far less than on a ship).
Colton Phillips
...
Eli Smith
>this It's amazing how many people don't know this. A "dark" age means we don't really know what happened due to the lack of recorded human history during that time period. There have been several "dark" ages across many cultures. It's because it's a "dark" area to our historical knowledge, not because dark=bad
Kayden Allen
>ignores Leonardo and the Renaissance and all the architecture benchmarks invented in Italy >ignores the Persian-'Muslim'-Zoroastrian Golden Age >Ignores the invention of Universities >Ignores all the agricultural revolutions >Ignores all the engineering revolutions >Ignores all the invention of cannons and guns, which enabled the Euros to rule the world >Ignores the invention of modern accounting, without it we couldn't run a medium-big business >Ignores the invention of banks and modern credit and interest rates >Ignores Occam >Ignores the invention of modern civil law (Justinian) >Ignores Magna Charta >Ignores the development of all the modern European languages >ignores more I don't remember now
Elijah Moore
>Did Christianity cause a period of time that we knew very little about and thus referred to as the "dark age" until we discovered more about the era recently and realized there was no dark age?
Found the christcuck. Man up and defend your shit or i'll work to destroy it. I'm now almost fully convinced Christianity is Europe's greatest weakness. I'm not an atheist.
Henry Lopez
see see
Kevin Cruz
Athiest Logic:
>dark ages were cause of that evil christian religion
Reality:
>dark ages were cause of manic decentralization within Europe from the fall of the Roman Empire and constant warring states
Elijah Sanders
Alright then 400-1500. You're naming off inventions that came after the reformation and right before the enlightenment. You're only backing up what i've been saying.
Jayden White
You'd be surprised. Also forgot to mention the Vatican played a big part, by teaching and writing Latin in all their books, but not teaching the poor how to speak/write the language. Still, it's not like the Black Plague overtook Europe for 800 years.
Jace Parker
Christianity made the WRE weak. My premise is that it wouldn't have fallen without the desert Jew religion infesting it, at least largely in part.
Luke Long
>Roman Empire falls >The institution that tries to maintain orders and is the only thing copying old text is to blame for a dark age >Even though Achitecture, Iron/Steel working, tactics, shipmaking kept evolving >With at most losing some tech from the Romans like Cement.
When will this meme end?
Aiden Richardson
First post, best post.
Ian Diaz
see I've noticed you guys keep using the same two arguments and you all ignore my rebuttal to them both.
Easton Cruz
>Germanics already making up most of the WRE Army >Most emperors last 2-5 years if they are lucky and are replaced by a plucky German general till he gets replaced via conquest >Germanic, Slavic and Far East Tribes already migrating >RELIGION IS TOTATLY TO BLAME GOYS
Logan Collins
No, the spread of Islam into the mediterranean disrupted lines of communication and trade well into the middle ages.
Brayden Edwards
>Germanics already making up most of the WRE Army This wasn't the case until the >muh diversity weak ass Christianity infested the Empire. No?
Luke Mitchell
>Still ignores Justinian >Still ignores Occam >Still ignores crop field rotation >Still ignores the plow >Still ignores 'Muslim'-Persian Golden age >Still ignores guns and cannons >Still ignores naval engineering >Still ignores Universities >Still ignores Magna Charta >Still ignores all the modern languages >Still ignores accounting >Still ignores banks and credit
Just admit you're a leaf.
Oliver Lopez
Islam came two centuries after the fall and didn't gain prominence until nearly half a millennium afterwords.
Dylan Lewis
Except the ERE embraced Christianity more wholly and lasted 1000 years longer.
The WRE fell due to being the economically weaker of the 2 halves, being unable to fund a standing army and relying on mercenaries, mass migration due to the huns pushing barbarian tribes into its borders, and constantly inept leadership.
Zachary Scott
Your premise has no evidence to support it. That is why you are being ignored. Its obvious you have not read on the reasons for the decline of Rome
Dylan Watson
>200-400
Nolan Barnes
I never said there weren't any inventions during the 1,200 year absolute reign of Cuckianity all I said was that the innovations both in 200-400 and 1600-1800 each outpace the 1,200 years between them by an order of magnitude. As I said in my OP within 100 years of ditching the cult of absolute Christianity we conquered the entire world.
Dylan Walker
>Christianity made the Western empire weak >But not the equally Christian eastern empire that lasted 1000 years longer and remained the single most powerful nation at the time >It's definitely not because stupid snowniggers kept invading the empire and sacking rome congrats, you're fucking retarded
Brandon Lewis
Another claim without no evidence to support it?
Jackson Harris
Also Italians aren't considered white in virtually all of Canada. The more you know.
Nolan Barnes
It was the case before it dumbass.
After Trajan when they reached the Apex of the Empire, Rome had to cut corners everywhere. Having to give up provinces, even the ones that provided gold and give more local autonomy and concede to Generals just a mere 100 years after Trajan.
Grayson Edwards
>muh diversity weak ass Christianity Got some proof the Christians were doing anything like that faggot?
Leo James
Don't confuse Christianity with Catholicism.
Nicholas Collins
The issue is that the point of intellectual thought in the middle wages was not to control the world around you but to interpret it/understand it. This is much less related to religion than you might think, as most early scientists were as religious as you can get.
Julian Perez
Also no major technological, legislative or militaristic development happened in Rome in the ending period of the Empire.
Landon Sanders
Once the portion that became the Byzantine Empire became Christian they consecutively lost land and never regained territory until it disappeared off the map.
Angel Roberts
The "fall of rome" wasnt that major of a blow. Rome had "fallen" a few times before but always recovered.
The tax system and institutions it created all still existed even if a formal roman government ceased to rule it.
It was the islamic expansion in the 600 and 700s and the pirates they flooded the mediterannean with that turned the hellenic civilizations into islands onto themselves.
Also the "byzantines" called themselves romans and ruled as christians fir another 1000 years.
Ethan Brown
ERE embraced christianity before the WRE and it flourished for another 1,000 years. Hell, Constantine even changed his military banner to the cross because it apparently was helping them win against all the enemies surrounding them
Eli Lee
>Rome had "fallen" a few times before but always recovered. Not until Christianity infested the Empire. Again you all have only backed up my argument.
Ryan Robinson
>200-400 Nigga what THE FUCK are you talking about?
Colton Harris
Right. Rome was still doing pretty good in 200 AD
Luke Nguyen
Once the portion that became the Byzantine Empire became Christian they consecutively lost land and never regained territory until it disappeared off the map. I hate repeating myself.
Joshua Gonzalez
200 was the height of rome but the french faggots will never admit it
Charles Long
No.
It was the barbaric invasions
Ayden Rivera
>Judaic religions approach Europe
Man the Middle East really fucked up your continent. Why aren't you reclaiming your earthy folk religions?
Jayden Baker
>ditching Christianity in 1600 >ignores that entire Europe had been ultra Christian conservative up until the 1930s >ignores that we didn't 'ditch' Christianity, but we got the Church out of politics, which happened gradually since the year 1000 through long eternal wars, especially in Germany, France and Italy
Listen, if you leaves are like this I'd prefer to be considered black than white
Kayden Allen
Tribes that were 10-20% the population of just mainland italy. They won because they weren't Christian and thus weren't sissified? Is that what you're saying?
Mason Howard
The first 200 years after the fall of Rome was a more a transition period for Europe. What a lot of people don't realise is the fall of Rome was the equivalent of a nuclear apocalypse today. But after about the first 200 years human civilisation continued as normal, the only major difference is people didn't look after their bodies as much as the Romans did
Lucas Thompson
Read my last sentence retard.
Chase Morgan
>religiosity surges >all the works of mankind are set back for at least 1000 years
> consecutively lost land >ever regained territory until it disappeared off the map.
READ A BOOK NIGGER
Adam Torres
ditching absolute Christianity, you deleted that word for a reason you slimy faggot
Ethan Perez
What has any of this got to do with technological progress? What in the name of fuck are you faggots referring to? Like, can you at least provide examples of this "unprecedented innovation"?
Adrian Johnson
wew lad
Grayson Parker
One the land that became the Byzantine Empire became Christian they consecutively lost land until it disappeared. Nobody disputes this.
Joseph Wilson
Right, nothing to do with their ally collapsing and constant invasions by turks, arabs, and other unruly sorts, no it was purely because they started praying under a cross.
I bet you also think they persecuted scientists, don't you?
Ayden Roberts
Everyone keeps saying the tiny ass barbarian tribes killed Rome and my premise is they were able to do this because mainland Italy was cucked by Christianity. We're talking about tribes that were 10-20% of the population loosely organized with shit tier weapons.
Logan Campbell
Sorry but you made up the term right now. Wtf is absolute Christianity. You should have written political Christianity/Theocracy. Stop doing damage control fake white.
You don't know shit. You're an honorary black. welcome to the club, at least you deserve it.
Sebastian Foster
They won precisely because they weren't christian and the enemies were
Jaxson Hernandez
So many people trying to blame Islamic invasions to fit their xenophobic narrative. Those invasions also left behind advancements in medicine, math, optics, and architecture. Christianity threw out much of the knowledge that had been gained from the Greeks and early Romans because they were considered polytheistic heathens by the church.
Ethan Mitchell
>Emperor Justinian >Replusing the Bolgars retaking the coast up to the mouth of the Danube >Repulsing the Slavs >Crimea >Fighting push and pull battles with the Sassaninds and Kebabs >Being the most technologically advanced empire in the region
Leafs should be gassed.
Caleb Jones
You deleted a word and then tried to quote me you slimy faggot. Every Italian i've met does shit like this it's in your genes I guess.
Isaiah Baker
Your premise is also retarded and you're wrong.
Tyler Morales
No if anything the church was one of the few places of knowledge during the dark ages. The dark ages where caused by the fall of western Rome and the plague.
Cameron Stewart
They not only gained back a large portion of the western empire under justinian, they also had to deal with the brunt of Islamic invasion afterwards which slowly wittled away their lands over time. Constantinople was considered the city of world's desire throughout the middle ages, and it's fall in 1453 and the subsequent fleeing of Greek scholars and knowledge to the west to escape the ottomans led to the rennasiance, and that was all under the sign of the cross.
Their are also many other complex reasons as to why the Eastern empire fell, but you'll just ignore them and spout 'muh cucktianity' so I'll spare the effort and just call you a faggot instead.
Also you ignored this so now you are a double faggot and a triple nigger.
Isaiah Hall
NOBODY WILL ADDRESS THIS CHRISTKEKS BTFO
Leo Reyes
Not an argument. Nobody will address it directly because they knows it's true.
Austin Young
Christianity was merely a factor. Other factors include a significant temperature drop and piracy in the Mediterranean Sea by muslims. The break up of the roman empire as well of course
Jaxon Hill
I answered this shit three times faggot. Once the land that became the Byzantine Empire became Christian they consecutively lost land until it disappeared.
Search the last 10 words that's the fourth time i've had to repeat myself.
Adam Morales
>10-20% of the Population >Forgetitng that ethnic romans were very few >Forgetting a lot of Roman teritory was semi autonmous regions or regions that only had one good city and the rest was wildreness inhabited by non romanized tribes >Forgetting that Roman generals who became Emperors used mercenaries or recruited forigners or barely romanized Auxilas and then let them stay in Rome
Nice try leaf.
Adam Murphy
We were saying the height of Rome's power and influence was between 200 BC - 400 AD. They invented plumbing for one, do your really want to go into what the Roman Empire contributed to future societies? Fucking frog.
Asher Johnson
'absolute' was an empty adjective with no meaning. I edited it because it was not important. I don't care you meant 'political', it wasn't clear at all.
You're a monkey. Officially honorary black. Ready for your new cock? It will be sent by mail to your house tomorrow with a melanin enhancing kit.
fuck you primate.
Carson Flores
The tribes that cucked Rome were 10-20% of the population of just the Italian mainland. They were able to do this because their enemies were cucked by Christianity and the tribes were not.
Jordan James
Except they became Christian even before the WRE and gained back the majority of the land of the WRE after the fall of Rome under Justinian, you triple faggot, quaduple nigger cuck.
Get Jamal's cum out of your eyes and fucking read.
Eli Flores
Pluming existed before the Empire, since the time of the Republic and nearby cultures also had pluming. Difference being some used clay pipes while romans used lead which made them a bit loopy.
Jonathan Jones
Actually, it's because of traveling missionaries and friars that we didn't have to rediscover EVERYTHING. They not only retained writings from the Roman empire and spread them with their missions
Zachary Reyes
They took back 12 cities which fell in less than 10 years. Hardly an argument considering in the end they were wiped off the map and genocided by the turks.
Leo Wilson
>They took back 12 cities which fell in less than 10 years. Hardly an argument considering in the end they were wiped off the map and genocided by the turks.
America please annex leafland and gas them.
Joshua King
There was more innovation/invention/progress in 300-400 and 1600-1700 each than the entire 1,200 of absolute Christianity between them.
Gabriel Moore
Not an argument gypo.
Luis Foster
>christianity >dark ages
no, catholicism
Gavin Green
>I know it's cool to be edgy and all but 200-400 & 1600-1800 each on their own exponentially outpace innovation and progress than the 1,200 years between them. >200-400 >innovation >during the collapse of rome
nigger you are fucking retarded. everyone was too busy either being taxed to the point of starvation, pillaged by germanics, or dying from plagues to innovate. the western roman empire was literally falling apart from the inside out during this period.
there was no fucking innovation until the whole thing finally collapsed and the "dark ages" incidentally began. after that there was plenty of innovation that you're too stupid to look up on your own. here's a few examples of shit that was improved upon during the so called dark ages: >catapults >farming >boats >smithing >crossbows >mills >trebuchets >glassmaking and many more if you actually look this shit up.
Joshua Wilson
I'll gladly sign up for it. Your country is more intelligent and civilized than these faggots, we should just clear the land and let you come here, and send you kebabs to remove on a regular basis.
Andrew Harris
First comment that actually makes sense. I agree with this. I should have drawn a distinction as that's what I meant.
Jack Foster
Not true. The most noteworthy muslim invasion to produce any scientific advancements was in Spain, and the muslims were more backwards and illiterate than the people they conquered. The ones who were treated best were those that could read and write, primarily so they could teach the invaders. The Germanic kingdoms that settled those lands before them already had a culture of learning from what the Romans left behind.
Imagine if a bunch of Nigerians occupied Japan tomorrow, and a decade later a new Japanese smartphone comes out. Are you going to say the Nigerians made huge advancements to the world's technology? And we keep telling you this: >They were able to do this because their enemies were cucked by Christianity Is wrong and has no bearing on anything factual. What do you mean they were "cucked"? What, they just stopped fighting? There was a sudden change in thought that took Rome at it's height down to nothing instantly? That the decrepit, corrupt, and overstretched empire who's military was largely run by selfish opportunists, traitors, and non-romans, with emperors who were literally retarded would just easily deflect anything else?
That Rome was so powerful and great and stable that the only thing to stop it was christianity?
Explain to me then how the early crusades had so much success, considering how far away they were from their homes and that it was a Christian cause?
Chase Davis
>nigger you are fucking retarded. Oh yeah well you're a 61% nigger president mongrel 5/8 babies born to non-europeans cunt.