Was this the worst Expanded Universe installment...

Was this the worst Expanded Universe installment? Even the Vong plotline and the 7 million Organa/Solo children made more sense than this, to me.

The legacy era novels were horrid because of its stupid plot that rehashed the conflict Coreilla and its allies against the Galactic Alliance to become a mix of the clone wars and the galactic civil war. The Jacen going evil was pretty stupid since he learned nothing from his grandfather's story.

Mara Jade is also pretty shitty.
>no personality
>elite badass master assassin because _____
>falls in love with luke because _____
>becomes a jedi master because _____
>constantly asserts her no-nonsense im a strong independent wimyn who doesnt need a man attitude

Insufferable as fuck.

Hey remember that time Han got Leia to marry him by zapping her with a hypnosis gun and kidnapping her so he could give her Dathomir (which he owned because lol Sabacc) as a present?

I thought the whole "owning Dathomir" was the equivalent to owning the deed to the Brooklyn Bridge.

You can talk shit about CoPL but Zsinj is the best SW villain and nothing in either EU will ever top the Wraith Squadron trilogy.

>the worst Expanded Universe installment
That would be Jedi Prince

I can't deny that it introduced some great characters (Zsinj) and had an actual impact on the canon (introduction of Nightsisters), but the courtship plotline itself was stupid.

Holy shit I remember some of these books...not that image though.

So explain; why is Leia Cyclops'ing Trioculous while Moff Hissa watches?

She's an LMD iirc

Jedi Prince is literal fucking nonsense

I bid you all Dark Greetings!

Back to your cancerous general

My school library had the whole series. They were shit but as a 10 year old who loved SW and wasn't ready to read Zahn's work or any of that, they were a blessing.

Zorba is the shit, too. Totally dumb, but awesome.

Is that bad? I've always like the imagery though. I like Luke's vader vampire look.

that was the point, with all of his knowledge, once you cross the line, you finally truly understand, and having not crossed it before, that was the entire point, you can be told a million times about something but not really understand without going through it yourself.

I agree the civil war was a rehash but in a lot of ways the war itself made a lot of sense and was different from anything before because Luke was fighting his nephew with the entire order that he grew up in and made for a much more different situation than when it was with his father.

It was handled badly in the end of both though.

What's wrong with Dark Empire?

If you're a massive EU fan I guess you could be mad about fanfic continuity not being in line with other fanfic continuity but I'd take Dark Empire over most of the rest. All of the characters act in-character and actually have something to do in the story and it's one of the only EU stories that seems to understand that Star Wars is space fantasy and not shitty sci-fi. Plus the art is stellar.

I certainly hope this is as bad as it gets, it was pure shit but it's some of the only Legends I've read so far and doesn't fill me with hope.

Which one had the glove of Darth Vader.
What was up with that

As we all know, Dark Empire was made before the prequels. The Chosen One shit meant that Vader had to stop Sheev once and for all, so clones and lingering souls are no go.

Still better than TFA. I'll take Sheev's keikaku again over some copycat shitters

>What's wrong with Dark Empire?
That bizarre colouring for a start. Stupid artsy crap. And then there's the plot, innit.

> All of the characters act in-character
Eh, the dialogue is far more in-character than the new Marvel stuff, I'll give you that. But it's not all dialogue I can imagine the actors saying. But words aside, Luke's actions don't seem the slightest bit in character and his whole plot is the daftest shit.

>The Jacen going evil was pretty stupid since he learned nothing from his grandfather's story.

Same with TFA. It should have been set many more generations later to make any sense.

thats not crystal star

[s]she literally wrote in were-wolves, and fucking spelled it wyrewolf or some retarded shit[/s]

i have got to stop posting with so little sleep, i cant fucking think/type

nothing and I mean nothing will ever top Waru for sheer ridiculous

I already forget the name of the trilogy it was so lame...
It was like the Bosnia of the EU.

rebel dream and rebel stand (the fighter pilot / wraith infiltration of coruscant) in the vong plotline are probably my favorite EU things ever

Yes, but it's funny, because at the time it felt great. Back then, we were so starved for Star Wars that anything was great.

Or make the fake Vader a total stranger only trained in the dark side

What use is a time gap when when ghost Anakin can always show up to say "shoo shoo"

Which of course they completely ignored in TFA

God TIE Tanks were stupid.

Reminder that even the absolute worst stuff that was in Legends is still better than the current Disney canon crap.

I thought it was really cool as a kid for some reason. Clones of Palpatine does seem silly now, though.

Yuuzhan Vong

that was a young adult series. i had every/read everyone of those when i was in second grade. think they are still in my old attic at my parents house. ended up the glove wasn't darth vaders. case closed.

I read Tales of the Jedi comics and loved them, what are some other stuff like it with similar art?

None of it matters, Disney said so.

>>no personality
>>elite badass master assassin because _____
>>falls in love with luke because _____
>>becomes a jedi master because _____
None of that is true.

In fact she had a great reason for falling in love him, she'd been forced to become obsessed with him due to Palpatine's sway on her mind.

No, that would be the Dîsneyverse.

Is heir to the empire any good?

>Is heir to the empire any good?

Novels are alright. Comic adaptations are too condensed so everything is real spontaneous and clumsy (so in that regard, Dark Empire reads better as a comic because it was written to be a comic).

Mara Jade is really bad in the Thrawn Trilogy, where she was introduced.

>The Emperor's super duper secret badass personal assassin who was so cool no one ever heard of her and also she was in the movies but hiding in the background so you didn't know she was there but she was totally there.

Her romance with Luke is pretty bad. And Luke himself is pretty bad; written like cardboard. There are weird elements that are too fantasy, even for Star Wars, like Wraiths and shit, but some of the ideas are kinda neat, like the Ysalamari lizards that can cancel all force powers. They're silly but give the non-Jedi characters a fuckin chance.

There are unresolved plotlines in it, like all this shit with Bothans and secret plans and stuff that never goes anywhere; apparently it was all a lead-in to another set of books I didn't want to read.

Thrawn-himself feels really distinct, even if his rapport with Pelleon gets obnoxious after a while (they were going for a Holmes and Watson thing, but it was the bad sort of Watson that's a fuckin idiot and has to constantly ask questions for audience benefit). He does feel 100% distinct from Palpatine as a main villain and his methods are less strongarm and more subterfuge, even when he's trying to copy some of Palpatine's tactics that worked (but he needs a Jedi to make them work).

Joruus and Luuke were kinda shit, but we got lightsaber fights out of them and Star Wars requires those.

The Thrawn Trilogy and the Dark Empire Trilogy read like SHIT in tandem, though, because they were written independently of each other and at almost the same time, both intended to be Episodes 7-9 when they were created, so you end up with this huge disconnect between them.

Star Wars should just have embraced the multiverse concept beyond Infinities and those joke Tag and Bink stories, instead of erasing tons of stuff, some of which was really good, for new stuff that isn't even good.

I love Mara, but everything else you put, I can respect the way you saw it. I think I like it for exactly those reasons.

Except the Ahoska bit. She never comes close to being as competent as either Obi-Wan or Anakin, she just comes close to being a Knight by the end, tested and refined by the war, and as this isn't an anime or some shit the gap isn't so wide between characters (unless you are Sheev) that you can draw a clear divider in skill and ability. If anything, I was actually more annoyed at how much of a challenge Barriss gave him late on. But we also got to see a few examples of Anakin 'unleashed' towards the end that were always good.

I thought it was a beautiful testimony to his training that she so readily handled the Inquisitors like children in Rebels. She was, in a way, Anakin's legacy in the Rebellion, in defiance of Darth Vader.

Ignore the suits, and take it that way. I do. I consider them two different and equally valid canons, especially considering they are still selling the Legends stuff.

Ghost Anakin could literally show up 25,000 years later and say shit.

The whole point of the GFFA is that it has reached pretty much peak civilization; there are still poor people, nobody is turning into energy beings (except Jedi) as part of a bullshit process of evolution, and technology has reached a point where the only advances to be made are sideways rather than forward, because it's now a matter of technique how you travel FTL or blow up a planet or take over the galaxy, not a question of whether you can do it.

In a setting like that, story comes down not to the grand sweeps but the individual plays, because literally any plot device is a mcguffin. Strangely, Star Wars is more character focused than almost any other series, simply because it has already established all the worldbuilding crap and doesn't need to waste time on it.

And the thing about individuals is, they make mistakes. They choose things counter-intuitively to the crowd. Some of them act impulsively, especially if this runs in the character of one or more of their parents or grandparents.

I think you might have me confused with someone else who was talking about the Clone Wars cartoon. I've only read the Thrawn Trilogy and Dark Empire Trilogy; didn't watch the Clone Wars cartoon because I have little interest in Prequel era stuff.

>but some of the ideas are kinda neat, like the Ysalamari lizards that can cancel all force powers. They're silly but give the non-Jedi characters a fuckin chance.
No. That was some of the worst parts of Star Wars.

Sorry user, linked wrong.

And I can't find who I was talking to. Oh god, am I going insane?

>Thrawn does feel 100% distinct from Palpatine as a main villain and his methods are less strongarm and more subterfuge

To elaborate on that, Clone Palpatine in the Dark Empire Trilogy was fuckin boring because his schemes were just constant repeats of the Death Star. Shit like the Galaxy Gun or those World Engine things. Just an endless string of planet-busters. Like, if it didn't work the first or second time, why are you doing it a third, fourth and fifth time?

In that regard, Dark Empire was like The Force Awakens.

Also, Empire's End sucks as the last installment in the trilogy for a wide array of reasons; partly for lacking Cam Kennedy as the artist (who was the real selling point for the first two installments) but also for being cut back to just 2 fuckin issues to wrap things up. And the way Palpatine is killed "for good" is the wrong kind of stupid, even by Star Wars standards.

Both the Thrawn Trilogy and Dark Empire have their problems in the worst ways, but Dark Empire is so much worse on all fronts.

The Space Chameleons or whatever those things were wind up only making sense thanks to the prequels and the midochlorian retcon. The lizards emit some sort of pheromone or something that disrupts/nullifies that bacteria that gives Jedis their superpowers.

But that's not really a compliment. Those things were stupid. Talon Karde was stupid.

>in-character
Luke has a personality? When did that happen?

>current year
>not replacing an F35's wings with trads and calling it a tank

The best part of the Dark Empire comics was that there were Ewoks among the Rebels. Like, out in space, piloting ships and everything.

I fuckin loved that. But that's it.

>The Space Chameleons or whatever those things were wind up only making sense thanks to the prequels and the midochlorian retcon

Zahn only put those slugs in because he didn't give a shit about The Force and wanted to deal with it as little as possible. He wanted to write military fiction instead of Star Wars, which is why Joruus is an afterthought Staurday Morning Cartoon villain and the Stormtroopers suddenly became badass noscope space operators right out of an 80's sci-fi paperback.

I totally get why people love those books, but their weird obsession with "legitimising" Star Wars by turning it from Flash Gordon to Legend of the Galactic Heroes always annoyed me, as though Star Wars somehow needs to "grow up" by becoming something it never actually was.

But that's jsut me.

>Shit like the Galaxy Gun or those World Engine things. Just an endless string of planet-busters. Like, if it didn't work the first or second time, why are you doing it a third, fourth and fifth time?
>In that regard, Dark Empire was like The Force Awakens.
Frankly, I think it makes way more sense for the First Order to do it than Clone Palpatine. They're basically a bunch of failed officers who want to go back to the "glory days" of the Empire, and repeating as obviously flawed a plan as the Death Star illustrates that. It's their nationalism and nostalgia blinding them to reality.

Yeah, but then he adds shit like the Wraiths, that are straight outta fuckin DnD. So he put some crappy fantasy elements in there.

>Also, Lando invented hot chocolate in the Star Wars universe.

> So he put some crappy fantasy elements in there.

I really think he only put that stuff in because he would occasionally remember that he was writing a Star Wars novel and go "Uh I should put magic or some shit in this part I guess, here I go." amnd half-heartedly add those elements in out of obligation.

In some ways the Hand of Thrawn books were better handled because they had pretty much no Force or magic in them at all, they were pure political thrillers. Which again, annoyed me on a personal level but I can't deny that not having to pretend to give a shit about the magic parts of Star Wars didn't make it easier for Zahn.

Yeah, that makes a little more sense.

The Crimson Empire trilogy tried to clean up the Clone Emperor stuff by saying that it wasn't REALLY Palpatine but a defective copy that went insane, hence why he kept clinging to those bad ideas. Of course, that doesn't make sense because we actually SEE Palpatine's fucking ghost jumping from body to body so we know he wasn't just some malfunctioning copy, but at least they tried.

Still disappointed Jainia and Zekk did not end up together. Those young jedi books were my first.

I think you're all forgetting this masterwork.
>for people that thought the politics in TPM were too exciting
>also we Dino Planet now

>The Wraiths will NEVER EVER be reintroduced into the canon.

>understand that Star Wars is space fantasy and not shitty sci-fi.

Dude I've been calling Star War's "Science Fantasy" for years. Glad someone else sees it that way, it takes after fantasy universes in a lot of ways.

I love SW politics. I would love if we got a book like this in the new canon

How about that one time really late in the EU where they failed to realize the super trippy Mortis stuff from TCW was meant to be a giant metaphor and tried to actually make it a super big important thing that's at the center of like everything and everything bad goes back to Anakin refusing to replace the Father.

>Stupid artsy crap
I'll cut u, m8

Zahn is an incredibly overrated author and Thrawn definitely is the only reason to read his books. Poor Chiss bastard has to pull the weight of a mountain of shit writing behind him.

That being said, he still does it, and he does it well. Thrawn might be my favorite Star Wars character of all, and he came very, VERY close to bringing the Empire back into power.

I personally didn't hate Mara; she was very bland and generic, but tolerable. What killed me on her was the legions of drooling fanboys who jacked off to her and the "fans" of Star Wars (who'd maybe seen half of one movie or at least A New Hope) who started cheering about how good of a feminist role model she was and how she was such a badass female don't-need-no-man hero.

Her death to the Solo kid was so poorly written, but I liked it solely for the fact that it pissed so many people off, especially those who called her dying "sexist".

The Clone Palpatine saga could've been redeemed if it was done better. Ignoring the fact that it fucked up the whole Darth Vader redemption thing, it was a cool idea; the strongest Sith ever suddenly returns and tries to reunite the Empire. Republic shits its pants. What are we gonna do now!?!

But it was so anti-climactic in the end. Luke turns evil for reasons unexplained, joins Palpy, Palpy gets a super star dreadnought that's probably the most powerful ship ever built, and he loses; why?

''because luke and leia use the light side of the force to block his force power so the eclipse begins blowing up and they stroll out unopposed as if nothing happened''

then he comes back with ANOTHER Eclipse to do the SAME shit, and loses. Why?

''because r2 goes inside and tells the ship to crash and it does and he strolls out like nothing happened and palpatine dies and the entire plotline is over''

I know I'm skimming some details here, but overall, Dark Empire was a classic example of a somewhat workable concept being ruined by shitpoor execution and an author too rushed to write good conclusions to his stories.

"A Galaxy Gun, Palpatine, two Eclipses, Empire resurgent, evil Luke... Shit, I only got 5 minutes left. Both ships blow up Gun blows up Luke's good the end."

>Stupid artsy crap

Wasn't this literally because the artist was trying to cover up the fact that he had developed some eye condition that made it diffcult for him to make out colours in general?

Don't forget:

>Ghost Palpatine only has one bodyswap left on his Bodyswap Repeat Customer Card, so he tries to jump into Luke but OH NO dying deformed Jedi midget jumps in front of the ghost and absorbs him and that's how Palpatine dies for good and oh god this is so fucking dumb

Empire's End was just the worst.

They were never completely canon though.

It's an android the rebels sent in her stead.

>especially those who called her dying "sexist"
Pretty ironic since it was a female writer who killed her off.

I hope we aren't pretending that TFA is a better continuation of the story than the EU.

The Expanded Universe as a whole was really bad about pussifying Palpatine and Vader.

Vader loses almost every fight he's involved in and Palpatine loses to the most contrived shit.

>10 years old
>Watch episode 6
>Huh I wonder what happened after it
>Read Glove of Darth Vader

You are right. The Vong and Luuke is SO much better!

>Luuke
Nothing more than a way to quickly differentiate a clone of Luke in the print medium.

>Vong
There were some amazing books in the NJO.


You haven't read any of what you're talking about though.

better than Mary-Sue and the minorities "epic"

>better than Mary-Sue and the minorities "epic"
Clearly you have never heard of Mara Jade

falseflag

TFA is terrible for reasons that have nothing to due with Sup Forums shit.

Rey was terrible, yes. But Finn's actor was fine.

>Dies
>Mary Sue

Everybody dies retard

the obvious diversity push for no reason is a reason for the poor quality
but yeah Finn was fine, awful "comedy" lines but fine

Yes, but she was defeated in combat.

Mara Jade was a major Mary Sue. Even back then morons were cheering for feminism when she was introduced. Fitting that a female author killed her off.

Difference between her and Rey is that Mara at least had a backstory that made her skills plausible.
She didn't sit around on not!Tatooine her whole life.

A female author who wanted nothing but to be assfucked by Temura Morrison.

Not to the extent of rey, she doesnt have the excuse Mara has, of being a superr good trained spy lady, rey is literally a 20 yo savant whos good at combat and ships and tech and somehow knows advanced force techniques without having training, and if she did have trining before being dumped on jakku, she was tops 6 years old and could not possibly have the powers she displayed in TFA

at least mara had training and shit that they could fall on

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you on Rey completely. But in regards to Mara, her backstory wasn't much better.

Rey: Spends life doing nothing on Notooine.
Mara: Elite assassin enforcer with no backstory or example of training, she's just there.

Not to mention the idea of Palpatine keeping some assassin enforcer around is retarded in and of itself, considering no one in the galaxy individually posed a threat to him and Vader was quick to choke out anyone who spoke against him and the Inquisitorius did the rest, but nope, we needed an assassin bodyguard because girl diversity. Then there's the fact that Palpatine didn't just kill her outright when she betrayed him, considering he was infinitely stronger than she ever was or ever became.

Had Mara Jade been a dude it still would've been retarded.

>move all erections to sector five-one-five

Explain

being an elite assassin implies extreme training and abilities, obviously.

Sith lords have a history of keeping powerful minions around them.

I think you just hate Mara Jade

No, Palpatine has a backstory. He's the Lord of the Sith, but we know why.

Mara jade is an Emperor's Hand assassin, and that's all we're told about her. Not how she got there, not how she got her power, but just that she is powerful and is there. Pretty boring.

And even feminist bloggers often commented, critically, on how much of a bitch Mara was, especially to Luke even AFTER they were married. Luke was quiet, but not a whipped pussy. He wouldn't have chopped her in half or something in anger, but he would've at least kicked her to the curb so she could face Palpatine's wrath instead of treating him like shit every chance she got.

>No, Palpatine has a backstory. He's the Lord of the Sith, but we know why.

And that took thirty years

she is boring, she was a bitch, but she at least had a thin strand of explanation, which rey doesn't have.

i dont really give half a shit about her, shes just not as much of a mary sue as Rey

now Anakin on the other hand.

Rey and Mara are on equal terms of shit.

i think you mean to say "fucking awesome"

They both suck ass, but Mara doesn't make me wanna blow my fucking head off when i think of her.

Even with its faults, I take Dark Empire over the Vong and Jacen going dark side. The latter felt like it shit so hard on Jacen's character development when the Solo family was already fucked over enough by Chewie and Anakin's death.

I don't get the dislike for Rey. She and Finn made the movie tolerable for me because they were fun to watch. It was fun seeing the old characters return but Poe and Maz sucked, some of the other newcomers were underwhelming, and the plot was neat until bigger, badder Deathstar.

Is it the "Mary Sue" thing? Because I'm tired of the overwhelming amount of protagonists who suck at everything and are terrible people for the sake of "realism"

Karen Traviss was rockhard for Boba Fett and the Mandalorians, that's why her books were lousy with them.

Thankfully, in the next series of books they promptly returned the Mandalorians as immoral shitbirds who only care about money and killing - literally have them killing innocent unarmed white girls and retarded slave elephants.

She didn't have to be terrible at everything. One thing would've been nice.

She also got her ass beat and kidnapped