As an atheist this is something that has really grinded my gears. Atheist really don't have morals. Don't let us lie to you. The reason being, without a concrete foundation that's immovable like a religion, everything is negotiable.
If you ever want to fuck up an atheist just keep asking them why something is bad. Eventually they will not have an answer and if you keep pressing they be forced to admit nihilism.
The concept of God is actually a very useful sociological tool if designed and handled the right way.
How can we construct a concrete morality without God? I don't see how it's possible.
With a Christian if you keep pressing them they will always have to fall back on scipture. Which is bullshit, but it's better than nothing at all and its immovable because it's the word of God.
So anti religion atheist, you are literally fucking up man kind by trying to destroy arguable the most useful sociological tool man has ever devised.
Natural human empathy seems to be a good place to start.
Or you could listen to a book corrupted by the Devil to achieve a false sense of moral superiority.
Whichever helps you sleep at night.
David Nelson
I suppose whatever keeps society going, though even that is subjective, or has grey areas.
Help others? Sure. Take on the refugees. Don't kill? Sure, but this guy here wants to kill me, can I kill him before he kills me? What is reasonable, what is not?
Cooper Murphy
Brb, strapping babies to my hands and feet and cartwheeling everywhere
Samuel Bennett
If society collapses, what determines law? A book stating that comitting crimes is will damn you to hell and maintaining order by sell policing is decent enough till order is restored.
Anthony Perez
Don't forget UPB, a rational proof for secular ethics
He took the nap and made it objective
Colton Diaz
anyone have that cartoon where billy is liek "I'm a god now no morals"
may have been chick
Jaxon Rogers
>As an atheist >As a blankety blank I feel bloopity bloop Fuck off
Hunter Murphy
We have to modify and reinterpret the "immovable" morality from religions because the religious laws thousands of years ago are not compatible with today. Look at the state of Islamic nations under a literal interpretation of Shariah law.
Juan Ramirez
Religious is a tool, I like that you acknowledge that, it keeps people in check.
Andrew Phillips
Morality isn't logical.
If I stand to gain resources by killing someone, and there is no realistic chance I'll be caught or that they can resist me, there is no objective reason not to do so. Same with any other crime that gives you an advantage.
Daniel Thompson
Atheist here. Ask me why anything is bad.
Elijah Bell
If you ever want to fuck up an atheist just keep asking them why something is bad. Eventually they will not have an answer and if you keep pressing they be forced to admit nihilism.
>Why is killing bad Because I hold myself to a higher standard than savagery.
>Why is rape bad Because I hold myself to a higher standard than savagery.
>Why is racism bad Because I hold myself to a higher standard than savagery.
Easy enough?
Julian Edwards
You are a fucking idiot, you know good and bad and thats all there is too it
>we need to alter and restrict the second amendment because it is incompatible with today
Jayden Taylor
>Natural human empathy Which isn't a universal trait.
Ethan Torres
Why is savagery bad?
Josiah Watson
Nothing wrong with it, I just hold myself to a higher moral standard than that.
Sebastian Young
If there's nothing wrong with it, how can you be more moral than it?
What objectively determined your 'higher moral standard?'
Robert Morris
What made you want to hold a high standard? What benefit is there to uphold that standard?
Gavin Evans
That's quite simple actually, badness is hurting someone and goodness is making someone happy.
David Howard
Why is hurting someone bad and why is making someone happy good?
Jacob Collins
Secular means neutral toward beliefs, not anti-religious. USA was always secular. Secular = Neutral. Secular =/= Atheist.
Eli Cooper
make me happy and suck my dick
Joshua Hall
Nothing objectively determined my moral standpoint, I subjectively decided that it is the right way to live.
The benefit of holding myself to a high moral standard is that as I said originally, I'm not a savage.
Michael Walker
>christfags need a fear of damnation to not be evil sacks of shit
Scary really.
Christopher Carter
NAP and UPB. its a simple argument to put down.
>why is this thing bad?
Cause it doesn't help the advancement of society and humanity. You want to kill someone outside of self defense? That wont help further the species. You want to steal shit? That is hindering the advancement of the species.
The basic biological imperative of life is to continue and advance. Anything that interferes or slows that objective can be considered "wrong".
No god needed,
Ryan Reyes
man how are we going to prevent free rape in the next years with the buffs that faggots are i think im going to buy a gun, im too cute to not be raped
Parker Cox
But that's not a benefit. You even said yourself, there's nothing wrong with savagery.
Your logic isn't even circular, it never made it all the way around.
Kayden Ross
As if religions don't bend their own rules to make morals negotiable. Give me a fucking break.
Ian Turner
>Natural human empathy seems to be a good place to start Muh feels is not an objective base for morality.
Dominic Nelson
Read Mere Christianity.
Zachary Campbell
If you're an atheist you must be a recently disillusioned Christian. Morality exists separate from religion.
Robert Torres
You saying society or even your parents had no influence on your decision?
Chase Campbell
Isn't that what you're supposed to do any way?
Ryan Gray
How is that objective? Still seems subjective to me.
The biological imperative of life is to continue and advance. That applies to itself, not at a societal level. Thus murder and theft, are conducive to the survival and advancement of myself.
Christopher Ross
>racism equals killing and rape in terms of moral standards >t. a fucking leaf ft. muh feels
Carson Rivera
A guy mugs you. You don't like the experience. You felt violated. Later in life you see some other innocent guy getting mugged. You remember how much that sucked, so yell at the mugger that you're calling the police. The mugger runs off, and you ask if the victim is gonna be alright. He thanks you for the help, and you likely feel good. You felt empathetic towards the man, and your empathy made you act upon it, resulting in you doing something that another person appreciated.
Now expand this simple fucking concept, and you have how morals are established for the individual. It's literally based on bad and good feelings.
>BUT HUMAN PERCEPTION IS NOT DEFINED. SOME PEOPLE CAN FEEL GOOD ABOUT XYZ WHEN OTHER PEOPLE FEEL BAD ABOUT IT
Yes, but luckily most humans react pretty identically to certain stuff, such as
- Other people trying to murder them - Other people trying to steal from them - Other people lying to them - Other people exploiting them - Other people doing something they appreciate for them - Other people showing acts of affections towards them - Other people being friendly towards them - Other peopel being honest with them - etc etc
So because we generally don't like to get fucked with, some of us extend that to people in general generally don't like it when other people fuck with them. Some understand it because there will be severe consequences in fucking with people, one way or another.
Cooper Young
The argument for atheism is too simple. If the world has no meaning, we should have never found out it has no meaning. Just as if the world was created and no creatures have eyes, we would never know it was dark. Darkness would be without meaning.
I once spoke to an atheist and said "the core of atheism is the world has no meaning". He said "no, it's that there is no God". And I said "no it is that the world has no meaning. A God gives the universe meaning". Atheists don't even know what the fuck they believe in lol it's hillarious really, and also quite sad.
William Kelly
Still present in the vast majority of humans
Parker Bell
>What do we replace it with?
I would expect a widespread interest in parapsychology/Near Death Experiences to work very well. The subject provides ample enough evidence strongly suggesting (not outright proving) there is an afterlife which gives our ethical actions rewards/punishments in order to convince most people to be moral, to believe in reincarnation, and that every seemingly mundane aspect of their lives has a greater purpose.
Ian Smith
>If you ever want to fuck up an atheist just keep asking them why something is bad. No. For example: Harming your society is bad
Levi Wilson
>Cause it doesn't help the advancement of society and humanity.
By your arbitrary standard, freedom is immoral.
Nathan Nguyen
Human empathy is not universal. If I got mugged, I would not stop to help someone else getting mugged. Why would I subject myself to potential mugging again?
It's you really don't have morals without old jewish fairy tales. Typical psychopathy. Murders or false lead to negative consequences and moral suffering; without any religion if you are a fully human.
Ian Richardson
nice kikery you've got there.
Take your kike tier religion back to weddit
Lincoln Nguyen
>What do we replace it with?
Morality and ethics is older than the three kike god worshipping religions.
Ethics exists independently of god, otherwise the retards who proclaim "god is good" or "ethics come from god" would be making a nonsensical proclamation.
> With a Christian if you keep pressing them they will always have to fall back on scipture.
And as we all know no two Christians have the same opinion on any topic of ethics, so that failed miserably.
Even on supposedly clear cut issues that are actually explicitly mentioned in the bible, such as prohibition against eating shellfish, or major doctrinal issues like transsubstantiation, there is no one rule, no one scripture, there is interpretation and a thousand sects and a million personal interpretations within each sect.
Alexander Sanchez
>Natural human empathy seems to be a good place to start.
>OMG that man murdered six children, my empathy for the parents makes me feel that he did bad! >but wait now it turns out the man is mentally ill and the sole provider for his family, and the police called him a nigger now I'm feeling empathy for the murderer and think they should let him go!
Empathy is a leaf in the breeze buffeted by the vagaries of human emotion and subjective perspective. It is a poor foundation for a human system of morality.
Dominic Carter
The mugging scenario served the purpose of an example, not as the definitive proof for empathy and morals.
William Watson
Interesting point, but you'd be wrong. If human empathy is so existent, why do people just stand by and watch crimes be committed?
Most people are content to be bystanders and draw no attention to themselves. That's why women are encouraged to scream Fire! when being raped, rather than Rape! because people are more likely to do something if it's a fire, than try to intervene in a crime.
Dominic Flores
>If human empathy is so existent, why do people just stand by and watch crimes be committed? Never heard of the Bystander effect?
Robert Adams
See
Blake Nelson
>relying on a leaf for anything beyond shitposting
oh fuck off, Sam Harris is not a serious contribution to this discussion
James Ramirez
Shit.
Sorry for just now getting back in here.
Good points being made. Didn't want to be >1 post by this ID
Caleb Bailey
Nihilism isn't a bad thing you fucking retard. Just because our morality is artificial in the sense that we make it up doesn't mean that it isn't useful for order in society and many other applications.
Brandon Perry
Again though. UPB is up for debate. It's negotiable.
Jordan Kelly
Rekt
Good job, I hate leafs and their stupid, nonsensical reasoning.
Never forget that "because it's 2016" is a Canadian argument made by their highest elected politician
Xavier Clark
I'm not saying religion is some special and incorruptible institution. I'm saying that at least there is a base line and if you follow it it is not negotiable in theory. I know this isn't what happens in practice, but the words are there.
Do we need a new religion? One that isn't so open to interpretation because of 2000 years of history between when it was written and how we perceive it?
Liam Baker
Exactly what I'm talking about. The Bystander effect tends to undermine the belief in human empathy. You can't rely on something so vague as empathy.
Empathy is all about emotions, an axe crazy murderer can get a pass if the media writes about him like his life is some huge sad story, especially if they underscore that the people he murdered may have been scumbags too. See
Jack Gray
Empathy is just the ability to feel or think that you feel other people's emotions, it doesn't mean you'll act a certain way in certain situations. Only psychopaths by definition can't feel empathy, and it's literally only because they're suffering brain damage.
Camden Morris
>Exactly what I'm talking about. The Bystander effect tends to undermine the belief in human empathy. No it does not. The bystander effect is independent of empathy.
Logan Powell
If people can't act on the empathy they feel for someone when something bad is happening right in front of them, how the fuck can you use that as a guiding principle for morality? It's obvious right there that it's flawed, and easily manipulable.
John Williams
Atheism is cancer
Why would
John refuse pre-marital sex? >Stds, parentless babies
Stacy marry and raise kids while giving up a potential full time career and not ride the cock carousel? >Motherless and neglected kids who are more likely to be NEETS and girls less likely to fulfill their roles in society
Jake refuse drugs? >Drugs are a problem, stop denying it you fucking degenerates
Martin refuse to lie about his company's deliveries in his reports, even if it meant a higher profit >Literally ever complaint about modern capitalism
Everyone not get away with everything they can if it fullfills their impulses >every problem with degeneracy we have
Tyrone stay home and raise his son instead of spending those 18 years doing what he wants >90% of juvenile delinquents are fatherless
every small business in the area, not collaborate to pay their workers barely anything for 70+ hours of work >Self explanatory
Unless they believe "any imaginary sky fairy" (that their societies concidentially require in order to not collapse) is watching them
Oliver Flores
thats like asking why calling a dog a dog, thats just the definition of these words. in french we even say bonheur (happiness) and malheur (unhappiness), bon for good and mal for bad.
Levi Jenkins
Empathy is not a black and white trait (having or not having it), and it certainly doesn't necessarily mean you'll act upon it.
Also, people not acting upon empathetic feelings doesn't disprove or refute the morals that are established from them. The "bystanders" would still never do it themselves, and do not wish for anyone to be murdered / mugged / raped / etc.
Jaxson Green
>If you ever want to fuck up an atheist just keep asking them why something is bad. Eventually they will not have an answer and if you keep pressing they be forced to admit nihilism
wew lad you need to try taht shit on someone who is not average-below average iq
or on someone who has actually spend some time reading.
Ryder Stewart
To be happy is not necessarily good. Niggers stealing/killing/raping makes them happy.
Samuel James
>The subject provides ample enough evidence strongly suggesting (not outright proving) there is an afterlife which gives our ethical actions rewards/punishments
Umm, what? There no proof of an afterlife.
Juan Lee
In every example that we have a history of freedom is the only thing that breeds advancement
Un-free societies have largely crumbled whilst free ones thrive. We can see this in real time with most governments really tightening the noose and their subsequent decline.
Humans are wired to survive in a community or a society. Could even call it a tribe. We are not an animal that only cares for itself like a salamander. We are the monkeys that work towards the betterment of our group, even if only subconsciously.
Yes we may be wired at the most basic level for self preservation, but that is only to allow for societal and social development. The old adage of "Cant help those around you if you do not help yourself"
Isaiah Young
I'm a fucking Satanist and I have the strongest moral backbone out of anyone I've ever met.
If it's wrong, I'm not doing it, and I sure as fuck am going to make you feel ashamed and tell you WHY it's wrong, and will oppose you, using force if necessary.
yeah blah blah blah everything is relative, this is true but most nihlists I've met have been weak cucks who wouldn't stand for anything
They're just lost little cowardly sheep with no shepherd.
Angel Baker
>If people can't act on the empathy they feel for someone when something bad is happening right in front of them, how the fuck can you use that as a guiding principle for morality? You can't use it on it's own. I was just explaining the concept.
>It's obvious right there that it's flawed, and easily manipulable. Yes, absolutely.
Gavin Reed
Its not that hard to come up with a moral code, but morality is SUBJECTIVE, not objective due to moral relativism. Even religious morality is largely subjective considering how many religious laws are disobeyed by the believers.
Hudson Long
i'm talking about true happiness senpai
Dominic Morris
Thus why would I want to base a morality system around it? It's so gameable. I'm not saying the abrahamic religions are great or anything, I just don't think anyone should find that to be their base of morality either.
Jonathan Fisher
Not at all. Consider the regulations of colonial America compared to post-industrial America. Advancement REQUIRES control over the populace, because outliers are detrimental to the system, and the system only moves in one direction. It doesn't care about freedom.
Ayden Turner
As someone who used to identify as an atheist (not sure what the fuck to think anymore), I'd say that's bullshit. There's nothing preventing me from inventing some arbitrary dogma in my head that I commit myself for its own sake.
Those who follow scripture are doing the same exact thing but putting faith into someone else's words who claims to represent God himself. I'd much rather trust knowledge and reason to create my own idea of what I'm here to do and how to conduct myself; God gave us free will and a fascination with learning for a reason.
Alexander Young
True happiness is subjective.
John Gray
>"I'm a fucking Satanist and I have the strongest moral backbone out of anyone I've ever met." >aka >"Im an huge misanthropist who could care less of the well being of people around me but I shure as hell got morals"
lool
Logan Smith
Morals are a spook pussy
Cooper Campbell
It's like humanism tried to replace religion in the public eye. It won't work, there's no system to make humanism worth it, and people are motivated by greed.
It's why Christianity can make people do charitable deeds, because they believe they'll get it all back in the end.
Humanism is selflessness for the sake of helping others, it's what Christianity at it's core aspires to, but mucks up with the whole heavenly reward business.
Luis Howard
What methods were used to uphold mortality before the three kike gods did?
William Howard
Not if they're YOUR morals.
Hudson Green
>I'm EDGY >and ANGSTY >and VIOLENT >you're a KEK SHEEP Nigga this is the internet big boy zone; 12 year olds not allowed
Landon Bell
I know this is a bit of a Utopian ideal, but I do believe that freedom would end up better then regulation even if it takes multiple generations.
Regulation works for the foreseeable and short term, freedom makes what we cant see over the horizon better
Owen Baker
Portugal confirmed for not knowing the subject matter
Satanism is extremely close to Sup Forums in it's mentality, sans all the racial stuff I don't really buy into anyway
>I took the bait
Brayden Wood
Stirner was a very minor character in philo history but every 16 year old hipster memer loves to bring him up
William Sullivan
Right, but moral absolutism is retarded Define right and wrong
Josiah Bennett
>In every example that we have a history of freedom is the only thing that breeds advancement What is "advancement" and why is it good?
Zachary Martin
Formations of universal justice can be arrived at through non-theistic means. Just not justice that one cannot escape through deception.
Which does lead theistic justice as superior.
Adrian Rogers
Depends on what you mean by 'better.'
Scientific advancement requires progressively more control. Tax money, regulations to control behavior so as not to disrupt the existing system. Most people go along with unfulfilling, relatively safe lives when the alternative is true freedom and risk. Even the rich pursue unhappiness; when you don't have any immediate control over your life, you get depressed. That's why it's a trope that nobles are bored and listless.
Owen Nelson
Not trying to be edgy here but, I'm sure I'll be accused of it.
For what reason should I care about the well being of people around me? They don't do anything for me. Is there a reason to care?
>inb4 b-b-b-but user don't you want to be a decent human being?
No. Not unless it provides me gains. I really only care about getting ahead, and spending my words and time for others who will never benefit me makes it a complete waste.
The only person I'm watching out for is myself, my wife, and my immediate family to a small degree. The rest of the world can burn, I really don't care.
Jonathan Lewis
sage for Christcuck shill
Sup Forums is NOT a kike on a stick board
Adam Thomas
>If it's wrong,
How do you what's wrong? Can you prove that it's wrong?
Liam Green
lol butthurt
Isaac Martinez
No, you're not a Satanist, you just lack social skills. That's it.
It's a big subject that I don't have the energy to get into, so I apologize for not being much help. Follow this link if you want to bother reading into it. You'll probably just come to the conclusions you came in with.
>Thus why would I want to base a morality system around it? It's so gameable.
You wouldn't use JUST empathy. It IS gameable. It's totally lacking without any sort of afterlife system or benevolent universal guide.
>It's why Christianity can make people do charitable deeds, because they believe they'll get it all back in the end.
This is basically what it comes down to. If there is no afterlife there's just no strong point in being ethical. Altruism for its own sake can and almost always will make a person happier than being a selfish nihilist in the end, but it's not an easy sell to non-philosophers or non-psychologists, so you can't reliably build a society based on it.
Caleb Rivera
Humans have functioned and succeeded because of reciprocal altruism, IE help when it will be reciprocated (or if you just feel like helping)
If the hand can be returned, or it makes you feel good, then it is good.
If something is done that serves no purpose, or brings harm to something you don't want harmed, then it is bad.
obviously this is oversimplified but this is THE big question, naw mean
Julian Cooper
So killing dumb people is ok?
John Ross
This has been known for centuries, millennia probably, people just keep deluding themselves into thinking they they are smart and good enough to handle following a Code or Philosophy or whatever else without true faith. Human empathy evolved from Religion, whether it was snake worship or some other unknown even older form of belief, was what instilled empathy. People seem to think that empathy itself just sprouted up from nothing when all of the historical sources, all of the philosophies, everything that builds our empathy, our morality, our codes, all of it comes from and was preserved by a continual advancement and evolution of religions.
