Is Wally really the best Flash?

In a media filled with failed reboots and forgotten legacy characters what made him actually stand out to the point that a large number of people consider him better than the original?

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No, Barry is the best Flash. Literally every other speedster is just cribbing the Speed Force generated by Barry.

I tried to get into the Flash during the new 52 and rebirth and found Barry boring as fuck outside a few cool moments like when he helped some girl slow down

I just don't understand the appeal

He had a really good run in the 90s. Most of the interesting things Barry does now comes from Wally originally.

Waid, out.

Go to bed, Johns

The first few issues of his new 52 run was so shit that I dropped it after around 5 issues because I had no idea what was going on or had any investment in the character because e was so boring.

The rebirth run was okay for a while but got boring with the godspeed guy. Did it get better?

Not really. The book's missing a lot of depth that I would prefer. Williamson is very dependent on exposition and I think that without a solid and detailed plan for what he's going to write, he falters very easily. But we have gotten two good one-shots. One where Wally comes in and spends some time with the new Kid Flash and the most recent issue where Black Wally deals with Tar Pit while Barry and Iris go on a date.
The Flash has a pretty loyal fanbase, so it's easier for writers to maintain readers even if the story is not appealing.

You know nothing of Johns, memester.

>Black Wally
Is he any good? I've been reading Teen Titans and he seems pretty unoffensive in it but I dropped new 52 so I don't really know anything about him

He's okay. From what I've heard, he's more developed in Titans but In Flash, he's interesting at times and I think that he has a lot of potential to become more endearing later on. I like the relationship that he has with Iris and the rest of his family. Now that he's not the main Wally West, writers can make him his own character, which is nice

wally's white again?

I think its suppose to be the same Wally from before the reboot, just like how the current Superman is the one from the old universe.

Of course that makes me kind of confused on how he also existed with the current Titans but i'm an idiot so whatever

This. The good Wally comics from the 80's on are what the TV show copies heavily. The speed force didn't even exist until Wally was the flash

>what the TV show copies heavily.
What do you mean?

The TV show adapts many things from the comics to varying degrees of accuracy. A lot of characters/themes/etc that have appeared in the TV show first appeared when Wally was main Flash after Barry was dead.

The first comic to EVER mention the speed force only came out when wally was the flash, not Barry. It literally did not exist in the comics when Barry was flash

that was bart allen

But Wally touched all of them so they got their memories back but i'm sort of confused if those were pre-current universe memories (what i'm assuming right now) or if they were friends in that universe and then he got speed forced which I don't think makes sense but I skipped out on Flash during new 52 so I might have missed something

>Most of the interesting things Barry does now comes from Wally originally.
And most of Wally's insteresings things also came from Barry.

A lot if legacy characters rely heavily on there predecessors stuff,there supporting cast,there concepts,there status quo(see miles morales,Bart Allen).Wally was different he introduced new concepts(the Speedforce,time displacement,the flash family),had his own supporting cast with new characters(Bart,Max,Jessie,Linda,Savitar,Zolomon),as well as actually developing from a goofy lady's man to a loyal friend,husband and father.He was relatable and writers like mark waid and Geoff johns were willing to experiment with new ideas and villians that gave Wally great arcs(return of Barry Allen,terminal velocity,Rogue war,Zoom),sadly at least since his return writers play it safe with Barry repeating the same old evil speedster stories while Barry himself rarely has changed.This is why I think Wally is able to stand on his own as the flash,so much of the flash mythos was introduced threw him that removing him from it feels like robbing the franchise of a major player,that's why Wally is considered by some to be THE flash while Bart was considered a TEMPORARY flash,Wally could stand on his own in ways most legacy characters cant

Not really the only thing Barry gave Wally was melodrama and Eobard Thawne who Wally fought a total of 2 times in 30 years,modern Barry has taken Wally's sidekick,his joky personality,his villains(West and Godspeed are obvious riffs of zolomon),and in the shows case his love interests,villians and youthful angle

Wally was a better Flash, and at the time there were 2 new legacy characters, Kyle and Connor.

Connor is the only one that really failed as a character, Wally and Kyle got along pretty well, and they weren't prudes like Barry and Hal, they had fun. It helped to bring forth a new generation of hero's in a cohesive and natural way, it felt right.

Before that Flash was a C list character with B list powers under Barry and became an A list character with S list powers under Wally, and his rogues were much better, they took him out of the silver age.

Not only that but Wally was the first to move from the kiddy table to the JLA as a legacy character, they all knew him since he was a kid, it was a major deal. He had to go from idolizing these unapproachable people to thinking of them as teammates that depended on him with their lives.

Wally is a very important character, the only one more important as a legacy is Dick for obvious reasons.

Except that's a dirty lie. You either haven't read Wally west flash or in denial.

/thread

Yeah no ignoring the fact that Barry making the Speedforce isn't canon anymore,Wally was the one to discover and expand everything about the speedforce

Jay Garrick is the best Flash

Johns loves Barry more than Wally, dude.

The only thing Barry is responsible for is creating Wally's insecurities. The Speed Force, The Flash Family, Wally's growth from shitlord into bona fide hero, all that stuff was done well after Barry was dead and has nothing to do with Barry.

The only thing you can really give Barry some credit for is that Wally used a good number of his villains. But they were completely remodeled for Wally's purposes and, much like everything else, they were much better as Wally villains than Barry villains.

He went from absolute garbage to, like you said, inoffensive. They basically course corrected super fucking hard and now he's a saint.

It is canon. Barry mentioned it in JLA.

You can't just solve all your problems by throwing them into the speed force.

#BarryIsTheBest

>Barry
>Even remotely close to being the best
Even Jay shits all over him.

Name one thing Barry is the best at.

Besides being boring.

They've shoved him down our throats for 6 years and didn't have an above average comic until they brought Wally back. The best comic Barry's been in is literally a comic about how Wally is the best and needed to come back.

Since everyone seems to hate Barry... how would you fix him?

You don't. Staying true to his character is his problem. People talk about how if they focused on the scientist aspect of him more it'd be more interesting but it really wouldn't, not unless you go full super genius super science shit.

He's just a lame character. They tried every fucking gimmick they could to keep him relevant in the 70s/80s and it just kept failing. There's nothing you can do to make him more interesting besides just turning him into a new character.

Which is what the show did. Turned him into a Peter Parker Wally West mashup with Barry's origin.

The best thing that ever happened to both Barry and Wally was Barry's death. Barry finally got to go out on a high note and it paved the path for massive improvement in the medium. Taking a 30 year step back has only hurt The Flash comics.

Barry's death was an A+ ending to his story -- it's a terrible middle point. And trying to ignore it by rebooting the universe like it never happened is disingenuous because people still know Barry as that boring scientist who died saving the multiverse. It's so historic that you can't escape it and it scuttles any honest character development you can imagine.

He's from this universe. There just happens to be 2 Wally Wests because DC couldn't get rid of the shitty black one without being called racist.

Which is funny because they sure as hell refuse to acknowledge killing off Wally's interracial family.

Maybe something could be done with that thing where Barry Allen is slow and methodical, taking his time and is always late, but The Flash is the Fastest Man Alive and creator and generator of the Speed Force?

Why don't they just have Barry make use of the SpeedMind thing with his scientist stuff.

>creator and generator of the Speed Force
Doing that was retarded.
If anyone should've had that role it should've been Jay.

The way I interpret Barry Allen personality-wise (especially in regards to being a speedster) is pretty much the opposite or inverse of Sonic the Hedgehog's personality.

Sonic the Hedgehog is a free spirit who does whatever he wants, whenever he wants, and follows his own rules and does what he thinks is right, and doesn't listen to anyone else's rules or what they think is right. He's like the wind, and he's always on the move, running towards the next adventure. He never looks back, he's got no regrets, 'cause time doesn't wait for him. He chooses to go his own way.

Now Barry Allen, the way I see him, is like the opposite of that. Where Sonic is a chaotic good free spirit, Barry is a forensic scientist for the police department and is more of a lawful good. He's slow and methodical, taking his time and he's always late. He's usually not impulsive in the slightest, he normally thinks things through heavily before going into action, and plans a lot of things out. And, ever since the death of his mother, he's pretty much been at a standstill for the rest of his life, stuck in that one moment and never moving on, never moving forward. Until lightning flashed around him, and time changed speed. Barry, the guy who does things slow and has been at a standstill since he was a kid, became the creator and generator for the very force of speed itself, an entire dimension of motion and infinite energy that moves time forward.

>The way I interpret Barry Allen personality-wise (especially in regards to being a speedster) is pretty much the opposite or inverse of Sonic the Hedgehog's personality.

Why do fucking autists always want to insert fucking Sonic into everything?

This is such a shitty post. You should be incredibly ashamed of yourself.

Shadow's personality is just Dark-Sonic, with an emphasis on controlling chaos instead of being free chaos.

They literally did that. You are just reciting the first New 52 run. It was mediocre drivel held up by good art.

Also the "generator of the Speed Force" is a narrative dead end. There's nothing to do with that concept. It just means Barry's the best, like he always was anyhow. It reinforces how boring he is. The only purpose it serves is power level wanking. It was a vain attempt to get the Wally West power level fanatics on board Barry's ship by immediately undercutting everyone in favor of Barry.

It's the worst addition to the Flash canon besides Bart's sordid run.

Are you that guy who constantly posts about Sonic in Flash threads who swears he isn't an autistic faggot but has pictures of fucking Sonic fans calling him an autistic faggot?

Being the generator of the Speed Force could still be a good narrative thing, potentially. I mean, like, you'd just have write Barry's connection to the Speed Force much differently from Wally's. Like, for Wally, the Speed Force is this other dimension that Wally is tethered too and could potentially suck him in if he's not careful. For Barry, the Speed Force is something inside him. I actually think being the generator the Speed Force while also normally being slow and methodical could be a good narrative in and of itself.

But it's not Barry's connection to the Speed Force. It's the Speed Force's connection to Barry.

With Wally it was interesting because he was being batted around by this higher power he both relied on, feared, and sought to understand.

With Barry that's not the case. He is the higher power. It's the same problem Barry has always had, in that he's too perfect to be interesting. It's why they gave him a cheap dead mom sob story.

Being the generator of the Speed Force does nothing to his "Fastest man alive, always late" mechanic. It adds nothing. He was already the epitome and definition of speed. This is a story bent that lost its luster 50 years ago. Adding the words Speed Force to it doesn't change the dynamic.

and getting that DAMN FOURTH EMERALD

>Name one thing Barry is the best at.

Dying

>didn't even stay dead
nah

The best flash, for m, is the most entertaining, the most relatable and the most fleshed out, being the strongest has nothing to do with it.

In that sense, Wally is the best flash.

He stayed dead longer than Wally ever did.

Maybe it could be like, as he generates the Speed Force, it affects him personally and his normal slow actions and ways of doing things end up being sped up so much that ... I don't know where I was going with this.

>Barry is better because of a random plot point rather than because of actual; character

In a medium/genre where true character progression is pretty rare, I think Wally stands out because he had a really strong character arc. He was allowed to grow from a cocky kid to a full-fledged hero. He was also able to do this in light of grappling with his predecessor's legacy in a really neat way, and was given a good 20 years for this to develop before Barry came back (even if the bulk of it came from one writer). It was a really great arc and great development, that not many characters get, and get to stick. Granted, it didn't really stick, but we'll see where he goes in Rebirth.

Dick Grayson is similar, managing to achieve a real and lasting change.

You're getting to a story that Wally already did. The build up to and conclusion of Terminal Velocity was all about Wally getting more and more in touch with the Speed Force and how it was stripping away his personality and humanity.

So yes, you have a respectable idea. One that's already been done in probably the second best Flash story arc ever. Applying it to Barry is what Barry has been doing this whole time -- retreading Wally's greatness.

That's the problem, really. When Wally became The Flash there was this consistent, good character and narrative progress, both for him, his supporting cast, and even the source of his powers.

With Barry it's just an everlasting rut as they try to recreate the magic that they threw away. Despite his first New 52 arc being called move forward, Barry is the epitome of the end of progression in the franchise.

Maybe that story arc Wally had in Terminal Velocity could be applied to Barry as well but done much differently, because Barry isn't tapping into this ethereal force all around him, his power is literally that force being created within him.

Why does that change things? It's still the same narrative beat.

But yes, all Barry's good for is bad stories and pallid Wally rip offs. Him being a boring, complete character is why they killed him off. It's why the live action version is nothing like him. It's why they killed his mom.

The dude's a narrative pitfall. His character really has nowhere to go. He just fights villains. That's all he's good for, it's all he was ever designed for, and it's why he's so boring.

Maybe Barry was just never written right. Maybe no one 'got' Barry, and then they killed him off and all the potential that could have gone to Barry was given to Wally and now Wally has the most memorable character and story and everyone thinks Barry is trash.

I think Barry Allen could still be an interesting character. He just needs a good writer that 'gets' him.

Barry Allen is slow and methodical, always late, the source of the Speed Force, a ray of hope, Wally's mentor, a forensic scientist, became a forensic scientist because of his mother's murder, was obessessed with his mother's murder before learning to move forward, and had so many problems and stuff throughout his life because of Eobard Thawne. I mean, there has to be a good and interesting character between all of these things. There just has to be.

Recomend me some wally flash runs from the 90s guys please. If you know the numbering that would be even better

Just one more example of the Wally (original) golden touch.

He even gave him his supporting cast. I miss grown-up Chunk.

Asians don't count

I can respect that position.

I always liked Barry more because I see him as a self insert. I'm not gonna lie, Wally is a better written character than Barry is now.

They should. They're much better.

All I'm saying is we were denied cute redheaded asian Impulse girl and it's DC and Black Wally's fault.

You can legit just read Flash Volume 2 from #1 to #225. A lot of people don't like the Baron run (1-14) and think the Loebs run (15-61) is just mediocre, but I think it's nice to kind of see why Wally was such a shit head before Waid's run starts in #62. It helps underscore the character growth.

Even better if you read New Teen Titans where Wally's the obnoxious stick in the mud of the group. Though that was because Wolfman fucking hated him and decided to make him the least likable, it all worked out in the end.

Wally is a self insert, though. That's how Waid always treated him. I believe his line, paraphrased, was "Like me when I was young, but with a full head of hair, in better shape, and with super powers."

Heck, Wally's original story is literally supposed to be an audience self insert about a kid getting his wish to be like the superheroes he reads about. But that was when the audience was kids.

Woah. I don0t like Barry that much, but you clearly are hating him to much.

I can think of ways of making him more interesting. First of all, giving him his own supporting cast. He may lack charm in his personality, which I also disagree because there're TV media lead characters like him that work, but whatever, but that can be fixed with a good supporting cast. And good villains. Nowadays, it's like writers don't know how to create and write good, fun, interesting villains with actual malicious plans or even ill intentions.

You know, now that I think of it, has Barry ever had his own supporting cast? I mean, the Flash TV show had to create new characters as well as putting Vibe, Killer Frost, and Firestorm in there.

Iris and Wally were his supporting cast.

Barry's problem, supporting cast wise, is his supporting cast would be more interesting than him unless you overhaul him.

That was the problem. Iris was plenty boring enough, but people liked Wally more as Barry's time was waning down. They didn't give Wally the book on a whim, they figured people would just be more interested in him.

Just his girlfriend and his sidekick. The Flash is not Sonic the Hedgehog, he can't just have Amy Rose and Tails be his supporting cast like Sonic can.

Of course I hate him. Ever since he came back Flash comics have been dreadfully boring and he's the primary culprit. Why wouldn't I hate the stupid "icon" responsible for ruining a book I have a lot of fond memories for?

Just read volume 2.
It was my starting point when I wanted to read Flash a few months ago. I read the whole thing like it was nothing. A really fun and comfy reading, to be honest.

You can still make it work.I know I am going to say something really awful right now, but Buffy The Vampire Slayer had some awfully boring lead that was carried by her supporting cast the whole show. And there are plenty of similar examples in mainstream japanese media that I can recall, like Attack on Titan or Naruto, that also had a rather bland or less interesting main compared to their supporting cast, and they still work. It's just a matter of balance in the narrative and the actual importance of said characters in the lead development.

But why wouldn't you just prefer an interesting lead? When one already existed? That you got rid of in favor of a boring one?

You're fighting against the tide and it's senseless.

Is it true that Wally is pretty much an anime?

Here you go, dude: readcomiconline.to/Comic/The-Flash-1987

Depending on what you like go buy the collections. Johns and Morrison's have been reprinted plenty and they just started Waid.

>Barry is a better character because his power level is higher
You need to be at least 18 years old to post on Sup Forums. Please come back in six years.

Because we are talking of making Barry's book a comic that can be readable and entertaining, making him gain some points of interest. And you cannot change a character's personality or history much if you want to actually preserve him as it is. If you change him too much, you may as well change the lead entirely for a new one. We don't want to do that.

From my perspective, it seems like none of you can come up with a way to make Barry interesting.

no, but his fans are the best at being raging shitheads

Barry won't get better as long as people think fixing him means he has to be more like Wally.

Why don't we want to do that? That's my point. The Flash franchise literally only grew in Barry's absence, and it immediately shrank, shriveled, and died upon his return. What' so great about Barry that we have to preserve his role as the big lead of the Flash franchise? Why jump through hoops?

Both fanbases are cancerous shitheads. Wally's is just seemingly worse because they had much, much more to be mad about.

Waid used to get all sorts of terrible letters from Barry fans during his Flash run. He had to constantly remind people Barry was dead and not coming back (funny how that turned out).

Does Wally like speed and fast things?

Because even if you don't like it, he has his fans, which means sales. You don't want to let a commercial property die, which is why publishers sometimes bring back dead or forgotten characters from time to time. Especially when is the name that general public knows and remembers when they talk about the franchise. And there's the thing of him being tied to the CW series, too. And there's space for two or even three Flashes.

His poor sales are the reason the Flash family rebooted along with the New 52. If he had good sales it would've survived, just like GL and Batman.

He has the same fans who would be reading The Flash regardless. None of his numbers have ever been exceptional, certainly not more than when Wally was The Flash.

The reason he's the name is they shoved him into shows. You could just as easily shove Wally into shows and movies, they just chose not to. Everything you're ascribing to Barry is forced circumstance. It's not something you can compare. The only times Wally ever got a shot were, what, the JLU show where he was massively popular and the comics where he was massively successful?

Your point is ridiculous. There isn't space for two Flashes, not with Barry around. Barry's existence defeats Wally's premise. It's why they were happy to kill Wally off for six years after they brought back Barry, even if sales tanked.

If I had to fix Barry I'd go with what Geoff johns did but remove all the dourness that made Barry boring.Yes Barry died and the whole world moved on even his wife but instead of him wallowing in the past if have him move on.Let Iris move on to that new boyfriend she had.Let Barry get a new job and try to get a Leesh on life a new man,maybe a new love interest and new part of the city,new job.Trying to sweep the fact that most of dc had moved past Barry was a mistake let him have a new Leah on life instead of being four like he was pre52 or dull like he was new52

The way I like to think about Barry's origin is, ever since his mother was murdered, his life was at a standstill. His mind was stuck in that moment and obsessed with it, obssessed with solving the murder and finding the man who killed her, and his slow and methodical nature is tied into that, making him pretty much a man standing still while the world around him is moving at high speed.

And when he's struck by lightning, everything changes. The rest of the world is standing still, and he's starting to move again. Move forward. Move faster than ever before. Generating speed. Generating light. So much that he IS the speed, he IS the light. A light of hope. A light that inspires others to run with him.

Maybe something could be done with this to make Barry interesting?

They did the things you're talking about. They split Iris and Barry up, gave him a new love interest, overhauled his life. It doesn't matter. He's still Barry Allen. He's still the boring nerd, he's still the guy who saved the universe and died for it, only now he didn't really die for it so that entire amazing character finale is left deflated.

Ok, mate. Whatever.

But just because they didn't get it to work in the past, it doesn't mean it's not going to work now or later.

Also, I want to finally point out that hey're trying the multiple characters with the same name.in different books. Or at least it looks to me like they're trying to do so. They work in the industry, sure they know better than me, a jobless, poorfag who expends free time in an anonymous image board. I'll trust their judgement after rethinking the new52 fiasco for now.

You already made this post in this very thread, you doofus.

It doesn't work. As long as Barry exists he's the one who HAS to have "The Flash" title.

Wally literally got a huge, unbelievably successful return. Where is he now? Wasting away in a mediocre, third rate team book while Barry is still on the Justice League (further obvious proof they don't co-exist, since he KICKED WALLY OFF THE TEAM), he's the one with the double shipping book, he's the one who shows up in the current stupid big crossover event (stupid as they are they are publicity and relevance).

Barry existing forces him to be the important one and forces Wally to be a subrate character whose entire character premise is faulty. What's the point of the man who stepped out of his mentor's shadow when his mentor comes back to life, kicks him out of his own book, off of his own superhero team, and literally gets him killed?

You wonder why Wally fans are bitter and hate Barry. You wouldn't wonder if you had lived through all the horseshit.

That doesn't sound like a story. It sounds like a shitty description.

Like, read it yourself. "Barry Allen is the light, speed and hope!" Where's your story in there? What's interesting about that besides just listing off a bunch of reasons why Barry Allen is the bestest?

That's what they did in Flash Rebirth (and Blackest Night with the Hope gimmick). And it cratered so bad that it scuttled the entire Flash family.

Barry has become so heroic and stoic that he has evolved and developed past being able to be an interesting main character. He works good as a mentor.

He works best as a deceased ideal.

>It doesn't work. As long as Barry exists he's the one who HAS to have "The Flash" title.
Disagree. Already happened.

>Wally literally got a huge, unbelievably successful return. Where is he now? Wasting away in a mediocre, third rate team book
Disagree. I like Titans, it's not great, but it's even better than the actual Flash book. Better written, better interaction between characters, better villain so far, and still developing an actual important plot for the publisher.

>while Barry is still on the Justice League (further obvious proof they don't co-exist, since he KICKED WALLY OFF THE TEAM)
Because Wally is still in the shadows, because plot reasons, because the whole editorial plan. This point is just you don't seeing where the story is going. You cannot kick out of a team a member that wasn't there to begin with. They're bringing the pre-FP status quo back.
>he's the one with the double shipping book,
Because he was the only flash pre rebirth. Obvious commercial reasons. Now there are Flash, Kid Flash, Wally flash who is coming to the in universe light soon, and Jay, probably, given that he was already teased.
>he's the one who shows up in the current stupid big crossover event (stupid as they are they are publicity and relevance).
Aha. Because, again, he's the former face of the current franchise. Totally understable.
>Barry existing forces him to be the important one and forces Wally to be a subrate character whose entire character premise is faulty.
Not necesary. You could say the same about the Green Lanterns.
>What's the point of the man who stepped out of his mentor's shadow when his mentor comes back to life, kicks him out of his own book, off of his own superhero team, and literally gets him killed?
Gosh, you're salty with an editorial choice that they're likely correcting by now.
>You wonder why Wally fans are bitter and hate Barry. You wouldn't wonder if you had lived through all the horseshit.
Relax and wait.

I personally prefer it this way now that I think about it. If we didn't have Black Wally then we would have to deal with Red head Wally being kid flash for another 20 years. This way we don't have to do all the development Wally went through.