Despite the quality of the films, where does this idea that this version of Superman is not heroic come from?

Despite the quality of the films, where does this idea that this version of Superman is not heroic come from?

>Offers to leave earth to save mankind
>Constantly saved people since childhood for no reward or glory
>Stands up for women being harrassed
>Uses his position as a journalist and Superman to stand up for people he sees as being mistreated
>Constantly Worries constantly that he’s doing more harm than good to the world
>Tries to reason with Batman despite his mother being in mortal peril
>Shat on constantly by the populace but never gets angry at them, just upset
>Saves Luthor from Doomsday despite having every reason to hate him
>Laid down his life for the world

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youtube.com/watch?v=SsGpdzHTXtg&index=54&list=PL3t6ToE_EmAsebWTSNDyuE8212Rdkxvll
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I don't really like the Snyder Superman myself but we're talking about a community that looks at Donner Superman giving up his powers for pussy and cheers. Their mostly Superman casuals and don't know anything about the character.

Look man, just check the archive and I grantee theres a thread that will have covered this and more. There is literally nothing more to talk about this movie, and yet this thread will get 300-400 posts mostly consisting of samefagging autists with bullshit arguments.

>>Tries to reason with Batman despite his mother being in mortal peril

No he didn't
youtube.com/watch?v=SsGpdzHTXtg&index=54&list=PL3t6ToE_EmAsebWTSNDyuE8212Rdkxvll

You know, that always bugged me. Why DID Superman have to give up his powers to be with Lois? He couldn't be Superman and have a wife?

I also don't know why no one cared when he killed a powerless Zod in that film, but that's a whole nother can of worms.

>Blaming Donner for the stupid shit in superman 2
I hate Italians so much.

He pushed him off a ledge. That doesn't equal death.

I know it doesn't "count" but a deleted scene actually shows the cops taking Zod away.

>He pushed him off a ledge. That doesn't equal death.

When it's the last time you see him in the film it kinda does

Charisma and the lack thereof matter.

It's all about attitude. When Reeve was Superman he was always clear and confident in everything that he did. A big problem with Cavil is that the script didn't show much of a difference between Clark and Superman.
If they wanted a more serious Clark they should have had a brighter Superman

He comes off as cowardly and reluctant because of how safe he plays things. Fortune, and audiences, favor the bold.

He had a decent Superman in MoS when he was in costume and actually dealing with people. I thought things were about to turn around in that film when he got in the suit after the flight and this scene youtube.com/watch?v=4CFrwHXYotI

How does he, in anyway, come off as cowardly?

>we aren't saying he isn't heroic, just that he doesn't smile enough

neck yourselves, you dont know shit about Superman

The problem is not what he does, it's what the movies show us.

Imagine there's a movie about Rocky but they only show us matches where he's losing and how upset he is after them. And never shows us parts where he dusts himself off to get back to training and his subsequent victories.

Superman's not heroic because they only show us and emphasize his worst moments.

That stuff you've parsed as "concerned about consequence" is viewed by others as cowardly. Responsibility is for tax accountants, not cool guys.

The problem is that heroics are constantly painted as a bad thing by the films.

>Constantly saved people since childhood

More accurately this is adulthood. He did it once, in childhood and was told by Jonathan Kent told him to keep "this side of yourself a secret," even to point of "maybe" letting people die because "there's more at stake here than our lives or the lives of those around us."

>Stands up for women being harassed
I'm not sure that's really clear as a through-point in both films.

>Uses his position as a journalist
He was only shown being a journalist in BvS, where he indicated he didn't know who one of the wealthiest industrialist in the twin-city metro area that is Gotham/Metropolis (since in this 'verse, they are adjacent to one another) and he didn't even turn in his assigned sports stories on time, or at all.

>cowardly and reluctant

These do not equate as the same thing. In addition, it's clear Bruce has been in retirement, mostly, and that this is a universe, to the extent that supers/wonders/metas exist, they are in hiding, keep themselves and their abilities pretty secret and even when they act openly, there's a great deal of antagonism from the public. That's how it's framed, in particular, in the second film, so you cannot expect them (all of them, Clark, Bruce, Diana - and it's clear from what we've seen of Barry and Arthur, that this is true of them, and of the metas in Suicide Squad, they are also non-existent as far as taking majorly open, public roles, whether acting as agents for good or evil, it's the status quo in this universe to be hidden, e.g. reluctant.

Calling it cowardly is just your own impression.

Hahaha! You think you can stop this? Snyder threads FOREVER

I think it comes from how somber he looks during his heroics, how violent and destructive the movie in general is yet how almost oblivious or flippant Superman is about it (MoS made a huge mistake not having any real scenes where Supes helps civilians or stops collateral damage, even the Avengers had that and Superman II made a huge point that Superman's compassion and need to protect was a weakness to exploit in combat), and there's that scene where Supes talks about his dad and says something along the lines of "I was trying to appease a ghost" as if the only reason he's being a hero in the first place is for the sake of his dad. Or the scene where he's descending in absolutely no fucking hurry to rescue the family on the food during the flood (especially since the imagery there has him descend so slowly in an attempt to make him look Christ-like). It just in general creates the impression that, while heroic In terms of the deeds he does, Superman himself is flaky. Like it's an obligation not altruism.

im not op

Pa Kent wanted to let Clark reveal himself on his own terms (so he could, for example, forge a secret identity if need be) and he ended up being right, look how the world reacted after Superman did reveal himself.

>I'm not sure that's really clear as a through-point in both films.

So? He still did it once, no one is claiming its a through line.

>MoS made a huge mistake not having any real scenes where Supes helps civilians or stops collateral damage

what the fuck are you talking about, he saves a bus full of kids, he helps the woman who is being harassed, and he saves the oil rig thats on fire. Jesus christ, did you even watch the movie?

I don't get why people don't like the film in general.
As a lifelong DC reader, I thought it was very much in the spirit of the best of DC- and interesting new spin on a rich universe.

Note that I mean Snyder's films. SS wasn't that interesting. People flew off the hyperbole chain with SS too though. It was nowhere near the worst super hero film ever.

>Or the scene where he's descending in absolutely no fucking hurry to rescue the family on the food during the flood


Its not that he isnt in a hurry, its that they have his symbol painted on his house as if he is some kind of god, and he isn't sure if he should save them first, because it might send the impression that praising him yields favor with them. Its even during a montage where its shown he is uncomfortable being shown as a god (with everyone touching him) but its an inevitable comparison (like how he is holding the boat chain over his shoulder like a cross). You know Superman has been compared to christ/angels since forever in the comics, and is very intentionally a play on Moses.
Also the "I was trying to appease a ghost" line is actually Superman saying he is just "a dream from a farmer from Kansas" which refers to BOTH his dad's dream for him (to be a hero and do good on his own terms) AND himself because he too is a farmer from Kansas.
You cant even remember the lines correctly you fucking double nigger.

Anti Snyder drones are on autopilot these days.
Same few (objectively incorrect) talking points every time.

I agree with you 100% man

he also saves Lois when they first meet.

>expecting basic grasp of narrative from Snyder bashers

He did actually. He showed up to talk to Batman but Batman was all "EVENIFTHERE'SA1%CHANCEWEHAVETOKILLHIMHWHWHXDYAYGDGYF!!11!!" So he started attacking Superman and he kept just walking through all of Batmans bullshit precious prep time trying to reason with him, up until the point he got in his face and Supes had had just about enough and was running out of time.

Thinning hairline by the looks of your pic, mostly.

The real joke here is... if Batman could kill Superman he could probably kill Doomsday, too. Superman is a legitimate threat in a lot of way. If you don't believe me just go read a few alternate stories where he goes badguy.

but he did try to reason with Batman

but it was shown that Batman couldnt kill Doomsday, in fact Batman was pretty useless against Doomsday. The difference is one is a beast of raw power while the other still thinks/acts like a man, so he can fall for the mental trickery of Batman.

Only when it got personal for him and he realized he was, despite his powers, pretty shitty when it comes to getting shit done (which is the heart of the reason most people don't see him heroic in this movie; for the most part he wasn't). Otherwise he literally got in the way of him stopping criminals.

It showed him dealing with Doomsday for, like, 5 minutes. And his prep against Superman contributed. This is willful blindness on your part.

what do you fucking mean, he got a lot done, he saved a bunch of people in the movie, and when he stopped the Batmobile the first time, from Superman's perspective Batman was hunting down perfectly legal Lexcorp guards. And he COULDNT go save Martha or else the guys guarding her had orders to kill her.


Goddamn, do you even WATCH the movie?

You know that whole thing about how bedside manner is a great predictor of the likelihood of malpractice lawsuits (I don't have a source for that, but friends who are doctors or in med school have always told me that). It's the same thing here. This Superman wasn't perceived as bright enough, and the logical critique was built around that. At the end of the day, it's about the impression. It's not logical but there you go, that's how most people think.

What are you talking about, he couldnt get anywhere near Doomsday and had his ship ruined by him. Batman would not be a match against Doomsday without tons and tons of preptime.

>Yeah, he saved all those villagers, whom he could have easily noticed were being genocided being in the area, when he went to save Loi--OH WAIT.

>Yeah, he sure pulled a lot of people out of that government building when that motorized wheelchair explo--OH WAIT.

>Yeah, he sure did a bang up job during his fight with Zo--OH WAIT. *snap*

>Yeah, he sure intimidated Batman into stopping and kicked his ass when he wouldn't list--OH WAIT! *bleeds*

Nah dude. Nah.

>Didn't watch the movie.
>It was Batman's grenades that distracted Doomsday.
>It was Batman's spear that ultimately killed him.

This.

Superman couldn't even explain his mom was taken hostage to another hero without getting his face kicked in.

>perfectly legal Lexcorp guards
Are you listening to yourself? Go to bed, Lex.

>>It was Batman's spear that ultimately killed him.
Yeah, because Batman had the spear, right?

But the villagers were killed AFTER he left and it was made explicitly clear in BvS and MoS that he tunes out the majority of sounds but has a few that are like "alert" sounds, such as Lois screaming.
Also the wheelchair was lined with led you fucking idiots, did you even watch the movie? He had no way of knowing it was going to explode.
And Zod flat out said to kill him or he was going to kill every last human in existence, and there was no way to open the phantom zone again. Literally death by cop.
And Batman was the villain for most of the movie, he would never have stopped regardless of what Superman said.
Lastly, it took Wonder Woman holding Doomsday in place for Superman to even get close to Doomsday. For most of the fight it was Batman running.

Well they fucking were

>being this retarded

In the whole movie humans do the most exceptional things, good and bad. Superman was just there soaking up credit for things he didn't even do.

Hell, he couldn't even finish off Doomsday in a proper way without getting his shit kicked in AGAIN.

>Superman kills Zod because it's clear he won't reform.
>Batman marks some criminals (doesn't even kill them just lets others of their kind do it) because they won't reform.
>Superman: NO YOU CAN'T DO THAT.
Hypocrite much?

>Carry rocket launchers smuggling in illegal substances.
>Legal.

Superfags, everyone. This is the height of their argument.

Don't bother. Snyder's dick is addictive to Superfags.

What do you mean, Lex had pressured the Senator into letting him import the kryptonite, and guards are allowed to use whatever the fuck they want in the DC universe, shit some people even have super powered guards.
Also it wasnt that Superman didnt believe Zod couldnt reform, it was that Zod flat out said he wouldnt and that his genetic programming prevented him from doing so.
And Superman just didnt want him being judge, jury, executioner, probably BECAUSE of how much his own time doing it with Zod weights on him. A big part of the movie is Batman and Superman projecting their flaws onto each other.

cause he doesn't smile

What's sad is there is plenty of legitimate criticism for the movie. But people will ignore it because they're that desperate for a DC movie to go with the Marvel movies.

And in a few years people will look back and think, "How the fuck did we think this was a good movie?"

Because it's not.

>Lex had pressured the Senator
>Didn't even watch the movie.
She said no. Then he killed her. He didn't get permission.

the other one, remember the whole jolly rancher scene?

>And Superman just didnt want him being judge, jury, executioner...
Batman never did this. He just branded them. Except those guys holding Martha hostage, he killed the fuck out of them with Superman's blessing. Huh.

Still a hypocrite.

He still had to get her permission. He never did. The jolly rancher scene was an illegal deal. How is this not obvious?

>Except those guys holding Martha hostage, he killed the fuck out of them with Superman's blessing. Huh.
Snyderfags BTFO.

Man of Murder.

Because everyone around him either criticizes him, put's him at a too high pedestal, or plain hates him. The only one who likes Clark are his mom and girlfriend

I blame Snyder for this

This.

WTF Snyder.

Luthor was paying off criminals in prison to murder anyone with Batman's brand on them. Then he sent news clips to Clark about the branded people being murdered.

Luthor manipulated everyone, making Batman believe Superman was being reckless and dangerous with his powers, and making Superman believe Batman was a unrepentant killer vigilante. That was his plan, to pit them against each other by making each of them look evil and dangerous to the other.

he didnt kill a single person in the warehouse except KGBeast, the guy who jumped on the grenade chose to throw it and chose to jump on it. He could have ran if he wanted.

Its not illegal at all, he is literally pressuring another government official who asks him what he wants. Jesus christ you are an idiot. And REGARDLESS Superman had no idea what Lex was shipping and has no reason to know exactly what minerals are or arent legal to import before stopping a crazed masked vigilante, so from his point of view they were just innocent guards being attacked.

What's your point? Luthor is still another criminal.

Well, there was the car he exploded with his mini-gun armed Batplane. And the guys he exploded with the grenade by kicking one into the other. And probably the dude he hit with a crate and smashed his skull bloody on the wall.

It's likely the others survived. Probably. But people definitely died.

but thats literally reflecting the fan reaction to both MoS and BvS.

>X-Ray vision.
>Can sense Kryptonite when near it.
>Had no idea.
>Didn't even think to fucking ask.

And you wonder why we think Superman wasn't very heroic. He couldn't see passed his own nose. His own stunted sense of morality blinded him.

id say the only one is batplane kill, the grenade was the fault of the guy who threw it, and the crate guy could survive.

Superman in the comics and cartoons work because despite a number of people who don't like him, there's enough appreciation to inspire him to keep on smiling. Being bombarded with constant hate would make anyone sour

>Can sense Kryptonite when near it.

Since when? Its obvious his first exposure to it is when Batman shows it to him. Also its shown that Lex already knows about the led lining blocking x-ray vision so he might have used that, and lastly what REASON dos Superman have to look at what they are transporting or know its illegal?

The problem is Snyder tried to fit in too many storylines at the same fucking time and overloaded the plot. Doomsday, a touch of Kingdom Come, Silver Age, etc... Should had just focused on one part, maybe Batman and Superman working together, and left the other shit out for future movies.

Instead we get this hamfisted collage of bullshit where they're trying to ram a Justice League down our throats before they're even established.

>what REASON dos Superman have to look at what they are transporting or know its illegal?
Uh... it's fucking Batman chasing them? Or his job is to be a reporter and ask fucking questions?

It's just shitty writing and it makes Superman unheroic, and worse stupid. Stop defending it.

But Superman has worked with murders before, he is even currently working with the suicide squad, a whole gang of murderers. And I think most of Superman's projections onto Batman/preconceived notions of him dissolved after his talk with ghost dad and Clark deciding to believe that men can be good again (hence him trying to just talk to Bruce before fighting him).

Its not his job as Superman to question victims of a reckless vigilante. And at this point Superman's opinion of Batman is that he is a crazed madman who used to do good.

Which is hilarious in the way he tries to stop Batman. The set up and delivery was so poorly thought out.

>couldnt even understand how Superman felt about Batman
>someone thinks "because he is Batman" is a solid reason
>criticizes the movie and not his own intelligence

>Going this far to literally defend shitty writing.
Sup Forums... meet the Snyder Internet Defense Force.

Why is it hilarious and what did that have to do with what I posted? You are just moving goal posts, but regardless Batman was obviously still crazed during that fight and so Superman was pleading with him to save Martha, a human woman, he was going to say Martha Kent but he had a boot on his throat. If he said "save my mom" then Batman would just think its some alien shit.

>I didn't understand it so its shitty writing

wew lad,I'm sorry you are autistic and cant understand characters and how they feel about each other.

Is this from BvS or LotR? Because I can't tell.

>has fantasy armor
>cant tell
get help

>Point out Superman was being a hypocrite trying to stop Batman from branding criminals.
>Superman, who works with murderers, who killed Kryptonians when there were so few left, who APPROVED OF BATMAN KILL TO SAVE HIS MOM...
You can't see the humor? Maybe you're retarded.

Oh, I understand it plenty. It's shitty.

Wow. Cave trolls could work magic. I didn't know that!

>I dont like that Superman didnt trust Batman so its shitty

kek k

It's more like I don't like how Superman is treated as an idiot that doesn't ask questions like a reporter should. Or doesn't try to reach out to Batman instead just goes, "I'm the biggest dick here! I beat up your car and I'll beat you up too!"

It's probably the worst way to deliver anything on Superman. Ever. Even the giant S that Superman threw in the Reeve movies doesn't come close.

There's nothing wrong with Cavill, or the actors in general - Snyder just cuts his movies in a way to make them feel very long and very slow, draining all excitement from them.

I liked the visuals, I liked the actors and even the script - it's just the cut of the flick is immensely dragged out.

I mean Superman wasnt just angry about the branding, he was becoming increasingly casual about killing, and THIS Superman hadnt worked with murderers before. Also he knows for a fact that there are other kryptonians in the phantom zone so killing zod wasnt dooming his race or anything you idiot. And I dont think he necessarily approved of Batman killing to save his mom, but he wasnt really in a position to stop him, and at THIS point in the movie he now knows that the people Batman would potentially be killing are terrible criminals that are aiding Lex's masterplan. Before it seemed like Batman was attacking innocent guards for no reason, and he didnt try to give one.

>fantasy armor
>what is wonder woman

Here's another when Arwen the elf maiden warrior kills a Cave troll and don't need no man.

You're fucking blind you nitpicking retard. Cave trolls are like two doomsdays in terms of size and not covered in bonescabs.

yeah Superman just waving his dick at Batman isnt portrayed as the right thing, its portrayed as a mistake. Think of it this way, the only other enemy he has faced was Zod, who made a point to show Superman that might makes right, so its the only way he knows to try and deal with zealots. But it just serves to further radicalize Batman, which bites Clark in the butt later when he tries to just talk to Batman. Then finally Superman tries one more time to reach out and to be completely and utterly honest with Batman and it works. Its both of their character arcs colliding.


So Snyder agrees with you, it is a stupid thing. To not question things and to just assume the worst about Batman, and Superman learns his lesson.

>Being this delusional
>Literally thinks these two aren't nearly identical.

So that problem is not that he isn't heroic, but that this Superman isn't Chad enough for Sup Forums.

>implying the size of Doomsday isn't super fucking inconsistent in its own movie
k

they really arent, they even have different faces, look about as similar as two white people or two black people

it isnt

Yeah, sure it isn't.

Nah, won't fall for that. Arwen didn't look like a rat.

ur just proving my point more, doomsday has spiky bits all over his face. Ill give you they are from the same "race" of bad guys, but they dont look that similar.

>Snyder goes from a BvS movie, to a Superman versus Doomsday, to a League forming movie, to a League versus Darkseid.
Jesus... so fucking overloaded. That's four movies wasted. FOUR! IN ONE SHOT!

Cave troll looks like doomsday got downs syndrome that went wrong...er. also no bone scabs.

She was definitely mousy.

Its called getting yhe overdone gut neccissary bullshit over with. Sorry that you hate new things but they're on the way. Crybabby.