Let's have a /hypercrisis/ thread! This edition: Superman
We all know that Superman the character and the archetype plays an essential role in Hypercrisis. What is the significance of having the latest iterations of Superman (New 52 and DCEU) dead while a Superman of a gone world is running around?
What will it mean when they (reportedly) come back to life later this year?
It's going to be really interesting to see how Multiplicity plays out.
Reminder that Superbro never got to tap Lois and that Wonder Woman was his one true love.
>a few months later Wondy is all "nah I didn't really love him someone was playing with my head"
Remember when Phantom Stranger sang a rap song about the anti-death equation and the Empty Hand?
The best parts of this series is the meta-commentary.
Tomasi already used the transmatter cube in his Cooke tribute/Dino Island two-parter, which I also assume is going to come up either in how Multiplicity plays out or some other way in the future.
Not necessarily Dino Island, or the Earth it is from, but the cubes themselves.
I remember that Swamp Thing issue.
Superman Unchained is canon and it would disagree with you as far as 'OTL' as would all the 2011-2012 issues Superbro was in (pic related).
Plus which - how does this topic relate to hyper crisis?
Funny how everyone hated Superbro but when he got killed of people started liking him and wanted him back
Just spit-balling here, but I think the dead Supermen indicate a time of change for people's sentiments about the character. Everyone has a pretty firm grasp on what "my Superman" would do, whether that be the overpowering chad with the golden smile or the humble warrior-poet farmboy or the disaffected allegorical spaceman. Everyone is settled on their interpretation of the character because the character has existed for so long and has been shown in so many ways.
Right now DC is testing the waters, seeing what the zeitgeist has to say about Superman. What they've found is this fractured notion of who he is. If a particularly striking idea came about and really asserted itself as THE Superman, it could create a modern interpretation of the character which could become the way everyone sees him.
Death often becomes a symbol and catalyst for change. The death (and rebirth) of two different Supermen could mean the greatest change for the character yet.
That's because Sup Forums is full of ungrateful naysayers who don't know what they actually like. They just like to complain. They complained when he was alive because he wasn't good/cool/sad/happy/etc enough. They complain when he's dead because now he's not around for them to complain about.
I liked the New 52 Superman (aka Superman) the way Morrison was writing him. Unfortunately, Perez (notwithstanding whatever crap he was having with Berganza - and I have no idea if his issues were with the Superman office or the editorial above, e.g. Harras, etc. -- other than I would blame Harras for most of the bad calls of the past 5 years) started off making him vastly different tonally than he was written in Justice League by Johns or when they went to the Zero issues or the Zero Year issues, or started Batman/Superman showing Clark and Bruce meeting in Gotham PRIOR to the Darkseid invasion, there were just too many versions of Clark. The problems on the Superman book, and the problems with Action once Morrison left and Pak wasn't really allowed to do anything due to all the cross-overs, that Pak wasn't really in charge of, even if he participated in them, caused many tonal problems.
The Superman in Batman/Superman's run, the Superman in the 19 issues of Action that Morrison wrote, the nine issues of Superman Unchained Snyder wrote, I'm pretty happy with those issues and enjoyed them. There were random pages from other things I liked but otherwise I don't miss anything about them and, unfortunately, they make the bulk but those are writing and editorial problems.
In five years people might say similar things about Superdad. That all said, I think it's wrong to think:
>everyone hated Suprebro
or
>people ... [want] him back
I'd agree that a chunk of it is similar to the people who get so vociferous in their defense of MoS or BvS - they are in part naysayers to simply naysay or feel they must take that position or defend irrespective because something they liked is being "attacked."
Not to mention that in the later Siperman stories written by Geoff Johns he had Superbro having huge tension with Lois.
The only one to portray SM/WW as super in love was Peter Tomasi and this mostly in the last arcs of his run, where Superbro broke off with her because he felt powerless and thus unworthy of her, and later because he'd learn he was dying and wanted to spare her, and where Wonder Woman felt betrayed and hurt by Superbro's attitude and sudden distance.
>while a Superman of a gone world is running around?
>What will it mean when they (reportedly) come back to life later this year?
Not a damn thing. Like you yourself said, who needs those fakers when we've already got the real deal back. Feels super, bubba.
>gone world
If this is the Pre-FP universe, than he's not the Superman of a gone world, although if this was the case, then Martha should be alive, and what's the deal with Chris Kent, why wouldn't Lana remember marrying Pete versus being with John Henry, etc. There's just a way lot of questions that are hard to explain with 10 years being removed.
Well, look at it this way. Perhaps Manhattan didn't just pluck a contiguous decade from the timeline. Maybe he plucked individual days where things happened. Maybe there was a day that Clakr saved Martha in his youth, and by removing that day he was unable to save her. Maybe he plucked the day Chris made it out of the Phantom Zone, so it never happened. Maybe he plucked the day Pete first asked Lana out. Maybe he plucked the day Roy told Ollie he was getting a shitty tattoo, when Ollie made fun of him for it and talked him out of it.
I will always find it funny that DC will always be referencing Alan Moore's work.
I'm sure it will be fixed by comic book logic. I think it's just part and parcel of how The Cereal King is, genuinely, a pretty lazy and unoriginal writer. He's written some things that I think were really interesting, used canon well and were self-contained, but it just seems like in all his post 2009 or so work, he's aiming for a cleverness and intricateness of plotting that he's not able to manage or sustain.
You do realize that Moore is not original and that much of the work you THINK of as DC referencing currently was Moore using the work of others?
Also in the most recent story some multiversal villains going after Supermen from all of the universe didn't recognize Superdad as the Superman of Earth 0 but Kenan Kong the guy who has Superbro's energy.
There should be an anti-wife equation to delete waifu threads.
I remember being stunned at how the three Supermen at the start of New52 (Morrison's, Perez' and Johns') were absolutely nothing alike to the point that I couldn't identify them as the same character. Morrison was the only one doing something vaguely different. Perez was writing the same old Superman with the addition of friendzone, and Johns was just winging some edgy shit and generally having no idea what to do.
That's the image that stuck in my head for the remainder of Superbro's career. Not that he was edgy or grimdark, but that he wasn't anything.
Good point, that was made in the Story-time thread of that issue.
Just by coincidence, even though I had read them a while back, I had discovered the copies of the Superman Chronicles at my local library, which are all the issues (so Action and Superman, etc.) in chronological order since 1938, and I had read those before starting Morrison's Action run, and so I recognized what he was doing and how he was relating it, down to the Star and George, and so forth. That's the Superbro I regret that no one else picked up on. There's some elements of him in the Batman/Superman first arc, Crossed World's but that's about it.
Yeah, Perez was just 2009 Superman but with all these surface changes - the Daily Planet being destroyed, Edge being African-American, and yes, the friend-zoning. I don't think Johns had a plan for the JL until Forever Evil and personally found that to be a lot of noise and thunder that ultimately didn't change anything in any real sense, down to the fact that Dick is now back to being Nightwing, which would have happened irrespective of Rebirth.
Interesting to see we're on a similar wavelength. Though I don't think it's just about a synthesizing of ideas, but more a purging of all the toxic cynicism the character's accumulated over the past decade (and even further back, honestly) with every attempt to modernize him.
I mean, is it any coincidence that signs point to Superbro merging with Superdad? Or that it's a given Snyder's Superman will return from the dead with a disposition closer to his classic interpretation?
Moore did create (with Bissette and Totleben) John Constantine (the limey Phantom Stranger is referring to) -- and I think those enormous light/dark hands were created by Moore for the Swamp Thing Crisis crossover.
Also: Dr. Manhattan was cleary created by Moore (even if a replacement/riff on Captain Atom).
D.C. (and its creators) resent him, but they can't quit him.
Go away reddit
>Or that it's a given Snyder's Superman will return from the dead with a disposition closer to his classic interpretation
That's not what they intended, which was all the Injustice type references that were (unnecessarily) included.
The real injustice in all of this is that it was Geoff Johns' portray of Superbro that was highly advertised and stuck the most with people. Even the animated movies are going with that interpretation of the character.
Perez created a number of characters - some pretty unnecessary, but he certainly don't want to let you forget that he created them.
Who Constantine is as he is popularly embraced by his own fans isn't really what Moore had in mind, or what Constantine is today (although to be fair I'm not reading the current ongoing and I know a fair number of people aren't happy with it or the characterizations). Magic isn't a major force in the DCU unless it's needed for a cross-over, story arc, by and large, it's more the Godwave/metahuman aspects that drives most stories/titles, or the basic good vs. evil, right versus wrong, justice versus crime type stories.
I would say the key people creating Rebirth are more resentful of what some other people's influences on DC canon (Waid, Morrison come to mind off the top of my head, as just a few examples) than they are specifically of Moore.
The entire aspect of bringing Watchman to the mainline DCU is, as I've stated here and elsewhere, The Cereal King being lazy, unimaginative and sloppy.
I no lie wrote an entire M Theory modrl based on Flash comics that was scientifically plausible.
Lost it a while back and should re type it.
Also The Kree are descended from Krishna and Ms Marvel is the last incarnation of Vishnu.
Which Punk Ass Limey?
Most like Constantine.
>Even the animated movies are going with that interpretation of the character.
His job as COO is supposed to be as liaison and working with the companies that are interested in exploiting the DC IP; even though WB animation is another company under Warner Brothers, is considered separate from the studio and separate from the TV (in the same sense that Cartoon Network and DC are their own creatures even with the same owner).
You'll notice all the first batch of new 52 movies they started animating, starting with Flashpoint, were all adaptations of Johns work? Just as the DCW is adapting a lot of ideas that Johns did in his Flash runs (down to the current waste of Flashpoint).
On the subject of hypercrisis. When rebirth first came out, someone pointed out that a card deck had 52 cards and 3 jokers, that were shuffled by a hand that might as well have been the hand of creation or the empty hand. then there was some talk about what position each dc entity or character had in the deck.
Anyone knows what I'm talking about? Better yet does anyone have the screencap.
Yeah, it's pretty sad. I've basically adopted Morrison's Superman as my own interpretation of the character, more or less. Morrison's run isn't perfect, and I found it quite dull at times to be honest, but his character of Superman is filled energy and optimistic enthusiasm that I now consider completely integral to the character.
I don't it's just that, but the fact that Perez was replaced by Lobdell, who continued Johns' Assholebro interpretation in full. That's what I think sealed it for a lot of people.
A grand irony that the Cosmic Collectors dont count Superdad as the "real" Superman of earth 0.
I believe I was in that thread, or one like it anyway, but I do not have the screencap. Whatever came of the three Jokers anyway?
I miss Superbro.
>We all know that Superman the character and the archetype plays an essential role in Hypercrisis.
Just to make sure we're on the same page...what are the archetypes of Superman? Please explain his role in Hypercrisis.
Yeah, but that was just a vision/aborted timeline. You know they wouldn't seriously go through with the BAD END scenario as more than a tease.
R-right...?
Nothing beyond teasing references in Harley Quinn so far.
It's just the retarded ass way they decided to solve shit. Superman from another universe with no friends in this one, decides to take refuge here.
Snyder's playing the long game in the DCEU. An extremely powerful strategy. Notice how people are yearning for the "real" Superman now, when previously they would have hated him? But that's exactly what he was planning, since Superman wasn't supposed to be fully Superman (that is, at his strongest and best) until Justice League.
With Superman's literal rebirth in the movie and comic, Superman will be reborn figuratively in the hearts of the masses.
Honestly, If there's one thing Geoff can do, it's writing a top-tier superman. The DCEU may have a bad rap and Wonder Woman isn't giving any positive signs, but I'm hopeful that at least some aspects of it will experience a rebirth of some kind.
>Honestly, If there's one thing Geoff can do, it's writing a top-tier superman.
What about his JL run?
>Kree descended from Krishna
>Ms. Marvel is Vishnu
Please explain further. That sounds fascinating.
I thought it was fine. Not great, but fine. Sup Forums's hate for it seemed slightly irrational for me. Even then, it is evident that he was already working on rebirth given the decrease in quality of the final issues. Also I'm pretty sure that shitty first arc was written by Jim Lee.
>>We all know that Superman the character and the archetype plays an essential role in Hypercrisis.
What are they?
It's pretty obvious that the first arc was Jim Lee following John's beats. The main reason why his Justice League is reviled here is more for the reason that it can't sit still for even a second instead of the quality of the writing being bad, per say. Very interesting seeing it come from an All Star like Johns as it has all the trappings of his regular work yet it fails to amount to anything. Its clear that he was being overworked from the start of Forever Evil, was forced to halt everything so he could do the Darksied Wars, and was most likely given the job of writing JL right after he finished Flashpoint. The guy just doesn't get a break. So what you get is a really sloppy book where plot points are dropped issue to issue while Johns try to insert as much silver age fun without having the time to refine those concepts into anything worthwhile. Kind of ironic seeing as many of the covers
I really wanted to like JL. I still love the idea of Lex on the team and Snart being a payed bodyguard for him. But the thing is, you actually have to stick with those ideas and not throw fifty two other things into the mix or else all you get is a weird intermittent blob of possibilties. Like eating only the marshmallow bits from a box of cereal
Forever Evil was the only good thing to come out of it.
I'm not sure what Snyder intended, but seeing as those dream sequences were either Bruce's paranoia and/or Steppenwolf messing with him, I think that in actuality, Clark won't be going evil, at least for too long.
Snyder actually just intended to make the film less linear by adding those scenes.
He actually has no idea how they fit into the main plot.
>posting memes
There's literally never been a single bit of proof regarding this. It's funny how easy it is to convince people of lies. There was definitely a plan in place that he at least told Ezra Miller (if not the rest of the actors) about.
The film was still linear too, so that conspiracy theory doesn't make any sense.
Some of the dropped plot points are being adressed in the current books, such as the rogue's heist, what happened to Lena Luthor, Lex's new relationship with apokolips, etc.
>Like eating only the marshmallow bits from a box of cereal
They don't call him the cereal king for anything
What conspiracy theory?
This one:
So Pure.
I'll explain once you take off your trip faggot
Fuck you Cucka.
>First Multiversity
>Then Hanna Barbera
>Now Wildstorm is back
What's the next non-prime or non-DC line do you want next?
Even Johns was writing Wonder Woman as if she wasn't in love with Superbro.
Okay. It's off. Please explain.
In Scott Lobdell's Superman run he turned that kiss from Brian Azzarello's Wonder Woman run, which was more a ruse to get Orion off guard, and turned into a "thing", as if Wonder Woman and Orion had a moment or a fling behind Superbro's back.
I don't know why people miss Superbro's relationship with Wondy.
Charles Soule's run you had Superbro and Wondy bickering back and forth and being generally shitt to each other, with Superbro constantly feeling insecure about not measuring up to Batman for some odd reason as if he was Chuck Dixon's Nightwing.
Hell, even in Tomasi's run where Superbro wanted to propose to Wondy and Wondy watched over him like a hawk you had them awful to each other.
What about Hanna Barbera?
Actually, Terrio and Affleck gave an interview where they talked about it as a possible future story-line; that's how it was presented to them in the scripting - and for Affleck - in the acting. I've never heard of any conversations about Ezra or about Snyder wanting to be less linear It wouldn't surprise depending on when the interview came out, that Snyder saying something like that was part of the apology tour after the pre-release reviews came-in and then after the drops in box office post release weekend.
But I'd rather discuss Superman and Hypercrisis than have this devolve into yet ANOTHER MoS/BvS thread.
>3 jokers
Most of the standard (poker/black jack/casino is what I am thinking of) have only 2 jokers. Albeit, I wouldn't put it pass The Cereal King to do this because it's exactly the kind of 'ingenuity' and 'creativity' that he thinks past for deep thought and cleverness.
Superman, Lois and Jon arrived here when they were done with helping Barry, original flavor Kara and Parallax Hal save the multiverse post Convergence. They didn't choose it, it's simply where they landed.
It's covered in the 8 part Arrival arc that was Lois & Clark.
They are doing some HB annuals with DC characters cross-overs:
io9.gizmodo.com/dc-superheroes-will-team-up-with-hanna-barbera-characte-1789999984
Booster Gold with the Flintstones and Adam Strange with the Future Quest cast and two others.
AND THEY ARE CANON
Does Flex Mentallo fits on the Superman archetype?
When is the original Golden Age version coming back? Will he be the one to beat Manhattan?
I want Golden Age, Silver Age, Superdad ,Superbro and Shazam to beat Manhattan.
All the best things in DC are now canon, thankfully.
It's a BAD END where Batman kills Lois and Superman works for Darkseid (YOU took her away from me). It hasn't been fully prevented yet because Flash says that he's "too soon." All Bats has to do is not kill Lois. Shouldn't be that hard.
But man I hope that universe has a tie-in comic or something. It's so interesting, like DBZ Trunks's timeline.
I miss him and I want him back.
Or Batman failed to protect or save Lois.
Maybe. I took it to mean that it was his fault directly but you could be right. It's fun speculating about this kind of stuff.
That one?
That's a theory?
I think it is the future where Bats really killed Superman and then Lois drowned when she tried o get the spear
I'd say so, Mentallium Man is clearly supposed to be Metallo from superman,
>Ms Marvel is the last incarnation of Vishnu.
Absolutely fuckin' haram.
Yep.
>And on another note.
Well so much for a HYPERCRIS thread.
I expect it to not be a crossover, more of a continuation/evolution of what Manhattan would become after the story was over with. Like a fallout of the events of Watchmen.
I'm not so sure. Where would he get the power boost from?
Well, since no one else is going to address this, here's a quick summary.
Putting in effort.
I miss you too user
Obligatory Hypercrisis post.
I've always liked the theory that panel to panel inconsistencies are created from small tears in the bleed. Like the reason why such a minor change in what a character is holding or why something looks off-model is because of a momentary cut into the universe. And the inconsistency is like a scab forming over the cut
The fundamental structure of the Watchmen universe is what kept Manhattan's powers in check.
That's an interesting theory when applied to the real production of comics. Mistakes like that can originate from almost every level of the pipeline, not just the penciller. Perhaps the Bleed isn't just the connective medium between universes. It could be read as the depiction of the figurative "blood, sweat, and tears" that goes into many creative efforts. These hiccups and errors would be the equivalent of minor circulation problems.
Wasn't there a long discussion about Final Crisis and the Miracle Machine in a HC thread that also discussed Superman? That's the one I was thinking when those questions were initially asked, but if you don't have them saved as you did, it's a pain to search for on Desu.
I mean, it's pretty clear that Captain Carrot in Multiplicity will at least suggest a call back to the restoration of the Zoo Crew and Superman fighting alongside a number of alternate multiversal Supermen....
I'm just so fucking happy someone else is actually using morrisons stuff and not 'hands over ears, eyes shut' level ignoring it
Was this part of it or was there another bigger one?
>Ms Marvel is the last incarnation of Vishnu.
What, Kalki, avatar of the end, scourge of the foul and ignorant world?
Becoming a fictional character. Watchmen's reality was grounded and restrictive, and there he was seen as god. In the rest of the DC multiverse, anything can happen. When's he's not bound by realism, he can become a god among other gods.
Bringing back attention to this because I need to find that damn screencap
The real question
>ideas are agency
really gets the neurons firing
I thought it was in reference to Batman not saving Martha?
WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME
Why would it be if Superman says "she was my world" in the Knightmare and and "you are my world" before the Doomsday fight? Plus Barry says that he was too soon so it's gotta be past the events of BvS.