You know what drives me crazy? Go look up the Frank Miller Wikipedia page...

You know what drives me crazy? Go look up the Frank Miller Wikipedia page. There is nothing but positives and praise down the whole thing, and the Talk page has nothing negative to say either. Then go on Google and look up what people think of Frank Miller. Praise up and down. "The greatest ARTIST of all time" and all sorts of unbelievable crap. Is... is good taste dead? Do people really believe in universal subjectivity so hard that anything is good to people as long as they want to like it? Are people in general blind to good effort, years of progress, and general morality? Do people really think good taste is completely subjective? That kind of opinion contradicts half the OTHER stuff the holder of that opinion would believe!

I'm not really sure what your point is, OP. I thought it was a separating art and artist thing but you seem to actually think Frank Miller's work is bad artistically, which is uh:
>Do people really think good taste is completely subjective?

Look, I'm gonna go off on a tangent a bit with this comic as an example. Frank Miller makes nothing but gratuitous sex and creepy, ugly crap that worships death, violence, and edginess. And his sexism knows no bounds.

The thing is, I know most people here will agree with me about the above statement. So if that's the case, I can't see why I can't get anyone to understand how I think the Bayonetta and The Binding of Isaac games are garbage.

For Bayonetta, sure, the production values are high and the gameplay seems fun and solid, but here's the thing-- both Bayonetta's and The Binding of Isaac's installments are still freaking offensive and anti-intellectual, both from a religious and either an ugliness or a sexual/sexist standpoint. I'm not asking people to necessarily agree with me that they're garbage, but I do want people to stop telling me I'm stupid for trying to explain why I think they are.

It all comes from me just wanting people to be a little tasteful; and I get peeved when people tell me I'm an idiot for kinda hating ugly, anti-intellectual, gross-loving and/or misogynistic works focused around demons, zombies, or murderous protagonists-- works such as zombie fiction, Bayonetta, Sin City, The Binding of Isaac, and a large percentage of anime and manga.

This coming from a South Park and The Boondocks fan. The difference with those? They're parodies made by people who are actually pretty progressive. Though both have bits and pieces that are a bit much for me, I admit.

I hate Frank Miller's guts and would like nothing better than for his influence in the industry to be shot and dumped in a shallow grave, but even I think you're selling his works a bit short there, OP.

Oh, it's copypasta. Oh well.

I think the inability of comics fans to separate art and artist in a lot of cases is actually a conversation worth having. Just... not on Sup Forums, most likely.

On a serious note, making an exchange student a terrorist? That's low even for Miller and this comic. Like really, I feel physically ill reading that. It's not enough that he wants to portray an entire country or an entire religion or entire culture as evil and violent. He wants to go the extra mile and say that even people from that culture who live with you, go to class with you and make friends with - they're all evil too.

Interacting with exchange students, young people from other countries, anywhere in the world is one of the most important things in life. Knowing that there's an entire world out there full of interesting, kind people, who can come from places completely alien and foreign to you, but are still just young and learning and have all the same things on their mind as young people do... that's a gorgeous little peak into what being human really looks like and how intrinsic the quality of being human is no matter where you come from or what you believe. And Frank Miller would actively discourage that. I can't be angry... just sad. It's sad that this book gives us a glimpse into the mind of someone who isn't willing or able to see that human quality, and whose always gonna live his life not knowing it. Don't be mad. He's the one who loses. Him and those like him. They're never gonna know what being human really is because they'll never look through that window into the bigger world. Actually, it reminds me of a quote from a poem by Saadi Shirazi, a Persian Muslim from the 13th Century, part of that same culture that Frank says couldn't produce anything:
"Children of Adam are limbs of the same body/and are from the same essence in their creation./When the conditions of the time hurt one of these parts/other parts will suffer from discomfort as well./If you are indifferent to the misery of others/it is not deserving to call you a human being."

>OP
Uh huh

also still not getting those ( y o u ) s, sorry

casuals gonna casual, OP, brush em off

Are you sure you didn't mean to post this on your Tumblr?

There are two kinds of casual when it comes to Frank Miller:
1) I've only read TDKR and maybe Year One and he's the best EVERRRRR
2) I've read TDKR and maybe Year One and read some internet commentary on ASBAR and heard about Holy Terror from a friend and he's the worst EVERRRRR (these are also the WHORESWHORESWHORES members)

Then there's the people who can acknowledge that he's a talented writer and artist who was hugely influential to American comics in the past, and possibly lost a step for about 10 years after 9/11, but that doesn't detract from the quality of his previous work

This is probably the most despicable piece of shit I've ever seen in a comic and it is wrong on pretty much every level. I don't care if the movie adaptation of The Dark Knight Returns is my favorite Batman movie. I f***ing hate Frank Miller because of almost everything he does, especially this goddamned garbage.

This shit made me almost regret being a Wonder Woman fan for a few minutes, too.

Did Frank Miller touch your willy without consent, user?

This this this. Good on you mate, you summed it all up quite nicely.

People shouldn't be able to have Miller discussions without having read any of his Daredevil at bare minimum. TDKR and Year One aren't enough.

OP has a vendetta against Miller.

>Do people really think good taste is completely subjective?

but that's true

>Look, I'm gonna go off on a tangent a bit with this comic as an example. Frank Miller makes nothing but gratuitous sex and creepy, ugly crap that worships death, violence, and edginess. And his sexism knows no bounds.

this is just wrong though, if you don't like Frank it's fine. I understand why you'd wanna cut ties after Holy Terror. Dude still did like half of the top 10 best comics of the 80s.

>Oh, it's copypasta. Oh well.
Fuck, I should have noticed it was from the start.

>Bayonetta, Sin City, The Binding of Isaac, and a large percentage of anime and manga.

actually you're not wrong about Sin City but I think you miss the intent and mild satire of it? it's supposed to be the most gritty over the top pulp noir. and Frank is REAL GOOD at that dialog.

also there's a handful of people who can use those dark inks as well as he can.

YOU are the one with bad taste

>he wants to portray an entire country or an entire religion or entire culture as evil and violent

Im pretty sure it is the Religion of Piss.

Because they can really piss everyone else...

Taste is subjective, but there are some indicators of quality that can be considered objective

It's just that comics criticism isn't very widely studied or written about so it's hard to have a conversation about stuff like composition and coloring and inking and line weight and shit

While I largely agree with you user, I disagree with your opinion on Bayonetta. Those games are largely fun and humorous about their sexual display as opposed to obscene in my opinion. I highly agree that's this celebration of grim tone and hyper violence in superhero story telling in trash. Heroes are for positive virtues, hope, empathy, celebration of life, a fun and idyllic setting where crime inevitably loses and larger then life role models to look to to tell us that believing in a better world is never wrong. People have become so hopeless so lacking in belief because of what they see as "harsh reality" but reality wouldn't be quite so harsh if media wasn't beating into minds with the vicious brutality displayed so casually. There is no need for Negan like violence in realistic depiction, no need for Netflix marvel to smash heads in doors and suicidal implements, no need for Batman to torture and kill. What the world needs more then ever is a Superman that saves people from accidental falls and muggings. We need heroes to look to as a bright radiant hope that humanity can flock to and know things can be better if we just believed they could.

Tbh I love the inside the book oneshot art he's been doing for TDKIII. Like, sometimes it's pretty terrible, but he just has a style to it, man

Someone should really storytime his daredevil run.

Also I agree you should be able to separate the art and the artist. I really don't care about Frank Miller as a person when looking at his work and assessing it. Also OPs beef with Miller seems to be based on some of his work being "problematic" which is bullshit for many reasons one being that stories don't need to be regulated to your tastes or your opinion or to your feelings.

>I think the Bayonetta and The Binding of Isaac games are garbage.

Oh it's just a shit opinions thread

Miller's drinking (and whatever else) killed his talent and his craft.

That period from DKR to Batman: Year One and Elektra: Assassin are great. While Elektra Lives Again might not be his greatest writing, the art (by him and Varley) is at its peak there. Sin City could be graphically interesting but eventually also succumbed to his increasing sloppiness.

I think he tried to pass off (to the public -- and possibly himself) the fiasco that DKSA is as him trying to go punk rock, but the work wasn't convincing. (he was working on it at the time he hung out at the Small Press Expo and I think that the insufferable James Kochalka filled his head with 'against craft' rationalizations).

DKSA has its moments -- that single page that has something like 25 panels on it is kind of amusing -- but if anyone not with his name would have submitted that mess to DC, it would never have been published. It was like he was consciously trying to kamikaze his legacy (in a bad way). (inb4 crash this plane with no survivors)

I can't even imagine how awkward it must have been for DC to put a stop to the Batman version of Holy Terror.

I do like Miller's crazy drunk shit-smearing ex-girlfriend, though.

Gosh that Atom one shot was a delight.

I miss Ray. I'm happy the JLA is heading right into the microverse, but we're just at a dearth for high concept science explorer heroes right now.

Anyone have his sketchbook?

so Sup Forums and tumblr are more alike then you would of thought

neither understands parody

>would of

>Do people really believe in universal subjectivity so hard that anything is good to people as long as they want to like it?

Do you even understand what you're talking about?

The parody excuse is really lame, specially when all his recent comics have sexism and are terrible.

DK3 is good

I love people who shit on Frank Miller for sexism because it shows so fucking clearly that they haven't read Give Me Liberty.

Allegations of homophobia and/or Islamophobia are a bit of a basis, homophobia less than Islamophobia though. But allegations of sexism are really fucking dumb.

Also, have they read Born Again, when Daredevil needs TWO women to save him? Or Carrie Kelly in The Dark Knight Returns, Strikes Again, and Master Race?

But yeah user, I agree with you.

>People shouldn't be able to have Miller discussions without having read any of his Daredevil at bare minimum. TDKR and Year One aren't enough.

Agreed. Also, read AT LEAST Sin City too. [spoilers]I'm talking about The Hard Goodbye, but when it came it was just Sin City[/spoiler]

No it isn't. Year One/Sandman/From Hell/etc are objectively, measurably better than Identity Crisis or the Rape of Sue Dibny arc.

>Islamophobia
I honestly never got that, he hates radical Islam, but doesn't give a shit abut Islam itself. In an interview he compared it to the Inquisition, the use of religion for evil

I've seen the same people bitch about Frank Miller's islamophobia and whores obsession during the BvS shit, but then they turned around to praise him for DareDevil where he's swimming in trim.

I'm saying people can see "problematic" things in what he said. But the arguments of sexism are fucking retarded especially when you look at Martha Washington.

No, it isn't.

>Or Carrie Kelly in The Dark Knight Returns, Strikes Again, and Master Race?

Explain Wonder Woman characterization.

>Explain Wonder Woman characterization.

She hates all Men apart from Superman cause she's an amazon.

Also, nice quints.

Explain how Martha Washington is sexist? Or Carrie Kelly?

>For Bayonetta, sure, the production values are high and the gameplay seems fun and solid,
Bayonetta's gameplay is some of the best in the entire action genre of video games.

Also, Bayonetta's universe and setting is much more intelligent than people give it credit for and the character of Bayonetta herself is actually a pretty good example of a strong female protagonist.

But ultimately, Bayonetta's gameplay is phenomenal, meaning the game itself is good, period, no matter what you may think of other elements of the game.