Why does Marvel seem so incapable of realizing that the largest flaw in their comics and their inability to launch new...

Why does Marvel seem so incapable of realizing that the largest flaw in their comics and their inability to launch new characters that capture even a fracture of the notoriety of their A list properties is the massive oversaturation of crossovers and the reliance on shared universes?

Spider-Man up until just recently has been Marvel's definitive hero and largest most popular property. For contrast Batman is DC's biggest and most popular property (despite Superman being the face of the company so to speak). What do the two have in common? They each have their own individual mythos which exists in the larger context of their shared comic universes. They have a fleshed out supporting cast, a rogues gallery, a stable of classic stand alone stories, and in Batman's case a dedicated setting where most if not all of his stories take place. This individual mythos still holds up and functions even when removed from the context of their larger universes, which is why the two of them are so easily adapted into solo films and cartoons.

This is where all of Marvel's newest comics are failing. They introduce new characters, and then those characters are instantly pitted against general pre-existing villains with no ties to them, put on a team, and their only supporting cast is reduced to other heroes in the same position.

Marvel's most recent success story is Kamala, and it's a prevailing opinion that her book dropped in quality drastically when it started being co-opted by events and she joined multiple teams that marginalized her supporting cast. Ghost Rider was great because it was largely self contained and arguably a return to form (ANGR almost feels like a more violent reimagining of a lot of dynamics found in classic Spider-Man) and now it's also being ruined by crossovers.

Are we still pretending that Kamala didn't have a fucking ton of guest appearances in her first volume and that cast isn't still a huge part of the book?

It's been said before, but I'll say it again. Marvel is less concerned with making characters people like and is more concerned with making political commentaries. Which is fine, I guess, considering that a lot of classic characters started that way, but that's the thing isn't it? Those characters were standalone. They had to rely on their own merit and not ride off the success of others. So when you try to push this political agenda on fans of pre-existing characters, by essentially spitting on the characters they're fans of they get upset.

You're argument is spot on and completely correct, but Kamala was never good.

She may not have been good, but she did originate as a largely stand alone character at first (sans a wolverine and a spidey team up, which are so ubiquitous it's not wrong to think of them as a right of passage) and that was a huge contributor to her popularity regardless of the book's actual quality.

>Marvel will probably bring back the Runaways now
>This will happen to them

Anyone treating Kamala as being out of the ordinary is delusional and not worth addressing

>guest spot with wolverine, lockjaw, Medusa, loki, captain america, and Carol
>two civil war tie ins, with end of days, and lovers
>cross over with spider-man, AOS, and Inhumans

>Kamalafags act like she was this unknown underground hero that never interacted with anybody until ANAD

When you say "largely" stand alone, I'm assuming you mean the fact that she had the Miss Marvel name and brand recognition as a jump-start from the very beginning, but I'm inclined to disagree there and say it was the reverse was the case: that she was largely a legacy character having an initial boost from a name with long history (plus diversity) and her having her own plot unrelated to Carol being very welcome, but still secondary, bonus.

Sadly this same thing applies to Robbie. One of the main reasons the writers don't build a proper plot and setting around their protagonists is that the character itself already has a name with weight on it so why bother? Just throw them into the developed superhero world and have them tag along with the main hitters and throw them a villain from the countless already existing ones.

Really: Black Spider-Man, Sam Nova, Ms. Marvel, Asian Hulk, Iron Heart, Hawkeye, Fem Thor, Young Cyclops, Gwen Poole, Robbie Rider, etc etc. Let alone creating an original character, can these people even risk making a character branched of an established hero below the B-listers? There was that kid who was a hero with a Sentinel triggering mutants left and right, he even had a solo, but he got quickly shanked because his name wasn't powerful enough. There were also the Avengers Academy kids, who were mostly original plus the supposed bastard kid of Taskmaster, and they also got gutted.

I would also welcome a new hero that wasn't immediatly made an official Avenger and partied with Captain America after his or her second bank robbery. I loved how in G.L.A. they tried to recruit some heroes for their team and then we had two entire pages of nothing but A to E listers telling them to fuck off.

I wonder how many people realize that the name is intentionally almost ANGER

It's more complicated than that.
Books like Moon Girl suffer from what you describe, but also because they don't use the extended universe elements in creative ways. They exist in obligation rather than as support and surprises.

I kind of see where you're coming from.

All these new characters and legacy teens they've thrown at us have had almost no time to themselves to develop and grow. They're introduced, then they never actually get around to doing anything (Robbie being a prime example) or they're immediately thrown into constant team-ups and events (Kamala, Sam, Miles). How are readers supposed to care about a hero and their own stories when they barely get any stories to themselves?

Robbie is kind of different though. Aside from his own ANGR run and Ghost Racers, I don't recall seeing him -anywhere-. It's like outside of his own book, he doesn't even exist. Hell, he barely exists in his current book. I don't know if that's applied to the other Riders just because of the nature of their characters, but they're easy to forget about when they don't have a book going and never show up anywhere else.

You make a convincing argument, but I think the truth is they are just afraid to take a chance on new ideas that aren't slapstick or total crapshoots. They can't launch a new title without a marketing division, an ad budget, and focus testing out the ass unless its a one shot or side project by a popular artist.

Every minute a dev team spends working on a new project causes them to lose money, with no guarantee on returns.

There is a limited market share of comics and if you replace one ip with another people are just going to buy one or the other, not both.

Marvel's being smart with Robbie.

They know he has a completely different kind of appeal than the others and they don't have Ghost Rider film rights, so they're playing the long game and making him non-essential to other stories and keeping options open to rename him if need be. It's how they SHOULD approach the others, so it's sad that he gets mostly good treatment because he's an outlier.

Miles is just a cheap marketing gimmick to tap into a minority sales demographic. Taking a well known property and slapping a new coat of paint over their skin isn't just cynical, its cheap and shoddy.

That action punch near the end looks fucking terrible, like its from freakazoid or something.

I think its insulting. Your basically turning spiderman into a time share so he can be "black spiderman". Poor fucking black kids don't even get their own superheroes.

>Aside from his own ANGR run and Ghost Racers, I don't recall seeing him -anywhere-.

Which I do find kinda weird. You'd think that Danny would've looked him up when Johnny went to talk with him. Then again, Danny seems to be largely forgotten these days.

Marketing wise, yeah.
But the actual genesis of the character is Bendis wanting a Spider-Man his kids can look up to, which is honestly even worse.

Are you still talking about you're knock off korean ghostrider? Who the fuck is Robbie?

the shit writers tell themselves to get through the day. You're here to sell toys, you shill. Get back to work.

No, it's a great panel. The problem is the previous panel should have been Robbie pulling back his fist as a windup instead of a closeup on the dude's face

>they don't have Ghost Rider film rights
user, the Ghost Rider film rights have been with Marvel since 2013. Robbie even had an arc dedicated to him on AoS. What the fuck are you talking about?

test

I don't think you should make a flaming skull demon kid friendly. Hes a skull demon. From hell. Who punishes sinners.

Guy is not a role model.

My only real issue is the fact that he's pretty much non-essential in his own run right now. I appreciate that he's not being whored out all over the place in team books and crossovers like Kamala and Cho, but I'd like his own run to be a little more focused on him.

I liked the setup ANGR had going and I supported it the whole way through, even though the writing wasn't the best and Tradd Moore got replaced with Damien Scott, who I've never liked as an artist. But even if Robbie isn't being shoved into everything, his current run is getting that same shit shoved into it. He's practically a guest feature, given the lack of focus on him in his own damned book.

I'm hoping it goes back to form after Four on the Floor ends, but I know better than to hope for anything from Marvel these days.

Robbie doesn't "fit" with Marvel's progressive agenda because of his violent nature, hence he isn't involved with their diversity pushes.

I'd be infinitely more tolerant of the new Circle of Four stuff if it was either 1) not the first arc of a new run or 2) clearly a launch pad for a full Circle of Four book running alongside GR also by Smith with Robbie as primary protagonist/team leader but there's no new FF solicits anywhere to be seen.

>You're here to keep the brand valuable
Fixed that for you.

The artists are the ones in charge of making things toyetic. The writers are tasked with keeping brands relevant either through shock tactics or decent writing (usually the former)

Just pretend it's a piggybacked mini so people will actually buy it.
Because that's what it is

>Marvel's most recent success story is Kamala, and it's a prevailing opinion that her book dropped in quality drastically when it started being co-opted by events and she joined multiple teams that marginalized her supporting cast. Ghost Rider was great because it was largely self contained and arguably a return to form (ANGR almost feels like a more violent reimagining of a lot of dynamics found in classic Spider-Man) and now it's also being ruined by crossovers.- 29 posts and 2 image replies shown.

I really liked Ms Marvel first run and liked part of the second but I stopped bothering when the avengers shit and champions garbage became more apparent even in her solo run and then the small supporting cast was basically replaced or not seeing again despite having some interest story lines going... I hope this picks up this year.

I wonder what the reaction from the Left would be if Black Panther were replaced by a white dude.

And this is why everyone is having trouble with this whole diversity thing. They aren't their own heroes, they have nothigng. Not an original name, power, villain, setting, backstory, everything. It's as if suddenly Peter was black and no one acknowledged that. We're getting same comic books we would end up getting with protags swapped, not said protags having their own story. For example, despite Bat Family being, well, a family, you can't mistake Batman for Nightwing or Red hood, you can tell clearly that Batgirl and Batwoman are different heroes, even if a part of same family. Marvel didn't get the memo, apparently.

>his kids can look up to
He should meet with Kojima
His son hates Metal Gear, that's just how kids are, in their fucked up brain their parents are the most uncool ones

>Not an original name, power, villain, setting, backstory, everything.
Robbie's got everything but the name, and that's just people calling him that because he has a skull head.

Yeah, I agree, Robbie does have his own thing and that's exactly how legacies should be. You take the mantle and honor it in your own, unique way, while still upholding some core principles, copying everything down to the point where people getting the very same comic book without their favorite heroes is just pointless, new heroes should get new stories, is it that hard to understand for Marvel? Hell, recent Harley got this guy, Eddie, who copied Joker so perfect he actually had Harley fooled, the very girl that was obsessed with him. She found out eventually and just killed the bastard. Now I can't help but draw parallels.
Was that DC roasting Marvel? A nobody takes mantle of a famous character and just ends up dead, there has to be at least some deeper thought in this

Cho had it as well, but it all got dumped in favour of turning him into a legacy hero.

Another thing that sucks of these legacy characters is that they come out of fucking nowhere. Look at Venom, the Scarlet Spiders or Warmachine, they worked because they emerged organically from the parent brand's plot. What I'm saying is: if you're going to make a legacy character, fucking invest on them and their relationship with the original for a decent amount of time.

People have might like or dislike the Falcon becoming Captain America, but no one can say it came out of nowhere.

I'd agree with you if Robbie wasn't a character in Agents of SHIELD.

They're probably avoiding using Johnny and Danny because of fear of association with those shit Nic Cage movies though.

Ghost Rider and Ms Marvel have fucking secret identities. So few heroes have them anymore in Marvel that the very idea feels new and novel again suddenly. For fuck's sake people don't even have superhero names anymore they're just all on a first name basis using their civvy names.

The one big thing Ghost Rider is missing is a developed rogue's gallery. The first enemy he fought was that gang leader, but he was just a stooge for Mr. Hyde. Afterwards he fought Johnny Blaze who enlightened him about what he really is, and then the first run ended with Robbie fighting against Eli after he possessed Gabe (Eli being Robbie's source of power and a reoccuring villain in and of himself feels cool at least). The back up issue from this run's first issue introduced an all new enemy for him in Pyston Nitro, but it's not as if she's been fleshed out at all.

He's got a very Peter Parker esque supporting cast. A school bully, a red head civvy love interest who doesn't know he's ghost rider but gets dragged into danger by associating with him, Gabe's sort of an aunt May figure, as his only family relative he has a lot of responsibility caring for. What Ghost Rider has that Peter doesn't have is his very own town. The public's perception of Peter was huge in his books, but in the end he still shared NYC with other heroes. Robbie is the ONLY hero in Hillrock Heights, and they're already playing with a lot of cool stuff. Ghost Rider is becoming a kind of urban legend in the town, he's become the sort of "devil you know" like in the current run when the gangbangers Robbie normally kills shows up in response to Cho and Laura. Next he fights the LAPD who can't ignore his existence any more.

Like, imagine if Spider-Man was morally ambiguous and some of the awful shit the Bugle was publishing about him wasn't necessarily untrue. now all Robbie needs is an actual stable of rogues, preferably ones with actual thematic ties to him. From racers to gangs to angels.

Pls come back Carnage-Man.

>Peter never built the confederate flag statue perpetually playing free bird

Fucker, I bet Spock would have done it.

>Any original hero, their sidekick or a decent legacy character
Decent origins story (Batman Year One), tenfold so for a sidekick because there might be decades of development and stories.
>Marvels "legacy"
This person gots power because reasons, meets up with his predecessor and suddenly replaces them, little to no training, little to no connection with the hero you supposed to have that connection because you are fucking replacing him for fucks sake and nothing new in their stories making the very reason legacies are written for completely pointless. This is why I'm not bitching about Laura, it makes sense, so I'm not complaining.
Hell, you can even write Mighty Whore in a decent character, just replace Jane Foster, fucking normie who is suddenly worthy by fucking Asgardian standarts (Odin standarts on top of that, he was making those enchantments) with Syf, you know, that woman from Asgard that can be totally worthy and stuff. No, it has to be someone, for whom this liberal indoctrination would be an actual fucking backstory instead of a personality!

He's also suddenly a Chad in several books

>Robbie isn't a "REAL" Ghost Rider because of the fact he isn't a spirit of vengeance
>visually distinct from classic ghost riders, has a car instead of a bike
>has a very down to earth setting instead of tangling with supernatural shit like Johnny and Danny
>different powerset from Johnny and Danny, constantly evolving and changing appearance in response to his powers growing

Robbie feels like he could just eventually adopt his own title and evolve beyond being a strict ghost rider legacy despite the similarities. You know a tangentially related but still separate hero, like Night Wing compared to Batman.

Hell, I'm surprised nobody is calling him Ghost Driver instead.

A new iteration of a character coming out of nowhere is fine as long as it's written well. Look at Johnny Storm, Jason Todd, Danny Ketch, Jaime Reyes, etc.

Hell, Danny is pretty much everything everyone is complaining about, but people love him.

>Hell, I'm surprised nobody is calling him Ghost Driver instead.

That's more accurate but it's also vastly uncooler.

Ghost Rider sounds better.
Shit, they might be better off just rechristening Johnny and Danny as the Spirit(s) of Vengeance. Wouldn't be the first time a Ghost Rider lost his name to a new guy.

I think the lack of a rogues gallery is what's really damaging to a lot of newer heroes. Unlike most of them, Robbie really is in a place to develop his own independent of the rest of the greater shared universe. If he gets that, he'll be set because they can easily build off of everything else he already has simply by having such a unique setting/circumstance.

It's what should have been done with Kamala but they blew that already. Robbie being less popular and tumblr-marketable is actually helping him here.

Sif had a solo book and it was fucking great. It sold better than Captain Marvel but still got the axe because of Marvel trying to push Carol as their Wonder Woman, and I'll never forgive them for that.

I've noticed and it makes zero sense, given the character's entire history.

>Hell, Danny is pretty much everything everyone is complaining about, but people love him.

90's was a good time for legacy characters for some reason.

Then judging by Sif and Robbie it's possible there'a guy or two at Marvel who want to write decent stories while realising SJW ideas, but in actually readable format. It's just they aren't proggressive enough and get axed or processed into same drivel.

Cho is an ascended sidekick. He's the modern Rick Jones.

Marvel gave Robbie a dedicated AoS arc (would've been a whole season if not for the budget) and a solo Christmas Special (not even a shared mega volume like Gwenpool's).They must want him to succeed on some level despite the lack of success of his book.

Well no one is fucking buying their books so it makes sense.

Does Miles have his own rogues yet?

Spider-Man #1 had him oneshot Blackheart after he bodied the Avengers.

What do you think?

Does Captain Hydra count?

not him but
>its a great panel
Its definitely not.
look at his fucking body posture. his legs arent in a punching posture, hes in like a fully extended sprint

>his legs arent in a punching posture, hes in like a fully extended sprint
Yeah? That's kinda it. He's coming at them fast and hard and thrusts his back leg forward as he continues in the next panel. The issue in communication is that he's too close in panel 2.

>implying Miles is being developed as an individual and isn't just being set up to assume Peter's place wholesale while Peter ditches his entire cast and rogue's gallery to do this Parker Industries stint

panel 2 gives the impression of him just standing there, no movement because grabbing the dudes hand to crush it.

you dont pause the momentum from a full sprint to stop to grab a dudes hand and crush it.


the page could be done better

>Guy is not a role model.
>IM-FUCKING-PLYING
With the state of Marvel "heroes" the Ghost Riders are some of the most heroic and selfless characters of the universe.

I like to think thats his "hulk" side: the confident chad, kindof like how jessica turns into a slut as she hulk.

Fuck I remember I came up with a couple of villains he could fight, but I probably would never get the chance to write for marvel

>Jessica

Civil War 2 and ANAD are concurrent
Every single comic running got an End of Days

Name an original title created after 1990 that isn't a legacy that is successful.
The only two I can think of are Hitman (which has a batman/joker crossover in the first arc, so that disqualifies it according to certain autists in this thread) and Runaways

>layout, expressions, action lines, "special effects" (fire, gunshots, explosions, shattered glass etc), colors are all excellent
>page isn't very good because one panel transition isn't a perfect 10
This Sup Forums tier mentality of "if it isn't absolutely perfect it's garbage" is so retarded

Deadpool? He's a ripoff character so it shouldn't count, but he kind of became his own thing

>lives just outside of the city of angels
>fights gangsters ruining his town
>is a hell monster
>doesn't fight Nathan Copeland style angel themed gangsters secretly led by ACTUAL angels

>civilly discussing how posture and panel transition are kind of clunky without even mentioning thoughts about any other part of the page or art is calling the entire thing garbage
yeah sound about right you retard

Aztek was one of those critical successes, but sold like shit books.

>panel 2 gives the impression of him just standing there
That's exactly the point I made; he's too close

>you dont pause the momentum from a full sprint to stop to grab a dudes hand and crush it.
This, however, is wrong. I can sketch it in a few hours when I get off work, but if Robbie reaches outward it looks fine.

>exactly point i made
I agree with you, hes wayyy too close, but i am also saying the posing fails to show the kind of momentum he should have from the sprint, it looks like he is taking a small step with his left foot, not in the middle of a sprint

if you look at his elbow in panel 2, its a relatively small angle, looks like the gun is maybe 8 inches to the right from his head and hes stepping in on the left.
If the arm was going fully forward and not to the side and without that much of an elbow bend, it might have worked

Considering a huge chunk of Marvel's "original" properties are Spider-Man, FF and X-Men spinoffs, this is kind of a loaded question.

Like, until they killed Logan, Laura was about as "original" as Frank or Venom or Kazar. You'd probably count Patsy as one of those old "original" characters even though she's a combination recycling of an old character AND legacy hero. Robbie may as well not even be called Ghost Rider, but you'd likely dismiss him while accepting Vision, a literal ass robo-copy of an existing character.

You're arguing semantics for no reason. I even said in the post you're replying to that you'd have to change his pose.

Reading this thread I finally went and gave All New Ghost Rider a read.

Just finished issue 11 and JESUS FUCKING CHRIST MY BRAIN IS MELTING FROM PURE ANGER.

I must say, this has been quite the read, and Robbie is truly a legacy character done right.

>Good origin story, everything begins and develops on his own and it takes several issue before OG Ghost Rider gets involved
>When he does, he advances the fuck out of the plot and then gives Robbie guidance before leaving him to continue growing on his own.
>Robbie readily accepts the Ghost Rider name out of seemingly pure admiration and gratitude to Blaze, rather than disturbing fanboyism like Kamala or pure entitlement like Miles
>Apparent sign of a future rogue gallery all for himself, starting with the now crippled wigger and the ever present menace of Eli.

Bretty gud.

Now that I've vented I'll keep on going.

I don't know why Sup Forums insists ANGR is only good for the art. The art is definitely the highlight but the writing certainly isn't bad.

moom girl is seen as another token characther , to bad marlel used here in the swj era

Robbie > Kamala, ever since the beggining, I just hope the current arc finishes to start focusing in Robbie.

>Every single comic running got an End of Days
No they didn't. only loki, magneto, silver surfer, and Kamala.

It's not bad, but it's not super great either. It was enough to keep me reading but it's disappointing to realise that it could be so much better.

Smith is currently writing the new ongoing, but the first arc so far has mostly been just another Chulk and friends book. I can't want for it to end so we can get back to Robbie proper.