Tell me,Sup Forums
>How can one write their MC to not be a Mary Sue?
>Are jobbers unavoidable in a group or league of superheroes?
>How can a romance subplot be not only tolerable but interesting?
>How should power levels be balanced,if at all?
>Are antagonists with a tragic background that justifies their behaviour a tired cliche?
>Whats the textbook example of how to handle a story involving multiple superheroes working together and all of them getting decent screentime?
Give them actual flaws. Basically, come up with personal problems for your character, then make sure that none of them seem like they'd be part of an OC made by Sheldon Cooper.
good album m8
>How can one write their MC to not be a Mary Sue?
First, be aware that people might call your character a Mary Sue even if they're not. Don't lose sleep over it. Analyze their criticisms, see if you can get to the heart of what they mean; if they're using the term correctly, make improvements, but they also might not be. A character isn't a Mary Sue just because they're competent or the chosen one. There's a world of difference between Luke Skywalker and, say, Rey.
As to your actual question: Flaws. Weaknesses. Insecurities. Failures. Your character doesn't need to be a total and consistent fuckup, that can be an opposite kind of bad, but they should have foibles. Spider-Man has one of the most rounded powersets imaginable but he's haunted by guilt, torn by his responsibilities, and has trouble keeping his personal life in order. Aang is the Avatar, the most powerful being in the universe, but he's also a 12 year old boy unsure about the responsibility and prone to immaturity, jealousy, and naivety.
Something that helps is don't have characters praise your character incessantly. Not only is it grating, it's usually a tell-tale sign of a Mary Sue (again, Rey).
>>How can one write their MC to not be a Mary Sue?
Make sure that they have a flaw that influences their character arc. A superficial flaw like being short-tempered doesn't really count against Mary Sue status unless it actively works to their detriment. We need to see them fail due to their own faults.
>>Are jobbers unavoidable in a group or league of superheroes?
Basically. Just don't overdo it on one character, and try to make the reasons they job believable instead of them just flopping with little expalanation.
>>How can a romance subplot be not only tolerable but interesting?
By being well written.
>>How should power levels be balanced,if at all?
They should not. Don't try to drag everyone to the same level with plot armor. Don't be afraid to have weaker characters let stronger ones take over.
>>Are antagonists with a tragic background that justifies their behaviour a tired cliche?
No. They've been around as long as fiction itself.
>>Whats the textbook example of how to handle a story involving multiple superheroes working together and all of them getting decent screentime?
That's subjective enough that I can't answer it. Some might say Watchmen, The Avengers, almost any decent team book would qualify.
>Are jobbers unavoidable in a group or league of superheroes?
To an extent, maybe, but it doesn't have to be Martian Manhunter or Worf levels of obvious. First, don't make a character so powerful that they have to be written around or written as incompetent so that they don't stomp every threat (Justice League sometimes had this problem because Martian Manhunter has basically of Superman's powers PLUS telepathy PLUS shapeshifting, if he didn't instantly crumple like toilet paper he might conceivably one shot most threats).
If you have a team of superheroes, you can also have them take turns so it's not just one guy getting the punching bag treatment.
Finally, your villain doesn't have to beat up somebody so we know they're a threat. That can work, but you can also get creative with your villain introductions. See if you can make some menacing without them lifting a finger. To go back to Avatar, we don't actually see Firelord Ozai until, what, the third season? But everything we learn about him up to that point is enough to paint a serious enough picture that he's a serious threat before he ever gets off his throne. (Him scarring Zuko isn't Zuko jobbing)
>>Whats the textbook example of how to handle a story involving multiple superheroes working together and all of them getting decent screentime?
You can debate the quality of it, but MCU Avengers (the first one) is a good example of team balance. Everybody has something going on, everybody has a stake in seeing the villain go down, and while the screentime is far from evenly balanced, there's a decent chunk of time for everyone to develop their own plot.
Write flaws and shortcomings and character growth or a story which doesn't take itself too seriously.
Jobbers are only an issue when they seem to be the designated loser like Wolverine.
Just write an interesting romance don't have it take focus from more interesting plots. Also don't make a character all about their romance subplot
It's about stories not power levels though it might be wise to think ahead and not give characters powers that can solve any plot obviously and quickly.
Cliches are what they are. Not bad or good just tools.
>Make sure that they have a flaw that influences their character arc. A superficial flaw like being short-tempered doesn't really count against Mary Sue status unless it actively works to their detriment. We need to see them fail due to their own faults.
Not OP, but I've got a question related to this. Can the character ever overcome this flaw? I'm talking in it being the main driving force of the story.
Yeah, but keep it to the end of the story, obviously.
Yes that's a character arc.
>mary sue
has part of the answer, but not all of it.
What makes a Mary Sue, in my opinion, is not how competent they are, but how entertaining.
I'm entirely fine with Superman being essentially an unfailing perfect figure in All-Star Superman because there's a lot of scenes where, despite that, you get to feel for the character, to empathize with him and root for him. Even if there's no actual flaws within him.
So it doesn't matter how good he or she is: what matters is how well written he or she is.
>jobbers, power levels
All of this is only a problem when it actively contradicts something estabilishes before. Just write a good story and make characters as strong as you feel they should be.
>romance subplot
Like any other subplot. Write it well, don't make it the focus of everything and steal from the main plot, don't make it ridicolously cheesy and pull you out of an otherwise interesting story.
>antagonists with tragic background
Eeeh. About as tired a cliche as purely evil villains. It's not about what's cliche and what's not, it's about what's *entertaining* and what's not. You can have a good sympathetic villain or a good unsympathetic villain.
>well written story with superhero squad
No idea. Don't read much of that kinda stuff. I was about to say The Boys, but I'm not sure it's what you're thinking about.
The Boys is primarily about Hughie and Butcher anyways. The rest of the team is supporting cast.
Also, nice album. Their best, if you ask me.
You ever listened to Queens Of The Stone Age or Death From Above 1979? Similiar but heavier. You might like em.
>How can a romance subplot be not only tolerable but interesting?
Have the characters be interesting and engaging. We don't HAVE to like them, but we NEED to enjoy watching them, even if it's just because we love to hate them.
Make sure the two have chemistry, a back and forth, some reason to actually be interested in one another beyond just the initial physical attraction. Let the romance blossom; let us see the different stages of their relationship, don't just skip to the good parts. Unless the whole story is about the romance, don't make the whole story about the romance - there's nothing more annoying than an awkward romance sideplot that keeps getting in the way of the interesting bits.
There's no one formula, but if you pull it off well, it can be supremely satisfying. Just give us a reason for us to want them to be together and you're halfway there.
>How should power levels be balanced,if at all?
Rock Papers Scissors. Tank Healer DPS. etc. If you have a team, try to have the abilities compliment each other, without one being so superior. Conversely, give the antagonists powers that counteract or frustrate the protagonists' abilities.
Also, be extremely careful with doling out new abilities like candy. Let your characters be clever with how they use their abilities (a flying brick might rip through buildings or destroy floors/walls/stairs to catch a fleeing villain), but don't pull something of your ass just because you wrote yourself into a corner. Characters can get new abilities, but try and make it a natural extension, and not something so OP it should utterly break any fight thereafter.
Jojo is a good example - both ways. Araki is not immune to the asspull (GER). However, when his writing is at its best, it's supremely satisfying to watch two characters with defined stands battling not through sheer power, but cleverly applying their powers to try and outmaneuver the others, like Josuke vs. Kira in Part 4.
>Whats the textbook example of how to handle a story involving multiple superheroes working together and all of them getting decent screentime?
Try Ostrander's Suicide Squad and Barr's Batman and the Outsiders. Working together is good, but those books are also excellent examples of how to give each character their own arcs and developments, sometimes related to the team and sometimes external.
Yeah, which is why I wasn't sure. Butcher would probably fit the Mary Sue question now that I think about it, he's hyper competent and often fellated by the plot, but never too grating because he's genuinely interesting.
Holy shit yes, how did I not think of Ostrander's SS. That's a very good example.
>Are antagonists with a tragic background that justifies their behaviour a tired cliche?
Never. Never ever.
Now, there's cliche ways of doing it. If you give us just a generic "My family is dead, now I'm going to destroy the universe because nothing else matters!" type baddie, sure, people will call foul, but it's all in the execution. The same goes for a bad guy who just likes being bad.
Take Nox. I haven't seen Wak Fu yet, but everybody seems to love the bastard and, guess what, tragic backstory. As long as it fits the story you're telling, the setting you're using, and you flesh out the villain enough to make him his own character, of course it can work. It'll never go out of style.
>Whats the textbook example of how to handle a story involving multiple superheroes working together and all of them getting decent screentime?
Avatar, though not superheroes, basically has superhumans. Avengers Earth's Mightiest Heroes, at least the first season. Justice League and Justice League Unlimited don't always get the balance perfectly, but it's the damned closest I think anyone could come given the massive cast of characters and powers on display.
And, of course, The Incredibles. The gold fucking standard of the genre.
>Whats the textbook example of how to handle a story involving multiple superheroes working together and all of them getting decent screentime?
While a comedy, Superior Foes of Spider-Man is also not a bad place to look.
Oh yeah. I second this.
DON'T MOCK THE SHOCKER
Whats your favorite song out of it?
Kirby and Lee's FF. They're so good at it; you hardly notice.
Further, FF 1-100 and about the same run on ASM do everything the OP is asking about very well, but in obvious enough ways that they defintely both merit study.
Good answers so far
Not really,Its good but Humbug is better
A bit off-topic, but is it me or does the guy on the cover remind me of Adam Sandler?
>Are jobbers unavoidable in a group or league of superheroes?
You use the word "jobber" like it's a bad thing but making the other guy look good is a very important job.
at the expense of the least favorable character? Maybe
The term 'Mary Sue' is so overused and ill-defined that it should be avoided at all costs. If someone accuses your character of being one, ignore them until they can make a more pointed criticism.
Are you implying that Mary Sue is a non-arguement?
No, I'm directly saying that 'Mary Sue' is a non-argument.
>Avengers
>balance
"Cap"
Lmao @ ur delusion
Is it okay for a masked villain to not be any grand mystery?
As in, who they are absolutely doesn't matter and when they take the mask off it's not supposed to be any kind of surprise or shock?
great album imo
Depends on the story and if his unmasking would impact it,if you want your character to have a mask for purely aesthetic reasons then its perfectly fine
Fair enough
TONITE THERE'LL BE SOME LOVE
>Mary Sue isn't a relevant concern for writers, it's a whiny needy fanboy complaint. If your story is well written they'll suck your dick in the end even if your protagonist is juggling planets. What's important is keeping characterizarion grounded and consistant, and sustaining tension, the big things that Mary Sues are accused of ruining. Like, Rey is pretty close to being a Mary Sue but it's far from being the worst sin the film commits, and really is a meme at this point.
>Consistency is key here. You want to make all your characters around the same level, and you want them to be varied in power type. Jobbing is what happens to characters who aren't considered interesting enough to carry a particular plot line on their own.
>Well written. Duh. Understand your audience, understand your purpose, and make sure that it doesn't overstay its welcome.
>Power levels don't need to be flattened out entirely, but if you're going to have a wide ensemble of characters you'd best be making good use of them. Ergo, it's key to give them unique abilities to distinguish them from other characters, keeping them relevant to the plot even if they aren't the strongest guy in the room.
>Explain =/= justify. It's never bad to understand your villain's motives, even if they're as simple as "be da bad guy cuz im da bad guy". Motives drive character, character drives plot. It does get exhausting, though, when a character commits crimes against humanity and is forgiven by the cast because their daddy never really loved them.
>Batman The Brave and the Bold and Justice League Unlimited are my go to picks, though they're kind of cheating. For Sup Forums examples, I'd say that Joey Jo's Wacky Mishaps Parts 4 is the best at giving all of its protagonists (besides one) chances to shine in the story.
SO WHO'S DAT GURL THERE
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"Mary Sue" isn't a disease it's a symptom.
Take Rey. The reason why her inexplicable prowess in advanced force techniques and slightly more explicable technical skills stick out like a sore thumb is because Rey is a boring character otherwise. She's "modern strong female protagonist" with all the usual brooding, lack of agency tied with inexplicable plot centrality, ass-kicking, and blandness that implies. You could swap her for Jyn in Rogue One or hell, Katniss Everdeen in the Hunger Games and the story would play exactly the same. Maybe she comes onto her own like Luke did in Episode V, Rian could pull it off, but as is she isn't interesting enough to warrant how good she is.
Do I wanna know?
Sure. You can always squeeze a lot of drama and intrigue by playing up the mask, of course, but if you're opposed to it, you can just let it be.
>>How can one write their MC to not be a Mary Sue?
Don't make them a consistent fuckup, but make sure that they have flaws and mental blindspots that consistently show up leading to negative consequences. And make it so that people the MC knows have a diverse opinion of him/her and their actions. Maybe 60% of people think he's great, maybe a fellow superhero thinks that your MC is too moody or arrogant. Maybe your MC holds grudges for longer than they should.
>How should power levels be balanced if at all?
See, I'm a fan of a hero who mostly works alone, so power level balancing isn't the biggest worry for me. But, I'd say make sure that you've got some idea about what their limits are or what stops them from scaling in power infinitely.
Depends. People don't really care what Dr. Claw looks like, but civilians would care what Batman looks like under the mask, because there's constant emphasis on maintaining secret identity. If your character wears a mask, it has to be for a reason. If you don't want this character to be a previously established character, you can still play up the mystery behind who this man is without offering closure
Yeah so long as you don't tease a msystery that implies his identity is relevant. Though be warned people will create a mystery where there is none. Like I used to care who Slade was then I realized his identity was inconsequential since it's not like there's anyone he could be that would matter.
While we're collecting opinions, is there a certain suspension of disbelief you have for how different a world can be before you feel it should really have a domino effect even if it's a comedic series?
Archer is one of them and maybe Maus
>good album m8
>Not really,Its good
Are you actually retarded?
>tfw other people know Arctic Monkeys
Your reading comprehension is bad and so is your taste. They are both good though.
Wouldn't be the first time. I can't think of a specific example right now but I know this has been done.
Are you saying you're fine with it or you don't like the inconsistencies?
Cobra Commander
They're the most popular hipster band of the generation
Who doesn't listen to a few of their songs nowadays
Almost anyone I know. In my area at least they're not well known. A couple of songs from AM got some radio play when it released but other than that I don't think almost anyone in my area has even heard of them.
They're not exactly obscure.
Well they certainly arent as popular now as they were for sure
I'd argue that Jyn in Rogue One's problem is that she fails to connect emotionally with the audience, not with what you mentioned. Rogue One is essentially a story told from the perspective of the MacGuffin.
Here's a tip: if a character doesn't have a clear role in the story, write them out of it. Forcing in something for them to do never works and just adds boring fluff.
In Joe Kelly's JLA arc Obsidian Age, the 7 Leaguers each have a really clear part in the climax, EXCEPT for Flash, who doesn't have anything interesting to do at this point except waste panels, so Kelly wisely writes him out of the fight early. Not every story is going to be able to accommodate your entire team, so don't be afraid to be flexible.
In terms of jobbers, they job for two reasons: 1) to show the scale of a new threat, which can be done other ways. And 2) to write them out of a fight they have no place in. In many JLA stories, the role of the big guy who fights the evil big guy is usually Superman. If there's not another big guy for Martian Manhunter to punch, well, looks like someone's gonna have to throw some fire on him. Again, don't be afraid to do this-- if the character doesn't have a specific role in the resolution of the climax, get them out of it.
Are we even suppose to connect with her at all?
Best song imo
I think focusing on telling an interesting story first and for most would be the best.
Dune is the best story about a Mary Sue. He's got everyone else's powers and the fiercest army in the universe... then uses them to slaughter the galaxy and become a worse dictator than the previous. Dune is about how super-heroes suck. You should read it.
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A fictional world needs to embrace it's strangeness or else what's the point? I could be watching anything else.
Good point
Those are the best kind of masked villains. Having their identity be only an anecdote or unelaborated creates the implication that anyone can become that villain. As a matter of fact most villains lose a lot of their intimidation and interesting qualities once they're unmasked, with the most notorious examples being Amon and Tobi. Imagine how much more impactful and chilling Amons character would've been if he had never been unmasked? If he really had been just someone who had been wronged by benders and started a movement out of his misfortune? Sometimes a masked villain can offer more insight and discussion for a reader when their identity is kept secret than when they're unmasked.
>at the expense of the least favorable character?
But then who cares? If someone the fans don't give a shit about gets beat up, who cares? A lot of the people who hate "jobbing" really just don't like it when their favorite characters get beat up, which is a gay-ass mentality, and it's not just fans who think this way either. Writers often become fans of their own characters and their work suffers because they don't let anything actually bad happen to them, because their fan instincts are taking over.
Sounds fairly reasonable,I guess some characters are merely assets
I dunno. DBZ has a ton of jobbing, and most of the characters who job aren't my favorite. There's no reason to have a large group of characters when only 1-2 of those characters actually poses a threat to the villain of the week. It's Comic Vine-tier power level obsession
>>Whats the textbook example of how to handle a story involving multiple superheroes working together and all of them getting decent screentime?
New Mutants
Not him, but I have an idea for a villain in my story. He's incredibly intimidating, he doesn't mind hurting people, and he almost killed the hero at least once. As the hero tries to figure out who he is, a lot of the clues are leading to his brother. Hero's friends notice this, but he is in complete denial. It can't be him, he doesn't even live in the state. The idea of the villain being the one who he tells all his secrets, except the hero part, is ridiculous to him. Eventually he does realize it might be true by seeing a scar that he gave the villain in one fight. He has a hard time believing it until he takes the mask off the villain himself.
Hows the script coming along
Half way down and this is a really interesting thread
To add on to this, I think the key difference between a Mary-Sue and not is the effort. Superman always wins, but he still tries his hardest and gives it his all, and that's what makes his victories satisfying. A Mary-Sue just effortlessly succeeds, which is not entertaining at all
Don't forget the personality
They never deserved to be popular. Arctic Monkeys had one okay song, and most people pretended they were the best thing ever in order to pretend they were hip and with it.
There, I said it.
Straight outta Sup Forums