Who is currently the biggest source of cancer at Marvel? Bendis? Brevroot? Perlmutter?
I know that Marvels problems extend far beyond one individual but I feel at the very least that either Bendis or Brevroot's overall influence is big detriment to things overall and if either of them where to go away things might improve. Keyword is "might"
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What issue of Nailbiter is this?
For all the deserved shit Bendis gets he's just a symptom, so whoever is enabling him and the SJW crowd in the comics division is the real cancer.
Issue #7.
Editorial in general is poor finding and marketing new talent. This leads to them have to lean on "big" names like Bendis who are past their creative prime.
Anyone actually corporate is only to blame for not restructuring. They are not the source of bad ideas.
Thanks. I'm deleting it right now.
He is largely responsible for the annual event craze that Marvel has been up to for over a decade now.
Sure, you can argue it's the consumer's fault but he's the one who came up with Avengers Dissemble and House of M
Whoever hired Nick Spencer.
I was referring to editorial and corporate guys letting him roam free and do as he pleases with the IPs.
Basically, the people who let him do whatever bullshit event he shits in the meetings are more at blame here.
Bendis, because he started the SJW trip Marvel has been on forever. Everyone is just following his lead. Granted, he's not as on the nose as everyone else, but he laid the groundwork for it.
Marvel was SJW decades before Bendis and it's not really the issue.
The problem is that he's doing things purely so he can get praised for it and THAT is what has spread throughout the company. No one is trying to tell diverse stories simply because it's the logical thing to do. They are trying to "make a statement" every time.
Bendis is not an SJW, he's just a poser pandering to them because he likes being the centre of attention.
This is difficult because there's a lot of factors going on. Like for instance Marvel's arrogance towards its readers was a thing that's been happening since Quesada came on board and still continues to this day in the way some people at Marvel interact with fans and retailers, even after Quesada got promoted to a different department.
The other problem I think is that a lot of the writers don't really care that much about characterizations. I mean it's one thing to not want to deal with too much continuity (understandable) it's another when comics within the same months are way too fucking inconsistent with their characters. Now it's gotten to the point where being adamant about ignoring continuity is like another way of saying you're proud about having lower standards.
I think Bendis used to be good, around two decades ago, but he has fallen so far at this point.
Also, House of M is one of the worst things that has ever happened to Marvel Comics.
>Bendis, because he started the SJW trip Marvel has been on forever.
How so? Other then using Luke Cage and creating an OC that is basically his real life daughter I don't see how his writing is particularly SJW-y
I dunno. Marvel was always fairly liberal, but they were never having Carol Danvers give diatribes about the patriarchy. And there was a balance as you had Chuck Dixon, Steve Ditko, and Frank Miller and the rest of the Ayn Rand fanclub there. Hell, Ennis's Punisher run was basically Sup Forums the comic series. The industry used to kind of pride itself on its political incorrectness. Which is why I find the current climate so alienating.
He got in a position where he could be lazy and be praised for it. He just doesn't try anymore.
He started the trend of replacing established characters with minorities. The industry always did that on occasion, but Miles Morales was a hit so they decided to do that to just about everyone.
I think he refers to Miles Morales becoming the main Spider-Man in the Ultimate universe. But as others have said Bendis is not a full-SJW merely a pretender taking advantage of the situation to promote his OCs and waifus.
>Marvel was always fairly liberal, but they were never having Carol Danvers give diatribes about the patriarchy.
That's my point though. It's not really the beliefs that have changed but the way they are presented. It's not about telling good stories featuring beliefs, it's just about saying things to get praise now.
I believe that is called virtue-signaling.
I think you're right. Also, probably Marvel pressuring him and other to do their constant shitty events and relaunches.
Correct though it gets used too much as a buzzword so I try to avoid it.
>Ennis's Punisher run was basically Sup Forums the comic series
wut
Simple hyperbole.
Ennis' Punisher was a diatribe against the Bush administration and very much anti-war/anti-military industrial complex. The last arc all but spelled it out. And if you paid any attention at all you'd have noticed that in the second half of Ennis' run, the Token Decent Human Being tended to be black people (the exception being Barracuda).
>implying Sup Forums is pro-Bush
>implying that board isn't pro-fascist
>Marvel was always fairly liberal, but they were never having Carol Danvers give diatribes about the patriarchy.
Comics have ALWAYS been used for political expression, sometimes extremely on-the-nose ones. You just don't notice because controversial issues from another time don't come off as controversial to you.
Yep, pic related and he also told Gaul to STFU when she complained about Marvel being full of frat boys.
That shit started under Axel Alonso's tenure as EiC.
>Comics have ALWAYS been used for political expression, sometimes extremely on-the-nose ones.
This is why I think the people complaining on here (and on some other boards) that politics should be removed from comics usually have no idea what they're talking about.
That said, I do feel like a lot of the stuff people are complaining about today seem off compared to the 70's and 80's and even 90's attempts at being political. I think it has less to do with political stuff and more to do with weaker story craft and characterization, with the politics hoping to make up for it.
>Annual
>Implying Marvel don't do 4-5 events a year
It's great seeing him burn all his bridges. Nobody else will hire him and he's stuck being a writer for Marvel for the rest of his life.
It's horrible talent.
More in the writing than artistic department, but it's present in both.
The political "commentary", "virtue signalling",whatever you want to call it: that's a symptom. Good writers know how to tell a story by putting the story itself first and the politics second.
Event fatigue? Also a symptom. Well written and well handled events can be wonderful.
Lack of stable characterization, series after series being relaunched? Again, a symptom. Bad creators handle comics badly, they don't sell, relaunch.
So, yeah. It all boils down to "they're shit at their job".
It's Axel Alonso. It's the Editor-in-Chief who sets the tone.
> "I love the amount of diversity in Marvel’s line – and I give Axel Alonso all the credit for that."
> newsarama.com
Alonso, back when he was an editor, is the guy who hired Reginald Hudlin to write Black Panther, so he's always had that "minorities must write minority books (AND ONLY MINORITY BOOKS)" mentality.
That said the big problem with the line under Alonso is that he seems like kind of a guy who's embarrassed to be doing superhero comics. He's a Vertigo guy. It's not surprising that he seems to prefer "relevant" storylines to old-fashioned superheroics.
So what is this in reference to? All I get is some guy who composes music for vidya?
>No one is trying to tell diverse stories simply because it's the logical thing to do.
That's never been a logical thing to do to begin with.
>to promote his OCs and waifus.
and fetish
Writing stories about people similar to those who exist in the real world is entirely logical. It is not worthy or praise nor criticism. Pretending like it's special, unusual, or subversive is the odd part.
DC was suffering from this for years, like all the Lobdells shitting up New52, but they're getting pretty good at "building" new talent like Seeley, King, Orlando and unfortunately Margie Bennet.
Pic related although issues extend beyond just any one man. Bendis' flagrant disregard for continuity or characterization has led to the idea that you only need to "tell a good story" even though most of the time nobody does. Breevoort is the biggest proponent of the idea that pissing off and antagonizing your fanbase is a good idea because an angry fanbase is a motivated fanbase. Sana Amanat and probably some others have been the biggest proponents of the political/social justice garbage and hiring the bottom of the barrel webcomic creators for their stuff.
But all of that begins and ends with Alonso. He's the one who can rein them all in and tell them to cut that shit out. He's the one who can make his editors do his job. Yet he seems to have no desire to do anything but approve hip-hop variants. Stuff like "make it like the MCU" or shipping or the oversaturation of variants is likely not on him, rather they're ideas being pushed by higher ups but he still wields not at all insignificant power and chooses to do nothing and this sets the tone for everyone else. If the guy at the top doesn't care and you know he's never going to step in and tell you to knock it off, then why should you care?
...
I think some of the backlash is against the self-congratulatory publicity. Like making Jane Foster the new Thor might or might not be a good idea but the masturbatory press coverage about how wonderful and revolutionary Marvel is being is a turn-off, especially when we know Marvel can basically buy coverage due to the Disney connection.
Also people just get mad at being told that their favorite era of comics was somehow regressive. When Bucky replaced Steve Rogers, a lot of people hated it but they knew Steve would be back. Now people are afraid (probably wrongly) that if the white male heroes come back, that will be considered regressive, therefore Marvel won't do it.
I don't think this is true, like I said. Comics Alliance tried to drum up a mob against DC bringing back the white Wally West and nobody cared. Everybody knows deep down that Steve Rogers and Bruce Banner and so on are the "real" heroes and these are just temporary replacements. But there's that sweaty sense of fear that it might be politically incorrect to bring them back, which you didn't get in the '80s when Rhodey replaced Tony.
You'd expect it'd be unlikely that Quesada's right hand took all of his the bad traits and none of the good ones, but he managed to pull that off.
Quesada is basically a mainstream superhero comics artist. Being a product of the '90s he likes big, dumb stories (hence his friendship with Jeph Loeb). But I don't think he ever had that "I'm too good for this kind of comic" attitude.
I remember back when it was announced Quesada was no longer EIC there were people celebrating and saying things couldn't be worse than Quesada's later era of Marvel.
I think the issue is that a lot of it is not just the publicity. They seem to behave as if that the new characters (or new legacies, since many of them are preexisting characers) can't just star in stories on their own and treat it as if their comics absolutely have to preach PSAs. It becomes tokenism more than diversity.
But I do think it's largely the writers not being talented. You should be able to pull off in-universe references of backlash to Thor being a woman without it being cringey and yet they fail to pull it off.
>Comics Alliance tried to drum up a mob against DC bringing back the white Wally West and nobody cared.
Wait that actually happened? I don't even remember that happening.
Most of it was on Twitter. The editor couldn't stop yelling about the huge insult to representation in demoting the black Wally West. He complained about it in the CA roundtable on Rebirth too, but it didn't get any traction because even the biggest Diversitarian knows that there's a difference between a white guy with decades of history and a nonwhite guy with none.
>But I do think it's largely the writers not being talented.
This and the fact that comics are a medium for frustrated writers. The reach is not as big since the market is very specific (fat nerds in their 30s-40s for the most part, because young people prefer manga), hard to get into because of continuity, reboots and price. So all you get is mediocre writers writing about people on pajamas and scrapping any kind of publicity they can get out of it.
I kinda remembered when CA was taking shots at DC during the start of New 52 and it would be talked about at every comics board or something.
Guess that since this is the first I'd heard about the complaint that people are starting to filter rants.
I find it hard to take stuff like that seriously since black Wally was all over the promotional material purely because DC wanted to make it clear that he wasn't going away. Seems like they are just upset that they couldn't claim a "win".
And I'm sure none of these people cried about Jenni Ognats getting shafted, if they even knew Barry had a black granddaughter to begin with.
I just found that CA roundtable. I think it felt like almost half the comments seemed like people calling the roundtable out.
Not only that but White Wally has a large fanbase and he has a big SJW following thanks in part to the Young Justice cartoon and his Teen Titan cartoon appearances plus the DCAU and it was clear that DC was still pushing Black Wally in Teen Titans and in the Flash title plus they got him to bond with White Wally and White Wally acknowledged him as family...
Yeah the anti-White Wally shit was never going to fly especially with Black Wally also getting the spotlight, everyone got what they wanted so no one gave a fuck about that editor's shit.
so they like superheroes then?
Higher ups. Like Brevoort-high, not just editors.
They're lacking a solid direction for a lot of their properties and the ones that do have a direction are mostly poorly thought out.
Like Spencer's little thing he has in his Cap corner (Steve, Sam, Buckybolts) is probably the most well thought out thing in the entire MU right now. Don't care for the books, but he put thought into it and is working his way to it, which I appreciate. I imagine Ewing is next if Bendis or Slott don't do it.
With the general MU (CW2, Carol, various other singular characters, Monsters Unleashed, etc) seem very much throwing shit at a wall and seeing if it sticks.
Inhumans, Spider-man, X Men have had a direction for quite some time but Death of X and IvX were horrible and make it seem like they're regretting everything they did. And now they are throwing shit against the wall and seeing if it sticks.
Anyway it's mostly books that are off in their own little corner that are the best right now, because editors and higher ups don't give as big a shit about them.
Ennis pls
They'll be pro whatever is against the norm but I recall during the Bush era and before Sup Forums existed a lot of Sup Forums was anti-fascist and more left leaning but with Bush leaving, the 8 years of Obama and /n/ (the old one not the trainsportation one) becoming /stormfront/ and then getting nuked twice, it all made way to the rise of Sup Forums
Plus the rise of the SJW made a lot of anons go full right.
Give it 8 years and see how Trump fucks up the country and seeing how it's an anonymous board anons won't have problems flip flopping.
But more than anything they just want to be rebel contrarians.
Dan Scott and mark waid are too far down the sjw hole to recover. They need to leave.
I think Uncanny Avengers will also connect to the Cap corner or at least Duggan mentioned working with Spencer and the Tbolts writer to coordinate for Secret Empire.
For all his faults Quesada knew how to actually run a ship. I definitely do not agree with everything he did and all too often he would exercise authority where he probably shouldn't have in ways both major (Dead Means Dead, OMD and No More Mutants) and minor (MUH DADDY DIED OF LUNG CANCER SO NO MORE SMOKING). He also ruined the otherwise friendly rivalry between Marvel and DC because he (and Jemas though Joey Q kept at it long after Jemas was booted) went out of his way to antagonize them. Reminder that there was a proposed Batman/Daredevil crossover written by Bendis back in 2004 that got scuttled because of Quesada's potshots at DC causing Levitz to declare that as long as Quesada was at Marvel, DC would never work with them.
But I would 100% take Quesada over Alonso. Just not Quesada alone. Quesada and Jemas made a good team because Jemas wasn't afraid to take chances on books or lines and Quesada had the ability to manage the talent and have those translated to the page.
OtoH I hated some things about Jemas, especially his insane insistence that every single Marvel book had to switch to upper/lowercase lettering.
I think the line actually improved after Jemas left because Quesada lifted Jemas's bans on things like flashbacks, history references, thought balloons etc.
Jemas was one of those guys who fixed a lot of what needed fixing at Marvel but then couldn't stop tinkering and making arbitrary rules, sort of like Jim Shooter near the end of his reign.
CA effectively died when AOL killed it. It's kind of like EGM in that it came back but nobody really cares anymore. People got sick of the agenda-driven style of the website (both social justice and the obvious Marvel dick sucking) and I'm assuming the death and rebirth gave people an excuse to make a clean break.
Also having Andrew Wheeler, quite possibly the single dumbest person in the entire comics journalism medium (and I'm even including the retards over at The Mary Sue and places like that), as EIC doesn't exactly help matters. I haven't read the roundtable but I'm going to guess it was him who was the one throwing a tantrum about Wally.
>Reminder that there was a proposed Batman/Daredevil crossover written by Bendis back in 2004 that got scuttled because of Quesada's potshots at DC causing Levitz to declare that as long as Quesada was at Marvel, DC would never work with them.
I need more details on this, sound juicy
Bendis started the event trend that Marvel is suffering from today. Too many events in too little time give no impact to the comic books because writers dont have time to write about the consequences as they're writing tie-ins to the next event.
Look at the cluster fuck Civil War II was, if you look at the promo posters of Tony and Carol's side you will see heroes on the opposite side in the book. Also even with the 2 month delay, Bendis made the ending better, which was a literal Deus Ex Machina that solved nothing. It was an obvious cash grab with the movie and the only thing that came out of it was 2 heroes dead and 1 in a coma, which means hes coming back.
Now Inhuman vs X-Men is going on all because of the excuse that Cyclops is Hitler agenda that Marvel pushed for a whole year before revealing what he did. Which was literally fucking nothing as shown in Death of X.
Events should be a yearly thing that should be built up, like Hydra Cap for several months so it has an actual impact. Instead of 2-3 months.
This quarterly Marvel event has hurt they're sales as nobody is buying any first issue relaunches after an event and just waiting for the next event.
>Events should be a yearly thing that should be built up, like Hydra Cap for several months so it has an actual impact. Instead of 2-3 months.
No, they should be every other year best. Even its it's just one event book per year you aren't giving much time for writers to build things up from the previous event
I just remembered that Dead Means Dead fucked with Claremont's plans for Psylocke too. IIRC when she was killed by Vargas Claremont wanted to do a story later on where Jamie brought her back in her original body as a way of undoing the ninja shit. But he wrote the death, then the Dead Means Dead policy was implemented and it was too late to change it. Then Whedon brought back Colossus and that left the door open for Claremont to bring Psylocke back though still in Kwannon's body.
That's really it. Around 2003 or 2004, Jemas and Quesada took the Marvel/DC rival very seriously and would just take pot shots at DC whenever they could. Can't find any of the specifics from that time frame except for Quesada basically saying that DC's management was so shit they'd be better off having AOL run the company or something to to that effect. Around the same time, Bendis had met with Bob Wayne to talk about the possibility of doing Batman/Daredevil. But the comments had pissed off Levitz who supposedly made the declaration about DC never working with Marve while Quesada was there. Then at Wizard World Chicago of that year, there was a Geoff Johns/Bendis panel billed as a Marvel vs. DC panel which pissed off DC even more because they were never informed about it leading Wayne to say that DC wouldn't work with Marvel until their was a "change in management".
It didn't help that back in 2003, Morrison announced at SDCC he had signed an exclusive contract with DC, something he never bothered to tell Marvel about until right before the announcement which pissed Quesada off hardcore. The store goes that later on the two of them were arguing pretty openly on the floor with Quesada basically screaming at him and Morrison just going "fuck you and fuck your boss".
>Around the same time, Bendis had met with Bob Wayne to talk about the possibility of doing Batman/Daredevil
i thought that was planned to be a Bendis/Bru thing
Marvel's biggest problem seems to be that it's a cluster fuck of non interesting shit right now.
Marvel has been doing that shit for decades, but now you have the perspective of looking at that shit and saying it wasn't too bad. But best believe both Marvel and DC fans complained back then that their comics were tackling real world politics and siding with the left a majority of time
No fuck he didn't. That shit had been going on forever. Not even with just Spider-Man, there have been countless numbers of heroes being replaced by other races for decades among decades. It was just the timing in which he did it. He did it during an age where that certain thing implicated you believed in a certain sjw ideology.
Axel and Brevoort are both to blame
Miller is a lefty.
>He started the trend of replacing established characters with minorities.
lmao no he didn't
DC did it with tons of characters in the 90s and again in the mid 00s
>Conner Green Arrow
>Asian Batgirl, who was retarded in addition to being asian
>Kate Batwoman
>Whatever Damian is at the time
>Jaime Blue Beetle
>Renee Question
>Jason Firestorm
>Ryan Atom
Don't forget Jon Stewart
It would be more accurate to say that he started the trend of virtue signalling on all platforms by replacing established characters with minorities.
Can Jews really be classed as a fetish for other Jews? I mean, we don't say that Asian guys who like Asian girls have yellow fever.
Aaron is the worst writer at Marvel
Again he didn't do that either seeing how that how most characters race bent was marketed.
I mean he didn't but also note how specific that is. At some point people are just throwing everything on Bendis. It's just how he chose to go about it, not him doing it.
Perlmutter=Bendis>Brevroot
And by that i mean levels of cancer
>Who is currently the biggest source of cancer at Marvel? Bendis? Brevroot? Perlmutter?
Kill all three and worry about which made the biggest difference later.
>when it was announced Quesada was no longer EIC there were people celebrating and saying things couldn't be worse than Quesada's later era of Marvel.
And in those very threads (at least here), people who said "Alonso will either be Quesada's hand puppet or do worse" with examples cited for the latter.
We weren't that fucking naive here.
>causing Levitz to declare that as long as Quesada was at Marvel, DC would never work with them.
>Levitz who supposedly made the declaration about DC never working with Marve while Quesada was there
This is bullshit, top to bottom. Had it been the case they would have burned JLA/Avengers which very much took place during Quesada's tenure.
> they'd be better off having AOL run the company
No, that was Bill Jemas who said that when he wrote it into Marville.
I blame Kirby for leaving. They should get him and Stan back.
It's the only hope.
user...
yeah and Darwyn Cooke while they're at it
now I'm sad
He's not. I don't like him but he's not the worst major writer at Marvel (Bendis and Slott) and a lot of the writers below his level are much shittier (Leth, Whitley, North, Latour are a few that immediately spring to mind). Also Guggenheim is writing a major X-Men book and he has literally never written a good comic in his life. Hopeless is still around too.
Make no mistake, Aaron's stuff at Marvel has been largely bad mixed with some good and he has lots of little annoying quirks (specifically in trying to incorporate humor despite not being all that funny) but he's far from the worst guy on Marvel's roster. And that's more an indictment of just how bad things are over there.
>We weren't that fucking naive here.
Oh there were some posters who were. But they were usually the ones who don't read threads before replying and so just made some celebratory post.
Everything Slott wrote before taking over ASM was great
What's the trend of Marvel Comic's last 8 financial quarters?
When can we determine Marvel will sink to the point the Mouse will step in a threaten dissolution?
that doesn't mean as much when he's been on ASM for seven fucking years
SSM was objectively good.
Spencer's agenda
Bendis doesn't care
Perlmutter doesn't care
Hiring too many "Diverse" writers who write shitty pander stories, Chelsea Cain's of marvel.
We should make Garth Ennis head of Marvel because at least that would be at least entertaining instead of horrible pandering nonsense.
no it fucking wasn't
Jon is based though.
Not with that awful second half.